| Author | Message | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 268 Registered: 5-2003 |
In college, I once dashed off a gruesome little tale off the top of my head. It concerned a drunken Irish sailor, fresh off a whaling voyage to Australia, who murdered his girlfriend. Haunted by her ghost, he joined the Irish rebels, and was finally captured and hanged by the British. When I asked others to read it, I received comments that it looked as though I hadn't written it myself. Now why would they say that? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1339 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hmm a puzzle about a Drunken Irish Man..... Were the people you showed it to fellow students? Lecturers? Your family? Is this relevant? Did you handwrite the story? Typed? Word Processor? Relevant? When they said it didn't look like you wrote it yourself did they mean that it physically looked as though you hadn't? or were they accusing you of plagiarism? In your story did you display a surprisingly in depth knowledge of Irish History? Culture? Geography? Language? Customs? Do you have any actual knowledge of any of these? relevant? I take it you named your characters? Did you inadvertantly use the name of a real Irish rebel? e.g Padraig Pearse? Robert Emmet? or perhaps a character from a famous novel that you were unaware of ? Any relevant place names in the story? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 271 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hmm a puzzle about a Drunken Irish Man..... Yes. Were the people you showed it to fellow students? Some were. Lecturers? At least one. Your family? My father. Is this relevant? Not really. Did you handwrite the story? No. Typed? No. Word Processor? Yes. Relevant? Yes. When they said it didn't look like you wrote it yourself did they mean that it physically looked as though you hadn't? No. or were they accusing you of plagiarism? No. In your story did you display a surprisingly in depth knowledge of Irish History? No. Culture? Yes. Geography? No. Language? No. Customs? No. Do you have any actual knowledge of any of these? Yes. relevant? Yes. I take it you named your characters? Yes. Their exact names are irrelevant. Did you inadvertantly use the name of a real Irish rebel? {No. e.g Padraig Pearse? Robert Emmet? or perhaps a character from a famous novel that you were unaware of ? No. Any relevant place names in the story? Yope. Others would have done just as well, but I felt these were particularly appropriate. | ||
| Ostap (Ostap)
New member Username: Ostap Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2005 |
Spell checker relevant? Did the spell checker mess up an Irish word or an Irish name? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 275 Registered: 5-2003 |
Spell checker relevant? No. Did the spell checker mess up an Irish word or an Irish name? No. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1400 Registered: 3-2006 |
Would this puzzle work for an Indonesian sailor, harpooning whales off Japan, who was captured and hanged by the Welsh? Did you make some sort of continuity error that they considered surprising? Are US/UK spelling differences relevant at all? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 276 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would this puzzle work for an Indonesian sailor, harpooning whales off Japan, who was captured and hanged by the Welsh? Absolutely not! Did you make some sort of continuity error that they considered surprising? Good question. There are continuity errors in the story, but they did not surprise my readers, and are irrelevant to solving the puzzle. Are US/UK spelling differences relevant at all? No, I could have used either. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would this puzzle work for an Indonesian sailor, harpooning whales off Japan, who was captured and hanged by the Welsh? Absolutely not! Did you make some sort of continuity error that they considered surprising? Good question. There are continuity errors in the story, but they did not surprise my readers, and are irrelevant to solving the puzzle. Are US/UK spelling differences relevant at all? No, I could have used either. | ||
| Enjay (Enjay)
New member Username: Enjay Post Number: 1240 Registered: 4-2007 |
Did they believe that you could not have known a particular detail of the story (about Irish culture?) and so must have taken it from elsewhere, but in fact you knew more than they realised? Or it was a lucky coincidence? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 279 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they believe that you could not have known a particular detail of the story (about Irish culture?) No. and so must have taken it from elsewhere, I did take the details from elsewhere, though. but in fact you knew more than they realised? No. Or it was a lucky coincidence? No. | ||
| Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
New member Username: Tsoram1970 Post Number: 1127 Registered: 6-2001 |
So the Irish cultural references suprised your readers? Did you in fact know the references? Were they accurate? Or did you perpetuate someone eles's mistake? Did your style of writing mimic a known author? We know that culture is relevant... was this their only reason for questioning your authorship? | ||
| Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
New member Username: Tsoram1970 Post Number: 1128 Registered: 6-2001 |
So the Irish cultural references suprised your readers? Did you in fact know the references? Were they accurate? Or did you perpetuate someone eles's mistake? Did your style of writing mimic a known author? We know that culture is relevant... was this their only reason for questioning your authorship? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 280 Registered: 5-2003 |
So the Irish cultural references suprised your readers? Not the references, so much as how well I used them and how many there were. Did you in fact know the references? Yes, I was aware at the time of which ones I was using and what they meant. Were they accurate? In the story's context, yes they were. Outside the story, probably not. Or did you perpetuate someone else's mistake? Probably. Did your style of writing mimic a known author? No. But explore this! We know that culture is relevant... was this their only reason for questioning your authorship? No. There are a couple key false assumptions you folks are laboring under, by the way... ;) | ||
| Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
New member Username: Tsoram1970 Post Number: 1130 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hmmm... just noticed that word processing is relevant... would their reaction have been the same had you typed it on a typewriter? Did the style vary? So some bits looked professional? extremely irish? while others were less so? Was there a great amount of difference between various parts? Was it a short story? novella? book length? Prose? Poetry? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 282 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hmmm... just noticed that word processing is relevant... would their reaction have been the same had you typed it on a typewriter? Far fewer people would have seen it, but their reaction would have been similar. Did the style vary? So some bits looked professional? extremely irish? while others were less so? Since I'm not sure how to respond to these question, I'll give you a hint instead: "Professional" isn't the word you're looking for. Was there a great amount of difference between various parts? No. Was it a short story? No. novella? No. book length? No. Prose? No. Poetry? Yope. | ||
| Tsoram1970 (Tsoram1970)
New member Username: Tsoram1970 Post Number: 1131 Registered: 6-2001 |
So are you a ballad writer then? or some other kind of song? opera? play? film? some bits looked "amateur" - I hate this meaning for this word! I prefer the one that says "for the love of" So did some lines not scan properly? were you aiming for a particular style? to set it to a particular tune? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 283 Registered: 5-2003 |
So are you a ballad writer then? Yes, it was a ballad of sorts. or some other kind of song? opera? play? film? some bits looked "amateur" - I hate this meaning for this word! I prefer the one that says "for the love of" No. So did some lines not scan properly? No. were you aiming for a particular style? Yes. to set it to a particular tune? Yes -- which one is irrelevant. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1345 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is Wikipedia relevant? or some other on-line encyclipedia? Is this the source of some of the detail in your ballad? Did the source you relied on contian erroneous information which you copied into your song? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 287 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is Wikipedia relevant? No. or some other on-line encyclipedia? Yes. Is this the source of some of the detail in your ballad? Yes. Did the source you relied on contian erroneous information which you copied into your song? Yes, but irrelevant. | ||
| Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
New member Username: Dlcygnet Post Number: 1371 Registered: 6-2005 |
The ballad you wrote... was it written in a key that wasn't ideally suited to your voice? to the instrument you played? And most singers would write to their strengths rather than to what is more appropriate for the genre? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 289 Registered: 5-2003 |
The ballad you wrote... was it written in a key that wasn't ideally suited to your voice? to the instrument you played? And most singers would write to their strengths rather than to what is more appropriate for the genre? No, that's irrelevant. I sing, but I don't play an instrument, and the tune was left ambiguous. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1352 Registered: 1-2007 |
Would it have been obvious to your audiance that you had used an on-line encyclipedia to assist you in writing the song? Any famous people mentioned in the song? Does the song refer to Irish Music? writing? dance? movies? Were you influenced by any Irish Folk song? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 292 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would it have been obvious to your audiance that you had used an on-line encyclipedia to assist you in writing the song? Yes, but irrelevant. Any famous people mentioned in the song? No. Does the song refer to Irish Music? No. writing? No. dance? No. movies? No. Were you influenced by any Irish Folk song? Yes... but explore! | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 293 Registered: 5-2003 |
Blooper alert -- forget "irrelevant." It isn't. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1360 Registered: 1-2007 |
Well the mere mention of Australia in the puzzle statement would make me think of "The Wild Colonial Boy"? If not would the song that influenced you be catorgorized as a rebel song? Was it to do with fighting the british? unfortunately identifying that it's an Irish Folk song about fighting the british only narrows the possible answers to about a million. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1361 Registered: 1-2007 |
Oh an before someone corrects me soem would claim the Wild Colonial Boy as an Australian song. There is an australian version where the hero's name is Jack Doolan as opposed to the Irish version where is he Jack Duggan. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well the mere mention of Australia in the puzzle statement would make me think of "The Wild Colonial Boy"? The reference was actually to Botany Bay, but there is an element of banditry in the song as well. If not would the song that influenced you be catorgorized as a rebel song? Yes, Was it to do with fighting the british? and Yes. But more than one song and theme was involved. unfortunately identifying that it's an Irish Folk song about fighting the british only narrows the possible answers to about a million. My Dad says there are only three types of Celtic song -- love, drinking and war. The Celts say goodbye to their true loves (or their true loves are murdered) then go out and fight the British. When the British kick their butts, they go home and drink to drown their sorrows! Oh an before someone corrects me soem would claim the Wild Colonial Boy as an Australian song. There is an australian version where the hero's name is Jack Doolan as opposed to the Irish version where is he Jack Duggan. I did a school project once on outlaw folk music, and found at least thirty versions of the song. The original is based on Jack Donohoe, an Irishman who was killed in Australia in 1830. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1366 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is one of the songs "The fields of Athenry" "Sure she'll wait and hope and pray for her love in Botany Bay" | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 298 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is one of the songs "The fields of Athenry" "Sure she'll wait and hope and pray for her love in Botany Bay" Perhaps, but irrelevant. You don't necessarily have to figure out exactly where my references came from. Hint: Figure out the context in which I wrote this. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1371 Registered: 1-2007 |
Were you inspired by some current (at that time) event? even though your song was historical could it in some way have been considered topical? Following on that notion would it help me to find out when you were in college? Had you travelled anywhere relevant prior to writing the song? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1372 Registered: 1-2007 |
Were you inspired by some current (at that time) event? even though your song was historical could it in some way have been considered topical? Following on that notion would it help me to find out when you were in college? Had you travelled anywhere relevant prior to writing the song? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 304 Registered: 5-2003 |
Were you inspired by some current (at that time) event? Yes. Look out for an FA, though. even though your song was historical could it in some way have been considered topical? Yes. Following on that notion would it help me to find out when you were in college? No, that's irrelevant. Had you travelled anywhere relevant prior to writing the song? No. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1424 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is gender relevant? Masculine & feminine pronouns: that kind of thing? Did people think it wasn't your own work because of your age? Or because of some specific historical reference? Or geographical reference? Or is it to do with the musical style? Did it sound so close to, say, a Dylan song, that people assumed it was one of his? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 316 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is gender relevant? No. Masculine & feminine pronouns: that kind of thing? No. Did people think it wasn't your own work because of your age? No. Or because of some specific historical reference? Yes. Or geographical reference? Yes. Or is it to do with the musical style? Yes. Did it sound so close to, say, a Dylan song, that people assumed it was one of his? Yes, OTRT. All of the above are relevant, but as a hint, you don't need to work out the specific references... ;p | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1406 Registered: 1-2007 |
The event that inspired you to write the song.. Did it take place in Ireland? Australia? US? elsewhere? Was the event a war ? an act of terrorism? other crime? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 324 Registered: 5-2003 |
The event that inspired you to write the song.. Did it take place in Ireland? Australia? US? elsewhere? It was on the Internet, so technically it took place everywhere. It was not, however, a news event. Was the event a war ? an act of terrorism? other crime? None of the above. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hint: Again, find the context! | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1412 Registered: 1-2007 |
Is the Lateral Thinking Puzzle Forum relevant? Did you get your ideas from a puzzle? Were you entering your ballad in a competition? If all of the above are no could you post a recap as I'm stuck on how to proceed? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is the Lateral Thinking Puzzle Forum relevant? No. Did you get your ideas from a puzzle? No. Were you entering your ballad in a competition? No. But others were writing similar songs. If all of the above are no could you post a recap as I'm stuck on how to proceed? Many years ago, on an online forum, I wrote a historical-style Irish ballad. I used references from real folksongs (the actual details are irrelevant). The style and language were so similar to the real thing that at least one person thought it sounded authentic. However, he was not accusing me of plagiarism. Explain. I am not of Celtic descent, nor am I a professional writer or musician. My only experience with folk music is as a listener. | ||
| Antesse (Antesse)
New member Username: Antesse Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2008 |
Did he suggest that you were a compiler? An editor? Did you quote? As in "As old Smith would say, 'The battle was fierce'"? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 397 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did he suggest that you were a compiler? I was a compiler of sorts, actually, and he was aware of this. This is relevant! An editor? No. Did you quote? As in "As old Smith would say, 'The battle was fierce'"? There were no direct quotes. | ||
| Antesse (Antesse)
New member Username: Antesse Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2008 |
Did he think you simply took parts of other stories and put them together to make a single work? And thus, thinking you a compiler of other work instead of an original author? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did he think you simply took parts of other stories and put them together to make a single work? And thus, thinking you a compiler of other work instead of an original author? Not only is this absolutely correct, he knew it. So did everyone else who read it. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 423 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hint: The reaction of others to the song I wrote was favorable, for reasons other than how well it was written. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1490 Registered: 1-2007 |
So was there reaction favourable because it sounded so familiar to them? are they all fans of Irish Folk music? I'm unsure how to proceed here as you've said the details of the references you used are not relevant. As we're trying to establish why they thought you didn't write it yourself is it not sufficient to say that you referenced other songs? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 434 Registered: 5-2003 |
So was there reaction favourable because it sounded so familiar to them? Yes, but -- and here's the hint -- under most circumstances, they might have considered my use of familiar elements to be plagiarism, or at any rate unethical ("That's not your own song, you just reused bits from other songs."). are they all fans of Irish Folk music? Yes. I'm unsure how to proceed here as you've said the details of the references you used are not relevant. As we're trying to establish why they thought you didn't write it yourself is it not sufficient to say that you referenced other songs? Correct. A good question here would be to ask why I wrote the song in the first place. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 642 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was the purpose of the song informational? Persuasive? Entertaining? Something else? | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 643 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was the song a parody? Did you take elements from other songs and put them in a new context? Did you use any quotations? Are any 18th century poets relevant? What about Shakespeare? Maybe P. G. Wodehouse? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 454 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was the purpose of the song informational? No. Persuasive? No. Entertaining? Yes. Something else? No. Was the song a parody? YES! Did you take elements from other songs Yes. and put them in a new context? Hmm... not as such, but we were definitely viewing them from a new perspective. Did you use any quotations? Not directly. Are any 18th century poets relevant? What about Shakespeare? Maybe P. G. Wodehouse? No individual writers are relevant. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 661 Registered: 12-2004 |
Did they say "that" because you hadn't written it yourself? Is there anything more about where you got the elements of other songs from? Do the words have a new meaning? Any irony involved? If so, verbal? cosmic? historical? Am I anywhere near the right track? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 456 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did they say "that" because you hadn't written it yourself? I had written it myself, and they knew it. Is there anything more about where you got the elements of other songs from? Yope. Do the words have a new meaning? No. Any irony involved? It was ironic that the song looked so authentic when everyone knew it wasn't. If so, verbal? No. cosmic? No. historical? Sort of. Am I anywhere near the right track? You're certainly getting closer. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 687 Registered: 12-2004 |
Would determining the specific location(s) from which you got the elements of other songs have any considerable effect on my solving of this puzzle? Since you had written it yourself, was it just a strange coincidence that what you had written was plagiarized by people in the past? Is there any more about the reason why it looked so authentic that is relevant to the puzzle? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 461 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would determining the specific location(s) from which you got the elements of other songs have any considerable effect on my solving of this puzzle? Not really, no. Since you had written it yourself, was it just a strange coincidence that what you had written was plagiarized by people in the past? No, it was not! Is there any more about the reason why it looked so authentic that is relevant to the puzzle? Yes. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 706 Registered: 12-2004 |
So did you write something new from the elements that you stole to form this new song? Did you use grandiose language? Did it sound like Oscar Wilde? Happy Birthday? Did it remind people of their uncles? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 463 Registered: 5-2003 |
So did you write something new from the elements that you stole to form this new song? Yes! Did you use grandiose language? Hmm... maybe. Depends on your definition. Did it sound like Oscar Wilde? No. Happy Birthday? No. Did it remind people of their uncles? I doubt it. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 747 Registered: 12-2004 |
Did it seem like something that would have been written by someone else even though it was not written by someone else? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did it seem like something that would have been written by someone else even though it was not written by someone else? Yes. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 775 Registered: 12-2004 |
Did it seem like something that would have been written by a specific author? In a certain time period? By someone from a specific location? By four thousand chimpanzees randomly hitting keys on a typewriter? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 469 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did it seem like something that would have been written by a specific author? No. In a certain time period? Yes. By someone from a specific location? A general location, but yes. By four thousand chimpanzees randomly hitting keys on a typewriter? No. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 861 Registered: 12-2004 |
Certain time period... BC? AD? CE? BCE? BBC? Precambrian era? General location... Oxford University? London? Orange County, Florida? Puerto Rico? Ireland? The United Kingdom? Asia minor? Asia major? The Indian subcontinent? Africa? Eurasia? The eastern hemisphere? Earth? The solar system? Galaxy/ super-mega-cluster/ universe? A certain... Larger entity than planet? Planet? Less than planet, more than hemisphere? Hemisphere? Less than hemisphere, more than continent? Continent? More than country, less than continent? Country? More than state/province/commonwealth/territory/etc., less than country? State/province/commonwealth/territory/etc.? More than county/parish/etc., less than state/province/commonwealth/territory/etc.? More than city/township/town/borough/polis/village/etc., less than county/parish/etc.? City/township/town/borough/polis/village/etc.? Less than city/township/town/borough/polis/village/etc.? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2003 |
(Laughs) You don't really need to know, but here's the song, in its entirety. There is something atypical and humorous about it, yet to those who enjoy folk music, it looks perfectly authentic. See if you can figure out why. My name is O'Reilly, I'm a sailor of yore I've sailed for the whales from the far western shore 'Twas on May thirty, in nineteen sixteen I joined the bold rebels with their whiskey so keen Chorus: Singing toorali-oorali-oorali-ay My dearest love Sally said "Do not ye go," To the wilds and the mountains of Ireland-O" "But I must go," I cried, "for my captain so lean Has fled to the rebels, with their whiskey so keen." My Captain I'd met him in Botany Bay I found him while wanderin', on a cold wintry day He cried, "I want a sailor for to hunt on the main" He signed me and fed me with whiskey so keen So long years I've traveled now, far on the seas Beaten and bitten, by the cat and the fleas Now I've gone to Dublin, where me love Sally Breen Cannot hold me back from the whiskey so keen Sally cried, "Willie, I pray ye, don't go, 'Tis treason and murder, tae hell ye will go," I said, "You are a Briton and I'm Irish Free, I'll slay you and drink of the whiskey so keen." She cried, "Dearest Willie, don't murder me dead," A raven it flew to me shoulder in dread. She gazed at the raven, as I drew my knife keen "I'll come back to haunt you, o'er your whiskey so keen." Well, Sally was right and her ghost came for me Wi' blood on her fingers, her breast and her knees And her ghost's sad screaming, the moans and the keens It drove me to drinkin' the whiskey so keen I fled to the mountains, the eyries so high And fought 'gainst the British for proud liberty I've killed me some Tommies, but was captured in green And now I will die without whiskey so keen And now as I stand here, o'er gallows so high And wait for to swing, twixt the earth and the sky Well, I wish I'd listened, tae Sally o' Breen, For ne'er more will I sip from the whiskey so keen. | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did you use the names of your fellow students /colleagues in the song? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 478 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did you use the names of your fellow students /colleagues in the song? No, and irrelevant. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 953 Registered: 12-2004 |
Any kind of an anachronism relevant? Linguistics relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 484 Registered: 5-2003 |
Any kind of an anachronism relevant? Linguistics relevant? No to both. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 994 Registered: 12-2004 |
I don't even know where to begin with this. So you took elements from songs, put them into one song, and turned it into something humorous. And then people said it didn't look like you wrote it yourself, and we have to figure out what is unusual about it and why they said that it didn't look like you wrote it yourself? I don't know, I'm confused. Can I request a recap? Perhaps only of relevant information? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1553 Registered: 1-2007 |
Like Doctapeppa I'm stuck on how to proceed with this. You've said repeatedly that the specific words are not relevant nor are the specific songs that inspired you. So it's not that you borrowed the old "Toorali Oorali Adi" Chorus or that you've spelled Whiskey the Irish way as opposed to the Scotch spelling Whisky. Recap would be great. Any chance of an alternative puzzle statement as I'm struggling to work out our task here. As a folk music fan I'm very interested in this so I want to persevere. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 485 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think I've either written the puzzle statement wrong or simply picked something I shouldn't have as a subject, but here goes: The song above looks like a traditional song, yet I wrote it in an inspired five minutes off the top of my head. How did I do it? No specific phrase or term is individually relevant, but altogether, there is something unusual and humorous about the song that has to do with how and why I wrote it. It has to do with what makes the song look "authentic." Hint to Peter: I DID deliberately borrow the 'Toorali' chorus, but not from any specific song -- which is why I responded 'no' to the questions about specific songs. After this puzzle is over, btw, I'd like to discuss how I could have written and refereed it better. I notice my other puzzles are having much the same problems. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 486 Registered: 5-2003 |
Perhaps more specifically, what is it about the elements I chose that is important? Doctapeppa essentially has the story down -- I pulled elements from other songs to make this one. Why those elements, and what is it about those elements that help make the song look authentic? And why did people consider the result humorous? Yet another example of how I'm doing this wrong... :p | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1564 Registered: 1-2007 |
Don;t worry about doing it wrong it's just a really tough puzzle.... The elements that make the song look authentic are: The notion of the Irish fighting the English? The Irish drinking culture? Your liberal use of words that may or may not rhyme with keane relevant? The references to 1916 and fighting Tommies in the mountains is somewhat confusing. Were British soldiers nicknamed Tommies then? The Easter Rising of 1916 was fought almost exclusively on the streets of Dublin and not in the mountains so is that relevant? btw I do like your song and was curious to know to what air you set it. I've been trying it to the tune of "Oh my name is Dick Darby I'm a cobbler" which works kinda well. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 490 Registered: 5-2003 |
The elements that make the song look authentic are: The notion of the Irish fighting the English? Yes, this is one. The Irish drinking culture? This is another. Your liberal use of words that may or may not rhyme with keane relevant? This wasn't as deliberate a borrowing, but as I went along I decided it worked. The references to 1916 and fighting Tommies in the mountains is somewhat confusing. Were British soldiers nicknamed Tommies then? Yes, they were. "Tommy Atkins" was popularized by Kipling, and is best known during WWI. The Easter Rising of 1916 was fought almost exclusively on the streets of Dublin and not in the mountains so is that relevant? Not really. On the one hand, no folksong I've ever seen is particularly interested in accuracy, and neither was I. On the other this could instead refer to the Troubles of the Irish Civil War afterward. Keep in mind that the Easter Rising was in April, and this song is set in May... btw I do like your song and was curious to know to what air you set it. I've been trying it to the tune of "Oh my name is Dick Darby I'm a cobbler" which works kinda well. Thanks. I didn't set it to any particular tune, but it works with Sweet Betsy From Pike and The Patriot Game. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1022 Registered: 12-2004 |
Is it because you were actually drunk when you wrote it? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 491 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is it because you were actually drunk when you wrote it? *chortle* No. Good guess though. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1033 Registered: 12-2004 |
Did the people consider the result humorous because of an incongruity? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 492 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did the people consider the result humorous because of an incongruity? Interesting question, actually. In fact, the result was NOT totally incongruous with real folksongs, which was what made it funny under the circumstances (which you still haven't worked out.) | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1145 Registered: 12-2004 |
Are you really an Irish sailor? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 493 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are you really an Irish sailor? No, I'm a Jewish librarian. :p | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1154 Registered: 12-2004 |
So you did something that made it seem that what you wrote was actually written by a person who actually wrote folk songs? As opposed to a Jewish librarian pretending to write a folk song? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2003 |
So you did something that made it seem that what you wrote was actually written by a person who actually wrote folk songs? As opposed to a Jewish librarian pretending to write a folk song? Yes. You already know how -- I swiped themes and elements from other songs. Peter365 has already spotted a few of them. The question is not so much why readers thought this looked authentic (here, I think, is where I made my initial mistake in the puzzle statement) but why the result was considered ironic and humorous. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1156 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was it ironic because there was an incongruity between: What was said and what was actually meant? What a character knows and what the audience knows? What is expected to happen and what actually happens? Something else? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 498 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was it ironic because there was an incongruity between: What was said and what was actually meant? Yes. What a character knows and what the audience knows? While the characters are unaware that their troubles are not their own, but stolen from other songs, this is not the source of the humor. What is expected to happen and what actually happens? No, the plot of the song is fairly typical. Something else? The first is most OTRT. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1269 Registered: 12-2004 |
So it was funny because it looked like you didn't write it but it obviously looks like you wrote it? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 502 Registered: 5-2003 |
So it was funny because it looked like you didn't write it but it obviously looks like you wrote it? No. It's funny for a reason external to the song itself. | ||
| Erinye (Erinye)
New member Username: Erinye Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2008 |
This is a completely stupid guess, but... "Willie" is a nickname for William, as is Bill... is our "friend" Bill O'Reilly relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 505 Registered: 5-2003 |
This is a completely stupid guess, but... "Willie" is a nickname for William, as is Bill... is our "friend" Bill O'Reilly relevant? Blinkblink. Would you believe I never noticed that before? But no, sorry. This was way before I even heard of Bill O'Reilly's show. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1297 Registered: 12-2004 |
Would one need to possess any kind of specialized knowledge to notice the humor? If so, in the field of... Mathematics? Science? Linguistics and language? History? Geography? Something else? | ||
| Erinye (Erinye)
New member Username: Erinye Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2008 |
Does this have anything to do with dialect? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 506 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would one need to possess any kind of specialized knowledge to notice the humor? If so, in the field of... (snipped) It helps to know some folk music, as Peter365 does. To folkies, under the circumstances in which I wrote the song, it was hilarious. Why? Does this have anything to do with dialect? Only in that I used it to imitate real Celtic music. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1364 Registered: 12-2004 |
What were the relevant kind of circumstances in which you wrote the song? The weather? The economy? Anarchy? Pomp and...? Something entirely different? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 511 Registered: 5-2003 |
The weather? The economy? Anarchy? Pomp and...? Something entirely different? This. Perhaps, instead of "circumstances," I should have said "reasons." | ||
| Erinye (Erinye)
New member Username: Erinye Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2008 |
Was it written for an assignment? A competition? By request? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 514 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was it written for an assignment? A competition? By request? None of the above, but the first two are OTRT. | ||
| Vagary (Vagary)
New member Username: Vagary Post Number: 162 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ws it written to perform at an AA meeting? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 515 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ws it written to perform at an AA meeting? No. lol | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1423 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was it written to be read? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 532 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was it written to be read? Yes. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1430 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was it written to be read by a certain person/ certain people? Was it written to be read by complete strangers? Was it part of a letter to Sarah Palin regarding the Georgia situation? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 533 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was it written to be read by a certain person/ certain people? Yes -- other folkies, specifically. Was it written to be read by complete strangers? Irrelevant. Was it part of a letter to Sarah Palin regarding the Georgia situation? blink -- no. This was like ten years ago, maybe more. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1433 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hmmm... was the reason you wrote it to make a point about how untrustworthy websites that pretend to be authoritative sources of information can turn out to be a big hoax? (e.g. the dihydrogen monoxide hoax) | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 537 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hmmm... was the reason you wrote it to make a point about how untrustworthy websites that pretend to be authoritative sources of information can turn out to be a big hoax? (e.g. the dihydrogen monoxide hoax) No, though I was making a certain (humorous) point. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1438 Registered: 12-2004 |
I see. Were you satirizing the Spanish Inquisition, by any chance? | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1439 Registered: 12-2004 |
Oh, and is the context in which which you asked others to read it relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 539 Registered: 5-2003 |
I see. Were you satirizing the Spanish Inquisition, by any chance? No. Oh, and is the context in which which you asked others to read it relevant? Yes. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1443 Registered: 12-2004 |
Did you email it to everyone in your address book, and you somehow got an automated OOF response from yourself (whom you knew was out of office)? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 543 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did you email it to everyone in your address book, and you somehow got an automated OOF response from yourself (whom you knew was out of office)? No. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1601 Registered: 1-2007 |
Was your ballad meant to tease or remind someone about some embarrassing incident? Not suggesting that any of your colleagues or friends have murdered their girlfriends or anything!! Was there any relevant event happinging in your life at the time of writing the song? in other peoples? Was your song in celebration of something? btw this puzzle is harder than stealing Trevelyn's corn or loading 8 million bales of nanny goats tails onto the hull of the Irish Rover :o) | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 367 Registered: 5-2007 |
The song contains certain obvious absurdities - for example, there is no such thing as a cold wintry day in Botany Bay, where the temperature never falls much below 8 degrees Celsius. Is the idea that folk-song devotees are prepared to believe such nonsense simply because Botany Bay features in some folk songs and cold wintry days in others? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 548 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was your ballad meant to tease or remind someone about some embarrassing incident? Not suggesting that any of your colleagues or friends have murdered their girlfriends or anything!! No. Was there any relevant event happinging in your life at the time of writing the song? in other peoples? Was your song in celebration of something? None of the above. The song contains certain obvious absurdities - for example, there is no such thing as a cold wintry day in Botany Bay, where the temperature never falls much below 8 degrees Celsius. Is the idea that folk-song devotees are prepared to believe such nonsense simply because Botany Bay features in some folk songs and cold wintry days in others? Not quite, but you're getting closer. Continue on this track! I was unaware that it doesn't get cold in Botany Bay, btw, but if I had known, I would still have written it thus. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 1633 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are there any relevant continuity errors in the lyrics? Other than the idea that it was cold in Botany Bay (in any case, Mr Woubit should know that 8 Celsius is more than enough to freeze the gonads off a wallaroo)? Do you have any relevant political beliefs which would make this song seem ironic? For instance, are you a teetotaller? An Ulster loyalist (not that there can be many Jewish librarians in the US who support Ian Paisley's lot, but one never knows)? Is the raven some sort of E.A. Poe reference? If so, is this relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 551 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are there any relevant continuity errors in the lyrics? Other than the idea that it was cold in Botany Bay (in any case, Mr Woubit should know that 8 Celsius is more than enough to freeze the gonads off a wallaroo)? There's a lot, actually, starting with the 'cat o' nine tails' which was not used on civilian ships or past the 19th century, but I thought it fit well in the song, and I did have a reason for it. Do you have any relevant political beliefs which would make this song seem ironic? For instance, are you a teetotaller? An Ulster loyalist (not that there can be many Jewish librarians in the US who support Ian Paisley's lot, but one never knows)? My political beliefs are irrelevant to the song. My dad does have a theory that someone stopped over in Edinburgh on the way to Ellis Island, though... Is the raven some sort of E.A. Poe reference? If so, is this relevant? It's not a Poe reference (it could've been a pigeon instead, but this was spookier. It does have another relevance, though. As a tip, Woubit is right on top of the answer. | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2007 |
I confess myself mystified, and might as well be right at the bottom of the answer. The song itself is a masterpiece of weightless poetry and, as a pastiche of "genuine" folk songs, is up there with Tom Lehrer's "Irish Ballad" or Noel Coward's "Rosie O'Grady". The former is so well known that homage would be superfluous, but I venture to quote a stanza of the latter below for those living, in the literal sense, beyond the pale: Our honeymoon started so blithely, so gaily, But dreams I was dreaming were suddenly wrecked, For she broke my front tooth with her father's shillelagh, Which wasn't what I had been led to expect. Is the notion simply that such an inspired parody could not have been the work of one not immersed in the folk tradition? | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1521 Registered: 12-2004 |
I believe I have asked this years ago, but I don't remember. What the fizzle is weightless poetry?! | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 552 Registered: 5-2003 |
I confess myself curious as well... as a pastiche of "genuine" folk songs, is up there with Tom Lehrer's "Irish Ballad" Yup, it's a pastiche. Why was I writing a pastiche of folksongs? Well, for pretty much the same reasons Tom Lehrer did! You are THIS freakin' close, so heck with it. **************************************************** SPOILER ************************************************** Circa 1998, people on a folk music discussion board are discussing folk song cliches. They begin writing a list of all the stereotypical elements found in folksong. It's a sort of "Idiot's Guide to Writing a Folksong." Let's tick some of them off: Does it start "All in the month of May?" Check. Does it feature a year? ("T'was in 18 hundred and '54, on May the thirteenth day...") Check. Does the protagonist have a back-breaking, dangerous job (logging, mining, whaling, etc)? Check. Is drink involved? (If the song is Irish, it better be.) Check. How about a lilting and annoyingly repetitive refrain? Check. Does it feature murder? Check. Of one's true love? Check. Botany Bay mentioned? Check. Rebellion against the perfidious English? Check. Execution (preferably by hanging)? Check. A ghost? Check. The original thread (with the entire list and a couple songs besides mine in it) can be found here: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2624#42333 Hopefully it was worth the trouble. Please discuss how I could have better put the puzzle statement. Were any specific answers misleading? | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2007 |
And what is more: The tune don't have to be clever And it don't matter if you put a couple [of] extra syllables into a line. It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English And it don't even gotta rhyme ... excuse me ... rhyne. Tom Lehrer, "The Folk Song Army". This, for Doctapeppa's consideration, is weightless poetry. For Jenburdoo's consideration, this was a marvellous puzzle, and I am glad to have seen her song. | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1609 Registered: 1-2007 |
Now that i see the answer it all becomes clear and we really should have gotten that sooner. It did occur to me early in the puzzle that there was a stereographical nature to it but I didn't pursue the notion. Well done for keeping folk music thriving. I'm reminded of Billy Connolly's little ditty about writing an american country song. He knew it had to include a close relative, a tragic death , religeon and someone with a disability. The title of his song was "My mother drowned in a grotto at Lourdes because a hunckback pushed her in" On an aside you mentioned the song "The Patriot Game" which is the story of Feargal O'Hanlon who died along side Sean South of Garryowen. O'Hanlon lived about 10 miles from where i was born so the song is very popular in my home town. Once again thanks for an entertaining puzzle. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1537 Registered: 12-2004 |
So what's a folk song? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 1635 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jeez , I just reread my last post on this puzzle and my god what was i thinking. For Stereographical read stereotypical. Also forgot to congratulate Jenburdoo on an excellent puzzle and a pretty cool song. Doctapeppa: Personally I think the term Traditional Music would better describe this song (well in Ireland anyway). To some particularly in the US folk music is defined as a modern interpretation of traditional music and many music "experts" would lump people like Dylan , Cash, Kristopherson and Leonard Cohen under the umbrella of Folk which puzzles me somewhat. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 565 Registered: 5-2003 |
Yes, traditional and folk music (and in the US, country and bluegrass) sort of shade together. "Traditional" music is usually anonymous; if a known writer like, say, Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan, writes a song of his own that's akin to traditional music, that's folk. Most national anthems fall under this definition, particularly if the lyrics have become changeable and anyone can sing their own version. Thanks for the compliments, Peter. I'm glad you liked it. | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1551 Registered: 12-2004 |
How many roads? |
