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Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1280
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here it is the norm, but somehow I can't imagine it happening anywhere else
Obaone (Obaone)
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Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here = Where you live? Your house? Community? Town? City? Country? Continent? Planet? Solar System? Universe?
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 778
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Has it just struck four?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1281
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Obaone
Here = Where you live? Yes
Your house? No
Community? Yes
Town? Yes
City? Not applicable
Country? Possibly

Continent? Planet? Solar System? Universe? No to these

Tom
Has it just struck four? No but nice one
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 784
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I thought it would fit with the title and everything...

So it is the norm in your town (Basingstoke yes?) but not your house? so is it something that is done in public? in the street? in a shop? in a particular locaction?

By a particular person? people? (number list posted)

Name of town relevant? Country as in England or as in UK? would it happen in Scotland? Wales? Northern Ireland? Would it happen where 2 or more Basingstokians are gathered?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1282
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I thought it would fit with the title and everything...

So it is the norm in your town (Basingstoke yes?) Yes
but not your house? Right
so is it something that is done in public? Yes
in the street? Yes
in a shop? No
in a particular locaction? Many locations of the same type - street will do!

By a particular person?
people? This one
(number list posted) The majority in Basingstoke apparently

Name of town relevant? No
Country as in England or as in UK? Yes. I don't know if it is common in the UK but I suspect that it might be

would it happen in Scotland? Wales? Northern Ireland? Good question and the answer is that I don't know but I will be interested to find out about Norn Iron later!

I imagine that it must happen elsewhere but I am simply amazed that it happens (here) at all!

Would it happen where 2 or more Basingstokians are gathered? Yesish
Bodo (Bodo)
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Post Number: 2160
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything about driving? Riding a bike? Walking?
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 789
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK question misput... could a single person do this? does it need more than one person to happen? (number list posted!)
Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1283
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bodo
Anything about driving? Yes
Riding a bike? Noish
Walking? Yes

Tom
OK question misput... could a single person do this? Yes
does it need more than one person to happen? Yes

(number list posted!) 1 + 1
Bodo (Bodo)
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Post Number: 2170
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm pretty sure all you guys drive on the wrong side over there, so I guess that's not it...(:

A particular habit of drivers and pedestrians you've observed in Basingstoke? In how they interact with others? How they respond to particular signs? Or traffic controls (e. g. traffic lights)? Cell phones relevant?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1284
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm pretty sure all you guys drive on the wrong side over there, so I guess that's not it...(:
No comment :-)

A particular habit of drivers and pedestrians you've observed in Basingstoke? Yope
In how they interact with others? Yes

How they respond to particular signs? Or traffic controls (e. g. traffic lights)? Cell phones relevant? No to these
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 796
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I hope for their health's sake that people in Basingstoke don't just walk out in front of cars?

Does the driver do it? the pedestrian?
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 797
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWIW... way back I did a puzzle about driving on the left... but that I think is missing now even from the archives...
Beroean (Beroean)
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Post Number: 1285
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I hope for their health's sake that people in Basingstoke don't just walk out in front of cars? Well they do, but there is a little bit more to it. What amazes me even more is...

Does the driver do it? No
the pedestrian? Yes
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Post Number: 1192
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do the pedestrians make themselves more likely to die by doing this?
Is any item of clothing relevant?
Might any pedestrian do this? an 8 year old child? a middle aged man? a woman in a wheelchair? a 92 year old who walked with a stick?
So do they run out in front of cars? and we need more details? or is it something else?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this happen during the day or when lots of people are out drinking in the evening?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1286
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bentarm
Do the pedestrians make themselves more likely to die by doing this? Yes
Is any item of clothing relevant? No

Might any pedestrian do this? an 8 year old child? a middle aged man? a woman in a wheelchair? a 92 year old who walked with a stick?
Good question - it seems to be a cross section of age groups of both genders including a good number of adults whom you might imagine to be reasonably inteligent

So do they run out in front of cars? No
and we need more details? From me? No. From you? For a more complete answer, Yes

or is it something else? You are on the right track

Lynne
Does this happen during the day or when lots of people are out drinking in the evening?
Mostly during the day and not associated with alcohol
Deathateaster (Deathateaster)
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Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something with the word "English" in it? Jubilee?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1287
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something with the word "English" in it? Jubilee?
No it's rather more about the nature/circumstances of pedestrians walking into the road
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 3395
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you have lots of parades and festivals in Basingstoke? Is there a special 'Basingstoke New Year' at a different date to the rest of the UK?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 3396
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, do you have lots of demonstrations?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1288
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you have lots of parades and festivals in Basingstoke? Your thinking is sound but the idea is not relevant

Is there a special 'Basingstoke New Year' at a different date to the rest of the UK? If there is then it must last all year round!

Oh, do you have lots of demonstrations? Good thinking but another blank

Hint: It's not about finding rational reasons it's simply about understanding what you see (say from the driver's viewpoint)

I can spoyle any time - the substance has been revealed by Tom
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Post Number: 1196
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Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So do pedestrians step in front of moving vehicles?
cross the road in a dangerous way?
Do they step out just behind moving vehicles? (this can be very disconcerting when driving)
Do they try to cross the road in very small gaps between vehicles?
Is there anything relevant about their behaviour when stepping out? Do they look scared? Nonchalant? aggressive? confident?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1290
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So do pedestrians step in front of moving vehicles?
cross the road in a dangerous way?
Do they step out just behind moving vehicles? (this can be very disconcerting when driving)
Do they try to cross the road in very small gaps between vehicles?
Is there anything relevant about their behaviour when stepping out? Do they look scared? Nonchalant? aggressive? confident?

You've just about covered everything John, especially with you last questions.... spoyler coming up...
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1291
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

********************** SPOLIER **********************


In the last few years I have become increasing aware of a tendency prevalent among the pedestrians in my home town.

It’s not that they are careless about crossing the road, no, it’s quite the opposite. Apparently they have a clear strategy for negotiating the local highways, though the overall aim is devoid of safety sense. Instead the idea seems to be based upon a willful and stubborn intent to step into the road and embark on their crossing simply when they feel the desire to do so, regardless of whether a car is moving toward them or not.

Don’t misunderstand, they have seen the car. They know I am driving towards them. They are completely aware that they are potential sitting ducks in the path of the oncoming car, unless they move rather smartly. They know full well that if I maintain the same speed and fail to brake, they will be either seriously injured or dead. So, naturally you expect them to hurry up and get to the other side of the road. And do they? No! They have already predetermined their own walking pace and set it to an idle stroll!

Clearly what is at stake is not simply the mundane issue about crossing the road. There is something much deeper going on here. This is more about who owns the road. It’s about The Pedestrian v The Driver. It’s about intimidating the driver with a sort of rhetorical dare. I have lost count of the number of times that a pedestrian has looked along the road, seen me coming and then bowed their head down and proceeded to stroll across the road, directly into my path.

This must take great faith, a blinkered belief that the pedestrian has a divine right to the roadways and that as soon as a holy foot strides into the road, all cars must slow and come to a stop. Either that, or we must drive around these sacred ones as they occupy their territory on the carriage way. Their creed is so strong, they aspire to immortality, and nothing can harm them.

Needless to say, I have not been converted. I am yet to be convinced of the doctrine. I see gaping holes in the reasoning. To trust blindly in the good will of all drivers is rather unsafe. What if that driver is not concentrating, has been drinking, is high on some exotic substance, studying the GPS or just had an argument with the wife! And haven’t they even heard of “Road Rage”??

Honestly, I don't understand it. I remain baffled, astonished, staggered even, by the rate at which this cult is catching on!

Surely this phenomenon is “Englishism”, akin to the “it won’t happen to me” mentality, “I know my rights, I am protected by the law”.

Surely this doesn't happen anywhere else in the World, does it?

Am I just being a “Grumpy Old Man”?

I would value your thoughts or analysis!
Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
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Post Number: 800
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would love to say that this is just your town..., <rant-starts> but it seems to me that it is much more widespread... try reversing or manoeuvring an AMBULANCE.. an ambulance for crikeys sake... and see just how many people seem to think they are invunerable... this is a big white thing with lights etc... hard to miss but they are always surpirised when you point it out to them that they risk being knocked over... <rant-over>
Booklover (Booklover)
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Post Number: 689
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 3:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wish it just happened in Basingstoke. It's definitely going on here in the US--but usually not on major roads--mostly in parking lots. People seem to think that an entire parking lot is a "pedestrian crosswalk." I will drive past a store and suddenly someone on the sidewalk will start to cross over. It's not just the fact that people cross in front of the car ,(and I am sure you notice this, too)it is the glare that these people give me when I go by!
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 794
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm with you on this one. In Dublin at pedestrian crossings we have a display which counts down the seconds until the little man turns green. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who run out onto the road even if there is only 5 seconds left on the clock. Can't imagine how late one must be to think 5 seconds is going to make a difference.
Bodo (Bodo)
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would follow up with something here but if I get started I'm afraid I won't stop until I've used up all of the bandwidth available to the forum for the next five years (and I still won't be done). Plus I'd just be ticked off for the rest of the day - don't need that.
Bodo (Bodo)
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Post Number: 2184
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Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, ok, one thing:

cour·te·sy [kur-tuh-see] noun
1. An extinct creature identified only by fossil records once thought to have roamed over vast portions of the earth.
2. A mythical entity postulated by fantasy writers from the late 1800s.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 103
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am currently in Shanghai, where it is the norm for anyone - whether on foot, on a bicycle, on a motor bicycle or in a car - to venture onto whatever square centimetre of road or sidewalk he or she can, and defy anyone else to knock him off it. I have seen a similar system operate in Mumbai and in Istanbul. Whereas in the United States and northern Europe traffic signals are regarded as mandative, in southern Europe they are considered advisory and in the East purely decorative.

And do you know what? It doesn't matter. The number of serious traffic accidents per 100,000 people is pretty much the same in Europe as it is in the Americas and in Asia, despite the enormous variance in traffic regulation and the habits of road users. Only in Africa is the number of serious accidents much higher than the norm, and in the parts of Africa I have visited, they drive and they scoot and they walk no worse than they drive and they scoot and they walk anywhere else. But they hold life cheaper there.

I am a Londoner, and I appal my American friends by crossing the road in Oklahoma City against the lights, having carefully verified that there is no vehicle on the highway in either direction from the Golden Gate Bridge to the mouth of the Potomac. Without such reckless disregard for the law, no London pedestrian would ever get more than forty yards from his own front door.

But if my ears were to catch the sound of a driver starting his engine somewhere in Phoenix - why, I would wait until he was well into West Virginia before setting foot on the pavement, for so convinced is he that he owns the highway that he would seriously consider coming back from anywhere west of Memphis just to run me over for daring to cross it at all, let alone without the lights in my favour.

In London and Paris, and Shanghai and Mumbai and Istanbul, everyone who uses the road does so with a heightened sense of awareness that simply isn't present in the United States, or Sweden, or Norway. A parking lot in a populous city is a pedestrian crosswalk, and so is a pedestrian crosswalk in Dublin even when the pedestrian lights are red, and if you don't drive as though it were, you're going to hurt someone. Legally, that won't be your fault. But you don't want to hurt people, do you? And I'm sure you don't want to grumble about how many people you didn't hurt today, for well it was said by the bard:

Three facts, quite easy,
should be known to all
would-be arrivers
who set out on wheels:
that roads are greasy,
safety margins small,
and fellow drivers
fellow imbeciles.


Piet Hein
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Only in Africa is the number of serious accidents much higher than the norm"

Well, in Marrakech the traffic comprised cars, bicycles, 2 stroke type scooters carrying entire families (kid on the handlebars, wife and baby on the little luggage thingy and dad scooting along), scooters being driven by women in burkas so little peripheral vision or hearing is employed, donkeys carrying crates of anything they can get hold of (the rider often using a mobile phone), tourist horse and carriages where the horses come loose, buses and taxis (another breed entirely).

You know what? In two weeks I only saw one accident. A man fell off his bike - and there was nothing and nobody else near him. I guess he felt he was obliged to live up to the statistics.
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data, so the fact you didn't see many fatal accidents in Morocco doesn't contradict David's statement that African drivers suffer more fatalities. From what I remember Morocco is somewhere near the middle of the list for Africa, making it more dangerous than pretty much anywhere else in Europe or America, and less dangerous only than Pakistan and (latterly, but I think it is improving) Korea.

Of course, comparing the number of fatalities on the roads is difficult - there are two regularly used estimates, "deaths per capita" and "deaths per vehicle" - neither of these is quite satisfactory, but on both African countries in general are significantly behind most of Europe (although deaths per capita tends to be much more diverse - I think Thailand and perhaps some South American countries have particularly bad record for this statistic).
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 106
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Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 6:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I said, they don't drive any worse in Africa than anywhere else. What they're worse at is looking after someone once he's become the victim of an accident, and thereby preventing an ordinary accident from entering the category of "serious accident".

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