| Author | Message | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2284 Registered: 8-2001 |
A very conservative Catholic university once considered adopting a policy of expelling any unmarried student who engaged in sexual intercourse. Leaving aside the question of how the school would discover the miscreants, the administration decided against the policy for an interesting & surprising reason. What was it?? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 356 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the reason theological in nature? Is it conceivable that an evangelical University considering a similar policy might reject it for the same reason? | ||
| Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2006 |
Was/is the university all male? All female? Relevant? Relevant that this policy might encourage the students to marry? And live off-campus? And not go to school anymore? Era relevant? Country relevant? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2286 Registered: 8-2001 |
Logician (Logician) New member Username: Logician Post Number: 356 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the reason theological in nature? yope Is it conceivable that an evangelical University considering a similar policy might reject it for the same reason? yes Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl) New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was/is the university all male? no but irrel All female? ditto Relevant? no Relevant that this policy might encourage the students to marry? no And live off-campus? no And not go to school anymore? no Era relevant? yesishCountry relevant? no | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2007 |
Did someone point out a flaw in the argument? Like "Adam and Eve weren't married...and they populated the entire planet"? Was it anything like they would have had to expel so many people, there would be no college left? Anything to do with the administrators themselves (eg they were worried one of them might break the rule)? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2288 Registered: 8-2001 |
Enjay (Enjay) New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Did someone point out a flaw in the argument? yope Like "Adam and Eve weren't married...and they populated the entire planet"? not that Was it anything like they would have had to expel so many people, there would be no college left? no Anything to do with the administrators themselves (eg they were worried one of them might break the rule)? no | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 719 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was it that, in expelling them, they (the administrators) would be committing a sin themselves? Or that exposing the "miscreants" would leave the administrators open to charges of voyeurism, or such? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2289 Registered: 8-2001 |
Woodworm (Woodworm) New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 719 Registered: 3-2006 Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was it that, in expelling them, they (the administrators) would be committing a sin themselves? no Or that exposing the "miscreants" would leave the administrators open to charges of voyeurism, or such? no | ||
| Foulglory (Foulglory)
New member Username: Foulglory Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2007 |
Was it during the: 21st Century 20th 19th 18th Before? Maybe they could just get married? | ||
| Bentarm (Bentarm)
New member Username: Bentarm Post Number: 984 Registered: 6-2001 |
Did they decide on a different punishment for students caught having extra-marital intercourse? Decide that it wasn't the school's business to punish them at all? Decide that it was actually ok? After the decision was made, would it have been possible to be a student at the school and be openly in a sexual relationship with someone to whom you weren't married? Could an Islamic school have made the same decision for the same reason? | ||
| Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
New member Username: Emeraldink Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2007 |
Was the argument against punishment that they should help the sinners, not to drive them away from church? | ||
| Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2006 |
The yopeishly theological reason: relates to -The Bible -Ideas of how Christians should behave towards one another -General "rules" regarding morals -Christian tradition (that is to say, other Christian writings or thinkings than the Bible) Is there anything that should be discovered regarding the students attending this university? They were all munks or nuns so did not need the anti-sex regulation? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2297 Registered: 8-2001 |
Foulglory (Foulglory) New member Username: Foulglory Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2007 Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was it during the: 21st Century 20th 19th 18th Before? Maybe they could just get married? Bentarm (Bentarm) New member Username: Bentarm Post Number: 984 Registered: 6-2001 Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Did they decide on a different punishment for students caught having extra-marital intercourse? irrel Decide that it wasn't the school's business to punish them at all? irrel Decide that it was actually ok? no After the decision was made, would it have been possible to be a student at the school and be openly in a sexual relationship with someone to whom you weren't married? I don't know--maybe there was some milder sort of sanction Could an Islamic school have made the same decision for the same reason? Not exactly the same reason. A similar one? I don't know enough about Islam to answer that | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2298 Registered: 8-2001 |
Username: Emeraldink Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 8:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the argument against punishment that they should help the sinners, not to drive them away from church? no Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl) New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) The yopeishly theological reason: relates to -The Bible -Ideas of how Christians should behave towards one another -General "rules" regarding morals -Christian tradition (that is to say, other Christian writings or thinkings than the Bible) none of the above Is there anything that should be discovered regarding the students attending this university? no They were all munks or nuns so did not need the anti-sex regulation? no Nimue (Nimue) New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2297 Registered: 8-2001 Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 7:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Foulglory (Foulglory) New member Username: Foulglory Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2007 Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was it during the: 21st Century 20th 19th 18th Before? on fact, it was the 20th but any of these is possible Maybe they could just get married? irrel Bentarm (Bentarm) New member Username: Bentarm | ||
| Kdoc (Kdoc)
New member Username: Kdoc Post Number: 726 Registered: 7-2001 |
did the administration decide that the rule would produce unwanted effects? for them? for the students? did they think it would somehow bring the college into disrepute? make them look ridiculous? make them look bad in some way? did they decide it would be ineffective in producing the result they wanted? did they think the rule might be illegal for some reason? immoral? cost them money in some way? be unworkable? would they still have decided against the policy if the sanction had been suspension rather than expulsion? if the misdemeanour had been something else, say drinking alcohol underage? was there decision based on the Constitution in some way? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2299 Registered: 8-2001 |
Kdoc (Kdoc) New member Username: Kdoc Hi Hannah!!! Welcome back!!! Post Number: 726 Registered: 7-2001 Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) did the administration decide that the rule would produce unwanted effects? yope for them? yopefor the students? yope did they think it would somehow bring the college into disrepute? yope make them look ridiculous? yope make them look bad in some way? yope did they decide it would be ineffective in producing the result they wanted? yope did they think the rule might be illegal for some reason? no immoral? noish cost them money in some way? no be unworkable? no would they still have decided against the policy if the sanction had been suspension rather than expulsion? possibly if the misdemeanour had been something else, say drinking alcohol underage? yes was there decision based on the Constitution in some way? no | ||
| Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2006 |
So is it the punishment the College authorities decided to change, rather than the rule itself? If so, is it relevant that if expelled, the students would be part of the outside world and out-of-reach for the good influence of a Catholic surrounding? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2303 Registered: 8-2001 |
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl) New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So is it the punishment the College authorities decided to change, rather than the rule itself? I think so If so, is it relevant that if expelled, the students would be part of the outside world and out-of-reach for the good influence of a Catholic surrounding? no | ||
| Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2006 |
You say above that the era is yesishly relevant, but (also above but lower) that "it could be any of these" - that is 18th to the 21st century. Should we explore this seemingly contradiction? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2306 Registered: 8-2001 |
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl) New member Username: Huntinggirl Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 8:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) You say above that the era is yesishly relevant, but (also above but lower) that "it could be any of these" - that is 18th to the 21st century. Should we explore this seemingly contradiction? Where's the contradiction? The point is that there are some earlier eras that may be precluded (although I'm not sure) | ||
| Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
New member Username: Dlcygnet Post Number: 904 Registered: 6-2005 |
Unmarried women are more likely to use birth control/condoms if they engage in such activity & it's viewed as "illegal"? So they decided not to have the rule in place to keep their students from using birth control (also a no no in the Catholic community)? After all, the only real way to catch somebody is either in the act or after they get pregnant.... anything else is heresay. | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2319 Registered: 8-2001 |
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet) New member Username: Dlcygnet Post Number: 904 Registered: 6-2005 Posted on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 8:04 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Unmarried women are more likely to use birth control/condoms if they engage in such activity & it's viewed as "illegal"?irrel So they decided not to have the rule in place to keep their students from using birth control (also a no no in the Catholic community)?\no} After all, the only real way to catch somebody is either in the act or after they get pregnant.... anything else is heresay. That's not foolproof either--what if the woman was raped?? | ||
| ~damia~ (~damia~)
New member Username: ~damia~ Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2003 |
is birth control relevant? or abortion? | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 |
Is the fact that it's Catholic relevant? Would this work if it was a different denomination of Christianity (e.g. Protestant)? Would it work if it was a non-Christian religion? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2323 Registered: 8-2001 |
~damia~ (~damia~) New member Username: ~damia~ Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) is birth control relevant? no or abortion? no Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Is the fact that it's Catholic relevant? yesWould this work if it was a different denomination of Christianity (e.g. Protestant)? Less well if at all Would it work if it was a non-Christian religion? no | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 364 Registered: 4-2007 |
Were they worried that the rule would encourage the students to do something worse? That the rule would make students want to rebel? Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2328 Registered: 8-2001 |
Enjay (Enjay) New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 364 Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 8:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Were they worried that the rule would encourage the students to do something worse? No. I think sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin in Catholicism. So what could be worse by that standard??} That the rule would make students want to rebel? no Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2331 Registered: 8-2001 |
Was it a gesture of trust towards the students, that they didn't believe any of them would do such a thing? no | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 883 Registered: 3-2006 |
Did they simply hope that God would punish the sinners, and then they could bask in their own (self-)righteousness? Or was there some obscure doctrinal reason why a seminary should not punish sinners, because in so doing they would be playing God? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2334 Registered: 8-2001 |
Woodworm (Woodworm) New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 883 Registered: 3-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Did they simply hope that God would punish the sinners, and then they could bask in their own (self-)righteousness? no Or was there some obscure doctrinal reason why a seminary should not punish sinners, because in so doing they would be playing God? no. Anyway, it'sd a university, not a senminary | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 |
You said that it would work with Catholicism but not (as well) with other denominations of Christianity. Is this because... - Another denomination would be less likely to be considering an "expel anyone who is caught having sex before marriage" rule in the first place? - Another denomination would be less likely to be subject to the particular reason for rejecting such a rule that we are talking about? Is the reason for the above because: - the denomination's different beliefs regarding... ... the nature of God? ... some aspects of history? ... acceptable rules of behavior? ... acceptable punishments for bad behavior? - the denomination's history? - the popularity of the denomination? - the status of the denomination within society? Could this have happened before the Reformation? Is the Reformation relevant in any way? Are indulgences relevant in any way? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2342 Registered: 8-2001 |
Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 2:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) You said that it would work with Catholicism but not (as well) with other denominations of Christianity. Is this because... - Another denomination would be less likely to be considering an "expel anyone who is caught having sex before marriage" rule in the first place? no - Another denomination would be less likely to be subject to the particular reason for rejecting such a rule that we are talking about? yes Is the reason for the above because: - the denomination's different beliefs regarding... ... the nature of God? no ... some aspects of history? yesish ... acceptable rules of behavior? ... acceptable punishments for bad behavior? no - the denomination's history? yesish - the popularity of the denomination? no - the status of the denomination within society? no Could this have happened before the Reformation? yes Is the Reformation relevant in any way? no Are indulgences relevant in any way? no | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2007 |
Was there a particular historical event relevant? If so, did it happen before the year (insert LTPFLPI)? Would the reason for rejecting the rule still have been valid if the punishment was... ...a fine? ...community service? ...being restricted from going off-campus? Is the relevant fact that by expelling students, they would be preventing the students from learning? If they implemented this rule, would they have to also implement another rule? | ||
| Eli (Eli)
New member Username: Eli Post Number: 514 Registered: 11-2003 |
Does this have anything to do with the seven mortal sins (it's seven, i think???)? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2349 Registered: 8-2001 |
Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 7:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was there a particular historical event relevant? yes If so, did it happen before the year (insert LTPFLPI)?The school cited one such event (or series of events) that occurred in the late fourth or early fifth centuries & suggested that there were others occurring in differnt times as well. But all relevant events would be A.D., not B.C. Would the reason for rejecting the rule still have been valid if the punishment was... ...a fine? no ...community service? no ...being restricted from going off-campus? no Is the relevant fact that by expelling students, they would be preventing the students from learning? no If they implemented this rule, would they have to also implement another rule? no Eli (Eli) New member Username: Eli Post Number: 514 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:43 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Does this have anything to do with the seven mortal sins (it's seven, i think???)? yes it is, but the puzzle isn't specifically related to this. | ||
| Alex319 (Alex319)
New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2007 |
Was the relevant historical event(s): ... generally considered a bad thing? ... generally considered a good thing? ... an event described in the Old Testament? ... an event described in the New Testament? ... a Papal election (or something that occurred during it)? ... a Papal decree (or other official decree) ... something somebody (who was not necessarily in an official position) said? ... someone who Catholics generally consider to be good (e.g. a saint) doing something generally considered to be bad? ... someone who Catholics generally consider to be bad doing something generally considered to be good? ... involve someone getting expelled from a university? ... involved someone getting expelled from an institution that is not a university? If a student was expelled from the university, would that make an event similar to the event we are talking about more likely to happen? Less likely? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2358 Registered: 8-2001 |
Alex319 (Alex319) New member Username: Alex319 Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2007 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) Was the relevant historical event(s): ... generally considered a bad thing? yope ... generally considered a good thing? yope ... an event described in the Old Testament? no ... an event described in the New Testament? no ... a Papal election (or something that occurred during it)? no ... a Papal decree (or other official decree) yope ... something somebody (who was not necessarily in an official position) said? yope ... someone who Catholics generally consider to be good (e.g. a saint) doing something generally considered to be bad? YES!!!!!! NOW IT SHOULD BE EASY TO SOLVE!!!! ... someone who Catholics generally consider to be bad doing something generally considered to be good? no ... involve someone getting expelled from a university? no ... involved someone getting expelled from an institution that is not a university? no If a student was expelled from the university, would that make an event similar to the event we are talking about more likely to happen? N/A Less likely? N/A | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 528 Registered: 4-2007 |
So...did someone good have unmarried sex? A saint? Or something else considered "bad"? | ||
| Nimue (Nimue)
New member Username: Nimue Post Number: 2361 Registered: 8-2001 |
Enjay (Enjay) New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 528 Registered: 4-2007 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only) So...did someone good have unmarried sex?\b {yes} A saint yes Or something else considered "bad"? yes!!\ {****SPOILER*************} When The University of Dallas, a conservative Catholic university, considered having a rule expelling students found "guilty" of having poremarital sex, someone pointed out that some of the Catholic Chruch's great saints, such as St. Augustine, originally led pretty racy lives & would have been expelled under that rule.So the university never institited the rule. Sorry it was so easy--my new one at the bottom of the page won't be (I hope). |
