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Archive through January 02, 2005Felicia Nimue Ackerm22 1-02-05  7:50 pm
Archive through January 06, 2005David Burn22 1-06-05  12:15 am
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Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 1:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By David Burn (Woubit) on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:15 am:


Did the rescuer actually touch the sled?yes did he break off some part of the sled?no
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 8:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so, at the time of the puzzle statement is it true to say that we have Cedric wandering around outside somewhere potentially hostile? having been left there or allowed to get there by his son? who wanted him to die as a result? and in a private home belonging to a member of the family? a sled is produced? or shown? or found? by a child? Cedric's grandson? and by the showing of the sled Cedric is somehow saved?

does the sled ever leave the house?
is the sled shown to one or more relevant other people?

are some of cedric's family already looking for him? does anyone know he is outside? had he left the same private home that the sled is in?
are the police involved?

the saving of cedric:
is he saved because someone realises he is not where they thought he was? or realises that he is outside? or realises that he is alone? or realises that he hasn't come back? or realises that he is not at some other specific location? or someone becomes aware of his location now? or someone can now get to him when they couldn't before?

when the sled is used to save Cedric are any words spoken by the user? is so, is it necessary for the saving? does the user ask a question? make a statement? give a warning?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the sled more of a motivator (e. g. Cedric caused the sled owner to come into posession of the sled and hence engendered warm feelings which led to an effort to save Cedric)?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 08:15 am:


so, at the time of the puzzle statement is it true to say that we have Cedric wandering around
outside somewhere potentially hostile? yes having been left there or allowed to get there by his
son? yes who wanted him to die as a result? yes and in a private home belonging to a member of the
family? yes a sled is produced? yes or shown? yes or found? no by a child? yes Cedric's grandson? yes and by the
showing of the sled Cedric is somehow saved? yes

does the sled ever leave the house? no
is the sled shown to one or more relevant other people? no

are some of cedric's family already looking for him? no does anyone know he is outside? yes had he
left the same private home that the sled is in? yes
are the police involved? no

the saving of cedric:
is he saved because someone realises he is not where they thought he was? no or realises that he
is outside? no or realises that he is alone? no or realises that he hasn't come back? no or realises that
he is not at some other specific location? no or someone becomes aware of his location now? no or
someone can now get to him when they couldn't before? no

when the sled is used to save Cedric are any words spoken by the user? yes GOOOOD QUESTION:):):):)!!!!! is so, is it necessary
for the saving? yes does the user ask a question? no make a statement?yes give a warning? yesish

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 06:08 pm:


Was the sled more of a motivator yes (e. g. Cedric caused the sled owner to come into posession
of the sled and hence engendered warm feelings which led to an effort to save Cedric no)?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So there are people in the house who know Cedric is not there but do not believe he is in danger? And who ultimately rescue him when the sled is used to demonstrate/prove his peril?

Do they think he is running a specific errand? Traveling from/to a specific destination?

Do they believe Cedric is engaged in some activity relative to the sled? Or rather the grandson?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 06:07 pm:


So there are people in the house who know Cedric is not there yes but do not believe he is in
danger no? And who ultimately rescue him when the sled is used to demonstrate/prove his peril? no

Do they think he is running a specific errand? no Traveling from/to a specific destination? yesish

Do they believe Cedric is engaged in some activity relative to the sled? yope Or rather the
grandson? yes
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the grandson - relevant how old he was? under five? under 10? under 15?

the thing he said - did he mention the sled? his grandfather? the whereabaouts of his grandfather? did his statement include a suggestion that his grandfather might be in trouble? might be alone outside? had been forgotton somewhere?

did the grandson speak to the murderous son? to his own mother? to his grandmother? did he juts make a general statement to anyone who was there?

is it relevant how the grandfather was taken outside? was he taken out on some pretext? did he think he was being taken somewhere else? did he think he was being taken outside for some reason connected to the grandson? or for some reason connected to the sled?
did the murderer have a 'cover story' about where the old man was? did he say he was somewhere safe? somewhere specific?
did the murderer want people to assume that the old man had wandered off from the house? of his own accord?

should we be finding out anything else about the sled other than it belongs to the grandson and doesn't leave the house? has it been taken anywhere relevant recently? is the appearance of the sled relevant (I mean what it looks like)? is it's size relevant other than it being suitable for a child? did it once belong to the grandfather? to the murderous son? to anyone else relevant?
is the mother/wife relevant in all this?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 10:28 pm:


the grandson - relevant how old he was? yes under five? no under 10? possibly but not terribly likely under 15? possibly

the thing he said - did he mention the sled? yes his grandfather? no the whereabaouts of his
grandfather? yope did his statement include a suggestion that his grandfather might be in trouble? noish
might be alone outside? ditto had been forgotton somewhere? no

did the grandson speak to the murderous son? yes to his own mother?no to his grandmother? no did he
juts make a general statement to anyone who was there? no

is it relevant how the grandfather was taken outside? yes was he taken out on some pretext? no did
he think he was being taken somewhere else? no did he think he was being taken outside for
some reason connected to the grandson? no or for some reason connected to the sled? no
did the murderer have a 'cover story' about where the old man was? no did he say he was
somewhere safe? no somewhere specific? yes
did the murderer want people to assume that the old man had wandered off from the house? no
of his own accord? no

should we be finding out anything else about the sled other than it belongs to the grandson
and doesn't leave the house? yes has it been taken anywhere relevant recently? no is the appearance
of the sled relevant (I mean what it looks like)? yes is it's size relevant other than it being suitable
for a child? false assumption did it once belong to the grandfather? no to the murderous son? to anyone else
relevant? no
is the mother/wife relevant in all this? noish
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the sled a suitable size for the child in question? is it suitable for someone much younger?
is the sled a new possession of the child? has he just been given it? does he make some comment about the sled being too small for him? too big? unsuitable in some way?


so the murderer said that the grandfather was somewhere specific? in a building somewhere? in his own home? outside?
did he say this as a result of what the child with the sled said? or just before the child spoke about the sled?

the way the grandfather was taken outside - on a sled? in a car? by foot?

I'm still pretty unsure of the scenario here..
the grandfather is outside somewhere hostile? the murderous son is now back in his house? and his son is saying something to him while showing his sled? as a result of this the grandfather is saved? because the murderous son goes to get him? because the grandson goes to get him? because someone else goes to get him?

does this scenario end with the murderous son bringing the old man back home? with the grandson bringing him home? with someone else bringing him home?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

y Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 08:45 pm:


is the sled a suitable size for the child in question? no is it suitable for someone much younger? no
is the sled a new possession of the child? yes has he just been given it no does he make some
comment about the sled being too small for him? no too big? no unsuitable in some way? no


so the murderer said that the grandfather was somewhere specific? yes in a building somewhere? no in
his own home? no outside? yes
did he say this as a result of what the child with the sled said? no or just before the child spoke
about the sled? no

the way the grandfather was taken outside - on a sled yes in a car? no by foot no

I'm still pretty unsure of the scenario here..
the grandfather is outside somewhere hostile? yes the murderous son is now back in his house? yes
and his son is saying something to him while showing his sled? yes as a result of this the
grandfather is saved? yes because the murderous son goes to get him? yes because the grandson
goes to get him? no because someone else goes to get him? no

does this scenario end with the murderous son bringing the old man back home? yeswith the
grandson bringing him home? no with someone else bringing him home? no
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

has the grandson just found the sled? and assumed it is for him?
is this the same sled that the murderous son used to take the grandfather out?

by the showing of the sled and/or what the boy says does the murderous son realise that he will not get away with causing his father's death? so he might as well go and get him back?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

y Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 10:06 pm:


has the grandson just found the sled? no and assumed it is for him? no
is this the same sled that the murderous son used to take the grandfather out? no

by the showing of the sled and/or what the boy says does the murderous son realise that he
will not get away with causing his father's death? yesish so he might as well go and get him back? yesish
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does the grandson say something about what he intends to do with the sled? is he planning to go out with it? is he asking his dad to come with him? and his dad knows they might find the grandfather if they do go out?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 12:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 11:00 pm:


does the grandson say something about what he intends to do with the sled? yes is he planning to
go out with it? yes is he asking his dad to come with him? yesish and his dad knows they might find the
grandfather if they do go out? no
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

has the grandson just bought the sled? made it?
does he think it is rather too big for him? or rather too much for one person to handle?
does he say he wants someone else to come out with him? to try it out? or for another specific reason? does he ask his dad if he will come?
does he suggest going out to get the grandfather?

so we have two sleds.. the one that stays in the house and is shown by the grandson and the one that is used to take out the old man? is the ownership of this second sled relevant? is it owned by the murderous son? if so, could it just have easily been borrowed from a neighbour?
is it relevant why a sled was used to take out the old man rather than any other form of transport?
are these people living in an environment where sleds are more useful than other forms of transport at some times of year? are they people who would traditionally use sleds rather than other types of transport? Eskimos? (sorry - I know that's not the right word these days but not sure exactly which one is!)

is the father reluctant to go out with the son? does he say he will? does he say he won't? does he reply at all? does his reply mention the grandfather?

Just to check.. when the grandson shows the sled and says whatever he says, does he realise that he is acting in a way which will lead to the rescuing of his grandfather? does he know his grandfather is in peril? does he know he is missing? does he think he is still in the home? does he think he is somewhere else specific?

does the grandson suspect his father has tried to murder the grandfather? does he know that his father has taken the grandfather out on a sled?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 02:35 pm:


has the grandson just bought the sled?no made it? yes
does he think it is rather too big for him? no or rather too much for one person to handle? no
does he say he wants someone else to come out with him? yesishto try it out? no or for another specific
reason? yesdoes he ask his dad if he will come no
does he suggest going out to get the grandfather? no

so we have two sleds.. the one that stays in the house and is shown by the grandson and the
one that is used to take out the old man? yes is the ownership of this second sled relevant? yes is it
owned by the murderous son?yes if so, could it just have easily been borrowed from a neighbour? noish
is it relevant why a sled was used to take out the old man rather than any other form of
transport? yope
are these people living in an environment where sleds are more useful than other forms of
transport at some times of year?yes are they people who would traditionally use sleds rather than
other types of transport?yes Eskimos? possibly but not necessarily (sorry - I know that's not the right word these days but not
sure exactly which one is!) I think it's 'Inuit'

is the father reluctant to go out with the son? yes does he say he will? no does he say he won't?possibly but not necessarily does
he reply at allprobably does his reply mention the grandfather? mditto

Just to check.. when the grandson shows the sled and says whatever he says, does he realise
that he is acting in a way which will lead to the rescuing of his grandfathe yes does he know his
grandfather is in peril? yes does he know he is missing? yes does he think he is still in the home? no does
he think he is somewhere else specific? yes

does the grandson suspect his father has tried to murder the grandfather? yes does he know that
his father has taken the grandfather out on a sled? yes
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the sled the grandson shows to his father safe to use? Would he ordinarily have used the one the grandfather has? Is the grandson trying to force the father to get the other sled (and any attendant Cedrics)?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 09:08 pm:


Is the sled the grandson shows to his father safe to use? yes Would he ordinarily have used the
one the grandfather has? no Is the grandson trying to force the father to get the other sled no (and
any attendant Cedrics)? yes
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the sled which carried grandfather still out there with him? is it at home with the murderous son?

does the grandson ask his dad where his dad's sled is?
does he say he wants to borrow his father's sled? or wants to see it? does he say that there is some reason he cannot use his own sled?

is the grandson trying to trick his father? to shame him?

did the grandfather agree to be taken out? and left? did he accept it as something necessary? because he was old? was it part of a tradition? that very old folk would be left outside to die so as not to be a burden to others?

did the grandson want to tell his father that there was no need for the old man to die? that for some reason it was better that he live? some economic reason? some social reason?

was the sled badly made? did the father realise that the old man had skills, such as sled making, which would be useful to them? and changed his mind about helping the old man to die? or encouraging him to 'sacrifice' himself? or killing him?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 09:40 pm:


is the sled which carried grandfather still out there with him? yes is it at home with the murderous
son? no

does the grandson ask his dad where his dad's sled is? no
does he say he wants to borrow his father's sled? no or wants to see it? no does he say that there is
some reason he cannot use his own sled? no

is the grandson trying to trick his father? noish to shame him? yope

did the grandfather agree to be taken out? irrel and left? ditto did he accept it as something necessary? ditto
because he was old? ditto was it part of a tradition? yes that very old folk would be left outside to die so
as not to be a burden to others? yes

did the grandson want to tell his father that there was no need for the old man to die? no that for
some reason it was better that he live? yes some economic reason? no some social reason? yes

was the sled badly made? no did the father realise that the old man had skills, such as sled
making, which would be useful to them? no and changed his mind about helping the old man to
die? yes, but not for the reason you gave or encouraging him to 'sacrifice' himself? ditto or killing him? ditto

Finally, someone is ORT!!! You've nearly solved it, clever Hannah. Just one more little step. . .
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Soooo...

a man has followed his cultural beliefs and taken his aged father out into the cold on a sled? to 'allow' the father to die and so no longer be a burden to his family?
knowing this and being unhappy about it?, the man's son shows his father a sled he has just made? and says something about the sled which makes the father think again? it makes the father think that actually he should retrieve the old man?
is the father aroused to pity? to shame? to regret?
does his son say something which makes him realise that it is better for the community if the old man lives?
does his son say something which makes him realise the tradition is outdated?
does he realise that he himself might be treated like that one day unless he breaks the tradition now?
does the son say, 'I've made this sled so that I can take you out into the cold when you are too old?'
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

y Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:16 pm:


Soooo...

a man has followed his cultural beliefs and taken his aged father out into the cold on a sled? yes to
'allow' the father to die and so no longer be a burden to his family? yes
knowing this and being unhappy about it? yes, the man's son shows his father a sled he has just
made? yes and says something about the sled which makes the father think again? yes it makes the
father think that actually he should retrieve the old man? yes
is the father aroused to pity? no to shame? yope to regret? yope
does his son say something which makes him realise that it is better for the community if the
old man lives? yope
does his son say something which makes him realise the tradition is outdated? noish
does he realise that he himself might be treated like that one day unless he breaks the
tradition now? yes
does the son say, 'I've made this sled so that I can take you out into the cold when you are
too old?' YES!!!!!!!!!!!!
******* SPOILER************** This puzzle is a famous parable: Back in the days when the earth was new & old people were despised (as opposed to now??), when people got old, their "loving" families took them by sled to a mountain to die. When Cedric got old, his son did this to him. Upon returning home, Cedric's son found his own son--Cedric's gradnson--in the cellar making a sled. "What are you doing?" Cedric's son asked. "I'm making your sled for when it's time for me to leave you on the mountain," Cedric's grandson replied. So Cedric's son went & got his father & brought him back home. Think about it next time you hear someone say health care should be rationed by age. . . .and also thoink about my new puzzle sat the bottom of the page.
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle, thanks :)
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had you heard the parable before? I was afraid many people would & so would solve the puzzle quickly.
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No I hadn't - it occurred to me whilst writing the penultimate question. It might well be one I pass on though...
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A nice thing for a vicar to use in a sermon, too, I should think (although I'm basically an ignoramous about religion, as forum members have doubtless already noticed; so why should I guve serman suggestions??)
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sermon suggestions come from all kinds of sources.... :)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go to bed now - just when you have a new puzzle :(
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I'll be looking forward to more Clever Hannah questions tomorrow:):):):)
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 3:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A great puzzle!!!!!
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks!! Please check out my others!!!!

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