| Author | Message | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2003 |
Nimue's definition of a scrund (I love the concept!) is a verbal miscommunication that remains uncorrected. It occurs to me that images can be similarly misinterpreted. This is the cause of the following scrund. As a child, I loved airplanes. I once drew a picture of an airplane and showed it to family members. They were surprised and shocked, due to a mistake I had made in the picture. This was due to the combination of something my father had told me, and something I had seen. What was my mistake, and why did I make it? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2008 |
Was anything other than the airplane in the picture? Relevant? Was the mistake something that would have violated the laws of physics (i.e. the plane would not have been able to fly if the picture really looked as you drew it)? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 228 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was anything other than the airplane in the picture? No. Relevant? No. Was the mistake something that would have violated the laws of physics (i.e. the plane would not have been able to fly if the picture really looked as you drew it)? No. | ||
| Mimino (Mimino)
New member Username: Mimino Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2005 |
did you mishear something your father said? any word or phrase with double meaning relevant? did you see an airplane in real life before you drew the picture? had you been inside an airplane before? Did your picture show people on, at, or inside the plane? Did it show the airplane from the side? from above? from below? from the front side? from the back side? Was it a standard passenger jet liner? a propeller plane? a windglider? a military plane? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 394 Registered: 6-2003 |
Had you perhaps taken the concept of aeroplanes being "flying metal birds" a bit too seriously? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2003 |
did you mishear something your father said? No. any word or phrase with double meaning relevant? No. did you see an airplane in real life before you drew the picture? Yes. had you been inside an airplane before? Yes. Did your picture show people on, at, or inside the plane? No. Did it show the airplane from the side? This. from above? from below? from the front side? from the back side? Was it a standard passenger jet liner? a propeller plane? This. a windglider? a military plane? And this. Had you perhaps taken the concept of aeroplanes being "flying metal birds" a bit too seriously? No. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 399 Registered: 6-2003 |
In relation to what one would normally expect to see in a picture of an aeroplane...had you added something? Not included something? Changed the colour of something? Put it in an unusual location? Did you believe that the stairs, that lead from the ground to the aeroplane, were a permanent feature? | ||
| Mimino (Mimino)
New member Username: Mimino Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2005 |
So you drew a military propeller plane? Did you see a plane like this before? A bi-plane? with open cockpit? or a transporter plane? was the mistake you made related to the propeller(s)? to the wings? to the landing gear? hatches? rudder? did you picture the airplane in the air? on the ground? taking off? landing? crashing into the ground (just in case)? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 230 Registered: 5-2003 |
In relation to what one would normally expect to see in a picture of an aeroplane...had you added something? Yes. Not included something? No. So you drew a military propeller plane? Yes. Did you see a plane like this before? In pictures, yes. A bi-plane? No. with open cockpit? No. or a transporter plane? No. was the mistake you made related to the propeller(s)? No. to the wings? No. to the landing gear? No. hatches? No. rudder? No. did you picture the airplane in the air? on the ground? taking off? landing? crashing into the ground (just in case)? Location of plane is irrelevant to the puzzle, but it was pictured on the ground. Changed the colour of something? No. Put it in an unusual location? No. Did you believe that the stairs, that lead from the ground to the aeroplane, were a permanent feature? No. | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2008 |
Was the added item: In the front of the plane? On the tail? Underneath the plane? On the top? Along one side? Was the added item intended to serve a functional purpose (i.e. not just decoration or marking)? If so, would it be used on the runway? During takeoff? In flight? When landing? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 232 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was the added item: In the front of the plane? On the tail? This. Underneath the plane? On the top? Along one side? Was the added item intended to serve a functional purpose (i.e. not just decoration or marking)? No, it was a marking. Good question! If so, would it be used on the runway? During takeoff? In flight? When landing? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 233 Registered: 5-2003 |
I should had added: Along one side? While it is not the 'shocking' item in question, there was another relevant marking here. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1285 Registered: 1-2007 |
Were you influenced by a war film? or book? By any chance did you draw a swastika on the plane? | ||
| Ostap (Ostap)
New member Username: Ostap Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2005 |
Did you draw a propeller that looked like a swastika? Did you have a helicopter in mind when you drew the airplane? with a propeller on the tail? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 234 Registered: 5-2003 |
Were you influenced by a war film? or book? Both, but mostly books. By any chance did you draw a swastika on the plane? Why, yes, I did! You're halfway to the answer. Another marking is also relevant. Did you draw a propeller that looked like a swastika? No. Did you have a helicopter in mind when you drew the airplane? No. with a propeller on the tail? No. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1288 Registered: 1-2007 |
Did the other marking contradict the swastika? A union jack? stars and stripes? Were you aware when you drew it that the Swastika identified the plane as German? Did you think that only the germans had planes? Oh was the plane a Fokker and you drew the word F***er instead (please let that be the answer!!)? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did the other marking contradict the swastika? Yes! A union jack? But no. stars and stripes? And no. Were you aware when you drew it that the Swastika identified the plane as German? Yes. Did you think that only the germans had planes? No, but I knew this particular plane was German. Oh was the plane a Fokker and you drew the word F***er instead (please let that be the answer!!)? No. Good one, though! | ||
| Ostap (Ostap)
New member Username: Ostap Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2005 |
Was the other mark a red star? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was the other mark a red star? No. | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2008 |
Was the other marking a date, that you intended to be the year of manufacture of the plane, which was well beyond the end of World War II? Was part of your scrund that you thought the swastika was a general symbol for Germany (such as part of the German flag) as opposed to the symbol of a particular, and now non-existent, political party? | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 218 Registered: 5-2008 |
The thing your father had told you was about WW2? Hitler? Germans? Germany? Planes? America? Americans? Britain? the British? other Allied countries/their people? The other marking contains letters? numbers? shapes? colours relevant? religious symbology? Did the other marking in some way imply Hitler/ his beliefs were good/just? The Swastika is the marking on the tail? on the side? the added marking? The other marking is the marking on the tail? on the side? the added marking? Does the plane in question pre-date the war? Was manufactured during the war? after? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 237 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was the other marking a date, that you intended to be the year of manufacture of the plane, which was well beyond the end of World War II? No, but the marking would have indicated a postwar date, and a mistake, as it was not used during the war and the swastika was. Was part of your scrund that you thought the swastika was a general symbol for Germany (such as part of the German flag) as opposed to the symbol of a particular, and now non-existent, political party? Yes! The thing your father had told you was about WW2? Yes. Hitler? Germans? Germany? Planes? Yes, German planes. America? Americans? Britain? the British? other Allied countries/their people? Yope. The other marking contains letters? numbers? shapes? Yes. colours relevant? Yes. religious symbology? Yes. Did the other marking in some way imply Hitler/ his beliefs were good/just? No. The Swastika is the marking on the tail? Yes. on the side? the added marking? Yes. The other marking is the marking on the tail? on the side? Yes. the added marking? Yope -- It could be called an added marking, but was not due to the scrund. The swastika was a marking I should not have added, and was due to a scrund. Does the plane in question pre-date the war? Was manufactured during the war? after? All three. I was under the impression, due to the scrund, that the plane had been produced during the war, but this particular variant was produced after it. These are all good questions, you're almost there! | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 1230 Registered: 4-2007 |
A cross? Star of David? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 239 Registered: 5-2003 |
A cross? Star of David? This. | ||
| Liquizt (Liquizt)
New member Username: Liquizt Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2008 |
Was the shock that you'd drawn the swastika? drawn it on a plane? drawn it on a german plane? drawn it on that particular model of plane? the combination of the Star of David (representing Jews) with the swastika (representing a political party with strong negative beliefs/relations with Jewish people)? The thing your father told you was about Jews? Judaism? The plane was built by Jews? non-Jewish Germans? Intended for Jewish use? non-Jewish use? Was colour relevant in that you felt it would help to determine that the symbol was the Star of David? Is colour still relevant (i.e. other than for determining that the symbol was the Star of David)? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 240 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was the shock that you'd drawn the swastika? Yes. drawn it on a plane? No. drawn it on a german plane? No. drawn it on that particular model of plane? No. the combination of the Star of David (representing Jews) with the swastika (representing a political party with strong negative beliefs/relations with Jewish people)? Yes. The thing your father told you was about Jews? No. Judaism? No. The plane was built by Jews? No. non-Jewish Germans? No, but irrelevant. Intended for Jewish use? Yope. non-Jewish use? Yope. Was colour relevant in that you felt it would help to determine that the symbol was the Star of David? Yes. Is colour still relevant (i.e. other than for determining that the symbol was the Star of David)? Yes. Getting ever warmer... | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 241 Registered: 5-2003 |
The thing your father told you was about Jews? Change this to Yope. | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 1231 Registered: 4-2007 |
When you drew the picture, you knew that the swastika was the sign of Germany? But you didn't realise it represented the Nazis? Did you know that the Star of David represented Judaism? Did you know about the Holocaust? Had you been told that there was some connection between the swastika and the Jews, but not that it was a negative connection? Did you know that some planes had swastikas on them, and that some had stars of David, but you didn't realise that those two symbols would never have appeared on the same plane? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2003 |
When you drew the picture, you knew that the swastika was the sign of Germany? Yes. [Did you know] it represented the Nazis? No. Did you know that the Star of David represented Judaism? Yes. Did you know about the Holocaust? Yes. Had you been told that there was some connection between the swastika and the Jews, but not that it was a negative connection? No. Did you know that some planes had swastikas on them, and that some had stars of David, but you didn't realise that those two symbols would never have appeared on the same plane? Correct. Now, why did I make the mistake in the first place? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1291 Registered: 1-2007 |
I think I might have this so here goes: Are the aeroplane manufacturer "Junkers" relevant? All their designs were named "Junkers Ju" and then a number e.g. Junkers Ju 88. So you confused the letters Ju with the word Jew and probably thought that the planes were owned by or used by the Jews. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 244 Registered: 5-2003 |
No, they weren't Junkers. Though it was a specific aircraft, and that is relevant, how its name is spelled or spoken aloud is irrelevant for the purposes of this puzzle. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1294 Registered: 1-2007 |
Darn I was sure I had that. Was it a Stuka (although that's a Junkers I think)? Messerschmitt? Heinkel? Focke Wulf? That's all the German planes i can think of i'm afraid. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 245 Registered: 5-2003 |
Messerschmitt. Specifically, the BF 109 fighter. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1298 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is some specific knowledge of the plane's design required.? Relevant that it's a fighter not a bomber? Did you think that Schmitt was a jewish name? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2003 |
No to all. | ||
| Ostap (Ostap)
New member Username: Ostap Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2005 |
Relevant that aircrafts based on the BF 109 were also used by the Israeli Air Force? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 249 Registered: 5-2003 |
Relevant that aircrafts based on the BF 109 were also used by the Israeli Air Force? Yes! *************SPOILER***************** I should mention, btw, that my family is Jewish. And my father, an aviation engineer, worked for several years in Israel. I was about eight or nine. We were visiting my grandparents, and I was reading an illustrated book on German planes. My dad casually mentioned that the BF 109 had also been flown by the Israelis. He told me what the markings looked like, and I started drawing. Since my drawing was based on the 109s in the book, all of which had swastikas, I added a swastika to the tail as well as a blue Star of David on the fuselage, since I assumed the planes were ex-German. My grandparents, of course, were shocked and distressed when I showed them the picture. My dad explained the discrepancy, laughed it off, then pulled me aside and explained that a) surplus vehicles are stripped of markings and painted only with those of their new owners, and b) the Israeli 109s were not German anyway, but crappy postwar versions license-built by the Czechs. He knew how aircraft are supposed to be marked, and it simply didn't occur to him that I wouldn't. Nor did it occur to me to ask more specifically. |
