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Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The fact that Norina is a lesbian has recently cased a problem in her friendship with some straight women. They are not bigots, nor is she.They aren't attracted to her, nor does she think they are. She isn't attracted to them, nor do they think she is. So what's the problem?????
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant in what country this takes place? Could it take place in the United States?

Could a similar situation arise between a gay man and his straight male friends? between a lesbian and her straight male friends?

Does Norina have a girlfriend/wife/partner? Do these other women have boyfriends/husbands? Does this matter?

Is marriage relevant? childbearing? adoption?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 11:16 pm:

Is it relevant in what country this takes place? noish Could it take place in the United States? yes

Could a similar situation arise between a gay man and his straight male friends? yes between a lesbian and her straight male friends no

Does Norina have a girlfriend/wife/partner? yes Do these other women have boyfriends/husbands? yes Does this matter? yes

Is marriage relevant? nor more relevant than any other sort of romantic partnership childbearing? noadoption? no

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mosquito (Mosquito)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 1:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a changing room situation that none of them is comfortable with?

Do the friends want to swing, and none of them is interested in Norina's partner?

Or is there another activity that involves couples splitting into two groups?
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the important thing that Norina has a female partner and her friends have male partners? Could a situation like this arise if Norina were bisexual (but still had a female partner)? if some of her friends were bisexual (but still had male partners)?

Do they all get together and play men versus women at Trivial Pursuit, and the other women get in trouble with their boyfriends because the women's team is larger?

Has Norina met her friends' boyfriends? Have the other women met Norina's girlfriend?

Are these people's ages relevant? Presumably they are all adults? Are they young? Middle-aged? Old?

Is anyone's occupation relevant? anyone's religion?
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

multiple definitions of "gay" relevant?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

different leisure activities of men and women relevant? do the straight women have a gathering each Saturday while their husbands are watching the soccer match? but Nora is never invited to such party because her friends think that she would prefer to spend the time with her partner?

Another idea: Do Nora and her female friends still something else of relevance have in common? are they colleagues?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Mosquito (Mosquito) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:11 am:

Is there a changing room situation that none of them is comfortable with? no

Do the friends want to swing, and none of them is interested in Norina's partner? no

Or is there another activity that involves couples splitting into two groups? yope

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:12 pm:

Is the important thing that Norina has a female partner and her friends have male partners? yes Could a situation like this arise if Norina were bisexual (but still had a female partner)? if some of her friends were bisexual (but still had male partners)? yes. GOOOOOOOOOD QUESTION!!!!!!!

Do they all get together and play men versus women at Trivial Pursuit, and the other women get in trouble with their boyfriends because the women's team is larger? no

Has Norina met her friends' boyfriends? irrel Have the other women met Norina's girlfriend? irrel

Are these people's ages relevant?see next answer Presumably they are all adults? yes Are they young? irrel Middle-aged? irrel Old? irrel

Is anyone's occupation relevant? no anyone's religion? no

By Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:52 pm:

multiple definitions of "gay" relevant? no

By Jens Weber (Sundowner) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 05:17 pm:

different leisure activities of men and women relevant? no do the straight women have a gathering each Saturday while their husbands are watching the soccer match? no but Nora is never invited to such party because her friends think that she would prefer to spend the time with her partner? no

Another idea: Do Nora and her female friends still something else of relevance have in common? no are they colleagues? irrel
Jennifer (Tigger32382)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does her partner and the male partners of her friends have some issue with each other? Is her partner bisexual?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Jennifer (Tigger32382) on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 08:03 pm:

does her partner and the male partners of her friends have some issue with each other? no Is her partner bisexual? irrel
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so - the problem here is to do with the fact that the partners as a group include both sexes? is it true to say that if the 'partners' as a group were all of one sex no such problem would arise? and it wouldn't matter which sex that was?

are social events relevant? dinner parties? does it make seating difficult?

do the partners do something relevant while the friends are doing something else together? is some provision made for the partners as a group by the friends? and this doesn't work so well if the partners include both sexes?

is any leisure activity relevant?

is this a potential problem on just one occasion? several? many?

for this problem to occur is it necessary that the partners get together in any way as a group? that the friends do?

are children relevant? pets? hobbies?
got to ask - is healthcare relevant?
is any crime a part of this puzzle?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 06:20 pm:

so - the problem here is to do with the fact that the partners as a group include both sexes? yes is it true to say that if the 'partners' as a group were all of one sex no such problem would arise? yesand it wouldn't matter which sex that was? yes

are social events relevant? yes dinner parties? no does it make seating difficult? no

do the partners do something relevant while the friends are doing something else together? no is some provision made for the partners as a group by the friends? no and this doesn't work so well if the partners include both sexes? no

is any leisure activity relevant? yes

is this a potential problem on just one occasion? no several? see next answer many? yes

for this problem to occur is it necessary that the partners get together in any way as a group? no that the friends do? yes

are children relevant? no pets? no hobbies? no
got to ask - is healthcare relevant? no
is any crime a part of this puzzle? no

-------------------------------------------------
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is just one leisure activity relevant?

is the problem that Norina's partner comes along with the friends when they are doing a joint leisure activity? because it is something that is segregated by gender? and the other friends don't want a partner with them?

is the situation that the friends are engaging in a leisure activity together? and the problem concerns what the partners do while the friends are doing the leisure activity?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 09:30 pm:

is just one leisure activity relevant? this depends on how you individuate leisure activities. Probably the least misleading ansdwer is noish

is the problem that Norina's partner comes along with the friends when they are doing a joint leisure activity? yesish because it is something that is segregated by gender? yope and the other friends don't want a partner with them? yes

is the situation that the friends are engaging in a leisure activity together?yes and the problem concerns what the partners do while the friends are doing the leisure activity?no
Mosquito (Mosquito)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the women doing something that men don't like to do, e.g. shopping, having a facial, etc, and don't want someone's partner butting in? Because they don't want a relative stranger butting into their crowd?

But if this is the case, why would they let it develop into a problem -- couldn't they just tell Norina?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 1:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Mosquito (Mosquito) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 01:06 am:

Are the women doing something that men don't like to do, e.g. shopping, having a facial, etc, and don't want someone's partner butting in? no Because they don't want a relative stranger butting into their crowd? no

But if this is the case, why would they let it develop into a problem -- couldn't they just tell Norina? well, they do tell her, but she doesn't consider their reason a good one
Mosquito (Mosquito)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 7:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

well, they do tell her, but she doesn't consider their reason a good one

Is Norina insisting on something that her friends don't like? That makes them enjoy her company/their gatherings less?

If this is the case, does it really matter whether the specific issue is Norina's lesbian partner?

It sounds as if this friendship is in immediate need of being put out of its misery!
Katy (Katy)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the leisure activity involve (to any extent):

eating?
drinking?
playing sport / doing active things (e.g. hiking)?
being pampered?
Being in a club (e.g. cooking, reading)?
Fishing?
Watching television?
Listening to music?


Does Norina's girlfriend join them at these activities? Do N's friends' husbands / partners join them?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So they're upset because her partner is included in some particular activity and theirs aren't, essentially? Is travel relevant? Camping? Any sort of accomodations?
Rachel (Myth)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

any hugging or partner-like activity involved?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Mosquito (Mosquito) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 07:37 am:


well, they do tell her, but she doesn't consider their reason a good one

Is Norina insisting on something that her friends don't like? yes That makes them enjoy her company/their gatherings less? possibly

If this is the case, does it really matter whether the specific issue is Norina's lesbian partner? yesish

It sounds as if this friendship is in immediate need of being put out of its misery! not really--you'll see
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Katy (Katy) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 09:56 am:

Does the leisure activity involve (to any extent):

eating?
drinking?
playing sport / doing active things (e.g. hiking)?
being pampered?
Being in a club (e.g. cooking, reading)?
Fishing?
Watching television?
Listening to music? It could but needn't be any of these


Does Norina's girlfriend join them at these activities? possiblyDo N's friends' husbands / partners join them? no

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 04:24 pm:

So they're upset because her partner is included in some particular activity and theirs aren't, essentially? yope Is travel relevant? no Camping? no Any sort of accomodations? no
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Rachel (Myth) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 06:33 pm:

any hugging or partner-like activity involved? no
Johanna (Buzzard)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To clarify something I think you said earlier: all that matters is that Norina's partner is of a different sex than her friends' partners? So a similar situation could arise if Norina were straight and all her friends were gay?

Do Norina and her friends talk about their partners in the course of this leisure activity? Do they look at pictures of their partners? Do they use any items belonging to their partners?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Johanna (Buzzard) on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 10:47 pm:

To clarify something I think you said earlier: all that matters is that Norina's partner is of a different sex than her friends' partners? If I did, I was careless.(Sorry:(:() What I should have said is what matters is that Norina, her partner, & all her friebnds are the same sex BUT her friends' partners are all of the opposite sex So a similar situation could arise if Norina were straight and all her friends were gay? No, but it could occur with a gay man & his straight married male friends

Do Norina and her friends talk about their partners in the course of this leisure activity? irrel Do they look at pictures of their partners? no Do they use any items belonging to their partners? no

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ostap Bender (Ostap)
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could the same issue occur in a mixed group of straight men and women, and their respective partners?
Does it matter that in the whole group of Nora, her friends, and all their partners there are 2 women more than men?
Does the relevant leisure activity require pairs of one man and one woman? if so: ballroom dancing?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Ostap Bender (Ostap) on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 06:31 pm:

Could the same issue occur in a mixed group of straight men and women, and their respective partners? no
Does it matter that in the whole group of Nora, her friends, and all their partners there are 2 women more than men? no
Does the relevant leisure activity require pairs of one man and one woman? no if so: ballroom dancing? no
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so we have Norina and her female friends engaging in a leisure activity together? something which partners are traditionally not included in? because they are of a different gender? or because they are partners, not friends?

and Norina's partner sometimes comes with the friends? and this causes problems? annoys the other friends? makes them feel something is unfair?

is there only a problem on the occasions that Norina's partner comes with the friends? if she stayed away would the friends be fine about it?

is money relevant? paying shares? do the friends think Norina is somehow getting something for nothing? or paying less than her share?

the leisure activity - does it involve staying away from home? going to someone's house? just getting together to socialise? is it relevant where they do it?

by going with the friends does Norina's partner somehow change the nature of the leisure activity? does she 'spoil it' for the friends? does she make it more expensive? more difficult to arrange?

would there still be a problem if the other friends had no partners?

is the problem that there is some unfairness in the way that Norina's partner is treated compared with the way their partners are treated?

is it relevant where this happens? in the US?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 07:34 pm:

so we have Norina and her female friends engaging in a leisure activity together? yes something which partners are traditionally not included in? yes because they are of a different gender? possibly or because they are partners, not friends? possibly

and Norina's partner sometimes comes with the friends? yes and this causes problems? yes annoys the other friends? yes makes them feel something is unfair? yes

is there only a problem on the occasions that Norina's partner comes with the friends? see next answer if she stayed away would the friends be fine about it? yes, but Norina would resent not being able yto bring her partner

is money relevant? no paying shares? no do the friends think Norina is somehow getting something for nothing? no or paying less than her share? no

the leisure activity - does it involve staying away from home? possibly going to someone's house? possiblyjust getting together to socialise? yes is it relevant where they do it? no

by going with the friends does Norina's partner somehow change the nature of the leisure activity? yope does she 'spoil it' for the friends? yesish does she make it more expensive? no more difficult to arrange? no

would there still be a problem if the other friends had no partners? no

is the problem that there is some unfairness in the way that Norina's partner is treated compared with the way their partners are treated? yes

is it relevant where this happens? any place where gay relationships are at least somewhat acceptedin the US? possibly
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

do the friends just think it is unfair that their partners can't come too? or would they just rather not have Norina's partner there because they don't know her particularly?

so far it seems that Norina's friends just don't want to socialise with Norina's partner yet she still brings her along - are we missing something else important?

should we be trying to find out why Norina's partner can come too when the other partners can't? can the leisure activity only be enjoyed by one gender at a time?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:09 pm:

do the friends just think it is unfair that their partners can't come too? yes or would they just rather not have Norina's partner there because they don't know her particularly? no

so far it seems that Norina's friends just don't want to socialise with Norina's partner yet she still brings her along - are we missing something else important? yes

should we be trying to find out why Norina's partner can come too when the other partners can't? yes can the leisure activity only be enjoyed by one gender at a time? yope
John Morahan (Wunderland)
Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they having something like a "girls night out" and they don't want anyone bringing their partners?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By John Morahan (Wunderland) on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 12:21 am:

Are they having something like a "girls night out" and they don't want anyone bringing their partners? YES!!
***********SPOILER **************
Norina & her friends have a longstanding tradition of "girls' night out." After coming out as a lesbian, Norina thinks she ought to be able to bring her partner, who, after all, is a "girl." But Norina's friends think of "girls' night out" as a night for friendship, not romance. This puzzle is based on a question submitted to The New York Times Magazine's "Ethicist" column. Sorry it was so easy, & please check out my new, harder puzzle at the bottom ogf the page.
Mosquito (Mosquito)
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 2:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It does not sound as if Norina wants to be invited out with these friends anymore, which is lucky, as she probably won't be!
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe she does but thinks she should be able to bring her lover.
Mosquito (Mosquito)
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 1:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, but the point is that the friends do not think so. Norina is being deliberately obtuse when she claims that "girls' night out" means that anyone can come as long as they have the right bits. I am assuming that these friends have been going out as a group for a long time, previously without Norina's partner. So what do they have to do -- form a club with themselves as the members, and have a "Ranch Dressing Club" night out? Plan an evening and issue specific invitations?

If Norina "thinks she should be able to bring her partner", when this is against the wishes of the other participants, they are better off without her anyway. If she cares so little about the wishes of her friends, I wonder how she treats her enemies (and how many she has got!)
Nimue (Nimue)
New member
Username: Nimue

Post Number: 4420
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why not likewise criticize the friends for caring so little about Norina's feelings? I think that the conflict here lacks clear wrong & right sides.

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