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Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - Jan 2005 » [woubit] As the sparks fly upward « Previous Next »

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Archive through January 11, 2005David Burn22 1-11-05  2:54 pm
Archive through January 11, 2005Simon Downham22 1-11-05  5:02 pm
Archive through January 11, 2005Alizon22 1-11-05  9:13 pm
Archive through January 12, 2005David Burn22 1-12-05  9:31 am
Archive through January 12, 2005Alizon22 1-12-05  11:17 pm
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Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An entertainer?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A gynacologist?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it rather an artistic profession?
medical profession?

Was she a noblewoman?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A prophet(ess)?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:17 pm:

a midwife? no a fool? no, but help is at hand...

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:18 pm:

An entertainer? well, she was an actress :)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:19 pm:

A gynacologist? no

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:21 pm:

was it rather an artistic profession? see above
medical profession? no

Was she a noblewoman? no

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:22 pm:

A prophet(ess)? the part she played was that of a saint, so to some extent this is correct :)
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An astrologer?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:25 pm:

An astrologer? no - you have done what you need in terms of identifying the person whose task it was to explain the events of the pageant to Catherine. What you now need to discover is what the themes of the pageant might have been...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shame on me, I thought that back then, even female roles were played by men...

So that lady appears from nowhere during the pageant and she says something relevant to our Event A? Like that she saw a constellation? or something else? had a dream? a revelation? relating to the future King?

Was she the expert to explain the matter, or did they need another person to do this?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well if she played a Saint, lets see ..

Something religious?
Death?
Redemption & Salvation?
Portents for the future?
The crusades?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it about the fortunes of the nations?
About war?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There were certainly some allegories, right?

If so, did they relate to the birth of the not-even-conceived son?

The period of future reign of Arthur?

Anything else?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:30 pm:

Shame on me, I thought that back then, even female roles were played by men... that did not happen until about a hundred years later

So that lady appears from nowhere during the pageant and she says something relevant to our Event A? she was due to play a part in the pageant - her role was to act as a kind of narrator Like that she saw a constellation? well, she certainly spoke about a constellation or something else? had a dream? a revelation? relating to the future King? and what she said connected the constellation with the future King, yes :) Now, what connection might there be between the Prince of Wales and the Great Bear?

Was she the expert to explain the matter, or did they need another person to do this? she said words that had been written by the people who designed the pageant

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:30 pm:

Well if she played a Saint, lets see ..

Something religious? not really
Death? no
Redemption & Salvation? no
Portents for the future? yesish
The crusades? like Thomas a Becket, the Crusades were long over by the time of Henry VII :)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:32 pm:

Was it about the fortunes of the nations? well, of one particular nation
About war? no

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:33 pm:

There were certainly some allegories, right? yes, indeed there were :)

If so, did they relate to the birth of the not-even-conceived son? not really, but...

The period of future reign of Arthur? yes - now, focus on that, and imitate the action of a Modern Major-General...

Anything else? not that matters
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oops, please ignore most of my questions of 11.30 - I misread one of your answers

So, would it be helpful to find which saint it was? If so, Virgin Mary? St.Catherine? Another saint?

Did she say or do something relevant, or something relevant happened to her? Was she happy with the outcome?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;"


Relevant?

(And Yes David I was aware that the crusades occurred well beofre Enery's time!) :)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something like the happily-ever-after stuff? Like: you will win many battles, and bear a son?

Could you pls specify what did you mean by the Major General?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's;" ?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:40 pm:

So, would it be helpful to find which saint it
was? not really If so, Virgin Mary? St.Catherine? Another saint? Saint Catherine, complete with wheel, did appear in the pageant, but the Saint who explained to the Princess the symbols used in the pageant was Saint Ursula

Did she who? say or do something relevant, or something relevant happened to her? Was she happy with the outcome? Saint Ursula explained to Catherine the significance of some of the images used in the pageant. Catherine would have been wholly unable to understand what was happening, for she spoke no English. There was no particular "outcome" - but what might a pageant celebrating this particular future King have been based upon?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Arcturus, rex quondam rexque futurus? J
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

be aware of double posts!
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait.. Saint Ursula symbolises Ursa Major!
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:45 pm:

"I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;"

Relevant? no, but improvement was not long in coming :)

(And Yes David I was aware that the crusades occurred well beofre Enery's time!) sorry :( I never know whether to assume in a historical puzzle that people know everything, or anything, or nothing

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:46 pm:

Something like the happily-ever-after stuff? no Like: you will win many battles, no and bear a son? well, it was certainly important that this occurred...

Could you pls specify what did you mean by the Major General? help is at hand - see below

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:46 pm:

"I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's;" ? exactly and precisely so :) For Alizon, who may not be a Gilbert and Sullivan fan, the Major-General is a character in an operetta called The Pirates of Penzance, who sings a song in which he claims to know the history of, among other things, King Arthur of Camelot. Now then...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A fight between the good and the evil?

Did it produce any relevant effect upon Catherine? Was she scared?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Sparks" - would they occur from the friction of metal on stone?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:48 pm:

Arcturus, rex quondam rexque futurus? precisely - very well done indeed :) Arcturus, the brightest star in Ursa Major, is the Latin name for Arthur. The reign of the original King Arthur formed one of the central themes of the pageant. You and Simon are making a very fine team :)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:50 pm:

Wait.. Saint Ursula symbolises Ursa Major! she may very well have done :) But why, with the legend of King Arthur to draw upon, was it necessary to link Prince Arthur with a constellation?

Nearly there... very good work, the pair of you :)
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:52 pm:

A fight between the good and the evil? no

Did it produce any relevant effect upon Catherine? Was she scared? most unlikely - since she couldn't speak English, she would have had no idea what was happening, and royal pageants went on for hours, so that she was almost certainly bored rigid rather than anything else

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:56 pm:

"Sparks" - would they occur from the friction of metal on stone? perhaps, but the sparks aren't relevant - they were only there to provide a pointer to the Book of Job, in which there is an allegory concerning the Great Bear and Arcturus, later used by Gregory the Great when he drew up his Christian cosmology. They are of no further significance to the puzzle.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps to suggest that he was, in some way, the original Arthur's heir?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was his position in any way weak so that they felt it needed some reinforcement?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A very Modern Major-General is here to salute Alizon's efforts!

Major
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:00 am:

Perhaps to suggest that he was, in some way, the original Arthur's heir? not quite, but the idea certainly was that England hoped their new King Arthur would be as great a ruler as his legendary namesake. However, this pageant was not merely about Arthur's future and England's, but about...
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:02 am:

Was his position in any way weak so that they felt it needed some reinforcement? the Prince's? No. Henry VII was a successful ruler; the kingdom was in a remarkably strong position considering the civil war that it had just been through. Arthur of Camelot was, of course, also a successful King of England. However...
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A very Modern Major-General is here to salute Alizon's efforts! And the very model of a Modern Major-General he is too :) Thank you, Simon.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you very much indeed, Simon! J

TO suggest that Arthur was going to become immortal?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guenevere and stuff involved?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:09 am:

To suggest that Arthur was going to become immortal? no - the question is not so much what the link between Arthur and the Great Bear was, but why it was considered necessary to introduce it at all. Why not just stick with the legend of Arthur of Camelot?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:11 am:

Guenevere and stuff involved? And "Gallop", gasped Joris, "for Aix is in sight!" Guenevere and stuff msot certainly relevant, yes :)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So that, they could make a good use of Arthur of Camelot for his brave deeds but .. just could not, for obvious reasons, have used any allegoric representation of his marital (and his wife's extramarital) lives, right? It would moreover probably be a great offence to suggest that the Queen might, some day, act similarly as Guenevere?

And, to avoid this, they preferred to use the innocent constellation?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So that, they could make a good use of Arthur of Camelot for his brave deeds but .. just could not, for obvious reasons, have used any allegoric representation of his marital (and his wife's extramarital) lives, right? It would moreover probably be a great offence to suggest that the Queen might, some day, act similarly as Guenevere?

And, to avoid this, they preferred to use the innocent constellation? Till at length into Aix Roland galloped and stood - congratulations :)

***** SPOILER *****

When Catherine of Aragon came to England to be married to Prince Arthur of Wales, elder son of Henry VII and heir to the English throne, a great pageant was held in her honour as she entered the City of London.

Of course, one of the central themes of the pageant was the legend of Arthur, the Once and Future King - much show was made of the greatness of England under Arthurian rule.

But this pageant was primarily to commemorate a marriage, and the people's hope for the continuation of the Tudor dynasty of which Henry VII was the first King. In that respect, Arthur of Camelot was a far from ideal subject. He had an incestuous relationship with his sister, his wife an adulterous affair with Lancelot - and, most importantly, Arthur and Guinevere had no children.

In order to prevent the people from pondering these ill omens, a rather tenuous link between Prince Arthur and the star Arcturus in Ursa Major was woven into the pageant, more by way of a distraction than anything else. Had the pageant concerned itself only with King Arthur, it might not have had entirely the desired effect. Fortunately, there was a bear...

Well done Alizon and Simon for finishing this puzzle, and thanks to all who contributed along the way. Another woubit puzzle will be coming soon to a monitor near you... :)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And thank you very much, David, for this excellent puzzle, and both you and my team-mate Simon for keeping me company in these small hours J. I am really happy to re-discover, after many years, my old hobby and moreover, find people who have patience enough to share it with me. J.

Btw., David, have you ever considered to become a history/literature/whatever teacher? You would be certainly able to transform even the most boring lesson into the most exciting adventure...

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