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Lateral Puzzles » Solved Lateral Thinking Puzzles » Solved Puzzles - April 2009 » [Doctapeppa] Okay, who swapped safe and illegal in the dictionary? « Previous Next »

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Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2039
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because he was concerned for people's safety, Jorge was arrested.

Early $P0!13R5 please email.
Finno (Finno)
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Post Number: 20
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 5:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

he: H? A? M?
Jorge: H? A? M?
he = Jorge?
If he were not concerned for people's safety, Jorge would never be arrested?
Jorge was arrested by whom? Police?
What problems did Jorge cause for people's safety?
People means normal citizens? People are not criminals or members of a gang?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 321
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 5:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is taking pictures or videos of public places relevant? Of police officers?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2047
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

he: H? Yep A? Yep M? Yep
Jorge: H? Yep Yep A? Yep M? Yep
he = Jorge? Yep
If he were not concerned for people's safety, Jorge would never be arrested? He would not, at least, have been arrested relevant to the puzzle.
Jorge was arrested by whom? Police? Yep
What problems did Jorge cause for people's safety? Yope
People means normal citizens? Yesish People are not criminals or members of a gang? Irrelevant


D Gordon:

Is taking pictures or videos of public places relevant? No Of police officers? No
Finno (Finno)
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Post Number: 31
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the police corrupt or not acting in people's interest?
Was Jorge trying to prevent something undertaken by government/emperor that could have caused problems for people?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2054
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Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Are the police corrupt or not acting in people's interest? No
Was Jorge trying to prevent something undertaken by government/emperor that could have caused problems for people? No
Finno (Finno)
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Post Number: 36
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Jorge a scientist, environmentalist, political leader?
Is his profession relevant?
Is he a criminal? Is the country & century in which this happened relevant?
Did anyone complain about Jorge to police? Did the police come to know about him from TV, Press, Internet, Magazines, other publications?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2063
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno

Is Jorge a scientist, environmentalist, political leader? Irrelevant
Is his profession relevant? Nope
Is he a criminal? Technically yes, because he committed a crime. Is the country & century in which this happened relevant? Yes. United States, 21st century
Did anyone complain about Jorge to police? Irrelevant Did the police come to know about him from TV, Press, Internet, Magazines, other publications? No or irrelevant
Finno (Finno)
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Post Number: 37
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 3:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his crime relevant? What was it - murder, robbery, theft, fraud?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2068
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 4:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Is his crime relevant? Yes What was it - murder, robbery, theft, fraud? None of these
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a crime involving children? Is this an example of many countries' over protective societies? Did he help a child across the road and get arrested as a paedophile?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2075
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Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peter365:

Is it a crime involving children? No Is this an example of many countries' over protective societies? No Did he help a child across the road and get arrested as a paedophile? No, but the concept is not too far away from the sort of thinking that would be helpful in this puzzle.
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this related to weird paranoia in the UK - like when a father was arrested for taking pictures of his own children, and only his own children, on a playground?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2077
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Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bolapara:

Is this related to weird paranoia in the UK - like when a father was arrested for taking pictures of his own children, and only his own children, on a playground? No. For one thing, I already said this took place in the U.S.
Kaygee (Kaygee)
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Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 1:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Jorge doing something unsafe?
Were his actions an attempt to point out a safety issue?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kaygee:

Was Jorge doing something unsafe? Not in my opinion.
Were his actions an attempt to point out a safety issue? Yesish, explore
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Jorge trying to show leakages in security systems like:
1. Sneaking into a non-civilian, high security territory?
2. Bringing prohibited stuff like knife, revolver onto an airplane?
3. Showing leakages in a software/website which would cause hacking?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2134
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Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Was Jorge trying to show leakages in security systems Nope like:
1. Sneaking into a non-civilian, high security territory? Nope
2. Bringing prohibited stuff like knife, revolver onto an airplane? Nope
3. Showing leakages in a software/website which would cause hacking? Nope
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a situation of misunderstanding? As in, he was trying to help with people's security but the police perceived it in a wrong way?
Where & when did this happen? Is the place and time relevant?
Is it a case of sting operation?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 3:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Is it a situation of misunderstanding? As in, he was trying to help with people's security but the police perceived it in a wrong way? No
Where & when did this happen? Yesish Is the place and time relevant? Yesish
Is it a case of sting operation? No
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it related to banking?
Did this happen in 19th century, 20th century?
The security issue that Alberto pointed out, does it stand corrected now?
Was Alberto released later when proven not guilty?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:
Is it related to banking? No
Did this happen in 19th century, 20th century? No. This happened in the 21st century.
The security issue that Alberto pointed out, does it stand corrected now? Not really
Was Alberto released later when proven not guilty? No
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this have happened in the 19th century? 18th century?
What punishment did Alberto receive? If he was jailed, for how long?
Had he not pointed out the safety issues, what safety problems would have encountered the people - murder? robbery? rape?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Could this have happened in the 19th century? Probably not 18th century? Nope
What punishment did Alberto receive? Yes If he was jailed, for how long? Yesish
Had he not pointed out the safety issues, what safety problems would have encountered the people Yope - murder? No robbery? No rape? No
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In continuation of previous questions about safety ...
Had he not pointed out the safety issues, what safety problems would have encountered the people - environmental problems? Water pollution? air pollution? food poisoning?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

In continuation of previous questions about safety ...
Had he not pointed out the safety issues, what safety problems would have encountered the people - environmental problems? No Water pollution? No air pollution? No food poisoning? No
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 5:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about two different sets of people here (Let's call them set 1 & set 2)? He was concerned about set 1 and that was against set 2 and hence he was arrested?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

Are we talking about two different sets of people here (Let's call them set 1 & set 2)? I suppose that in some really obscure way, you could say that. He was concerned about set 1 and that was against set 2 and hence he was arrested? Noish. You might want to find out the nature of his crime.
Finno (Finno)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 7:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What was his crime? Murder? Robbery? Fraud? Rape? Act against national interest? Racism?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Finno:

What was his crime? Hmmm... I feel like we've been here before... Murder? Nothing as drastic as this Robbery? Ditto Fraud? Ditto Rape? Ditto Act against national interest? Like espionage or treason? If so, then ditto Racism? I don't believe this is a crime in the United States (yet). However, there was nothing racist, sexist, or anything of that nature relevant to this puzzle. There was a hazard that would have been dangerous for anyone, regardless of sex, gender, religion, or physical appearance. Jorge simply tried to make the hazard less dangerous, and he was consequentially charged with a crime.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Animorphs relevant?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, March 23, 2009 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

D. Gordon:

Is Animorphs relevant? Unfortunately not
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his crime trespassing? Inciting panick?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 2:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bolapara:

Is his crime trespassing? Nay Inciting panick? Negative
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 5:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, my first post, I'll take a stab at it.

Is the particular safety issue he is concerned with relavent to solving this puzzle, or was he concerned about safety in general?
Was his concern about safety rational -- would a reasonable person share his concern?
Was his arrest directly connected to the safety issue in question?
Was his arrest due to innappropriate actions he took?
Would his actions have been appropriate in a different situation or would they always be illegal?
I'm assuming he was arrested due to actions he took -- is this correct?
Was Jorge involved in vigilantism?
Assuming Jorge's criminal actions were due to his concern for people's safety, were they intended to prevent the safety breach? Intervene during the hazardous situation? Respond after the fact?
Was Jorge mistaken about the nature of the danger?

Forgive the overlappging questions. Also, if you will indulge me in one off-topic query -- is there a FAQ or post that defines common abbreviations and conventions used in this forum? I couldn't find it.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, March 30, 2009 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, my first post, I'll take a stab at it. And what's a better place to do so then a Doctapeppa puzzle?

Is the particular safety issue he is concerned with relavent to solving this puzzle, or was he concerned about safety in general? The former
Was his concern about safety rational -- would a reasonable person share his concern? Yes
Was his arrest directly connected to the safety issue in question? Somewhat
Was his arrest due to innappropriate actions he took? Apparently the state attorney thought so.
Would his actions have been appropriate in a different situation or would they always be illegal? Hmmm... I suppose there could be a way that it would be appropriate.
I'm assuming he was arrested due to actions he took -- is this correct? Yes
Was Jorge involved in vigilantism? No, with perhaps a slight -ish.
Assuming Jorge's criminal actions were due to his concern for people's safety, were they intended to prevent the safety breach? Help reduce it, at least Intervene during the hazardous situation? Noish Respond after the fact? No
Was Jorge mistaken about the nature of the danger? No

Forgive the overlappging questions. Also, if you will indulge me in one off-topic query -- is there a FAQ or post that defines common abbreviations and conventions used in this forum? I couldn't find it.
You can check out my Wikipedia user page about the LTPF, "Getting Started", and the User Guide and FAQ. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask them in the Chatroom and a moderator or other experienced member will swoop down to your aid. Welcome to the LTPF!
Noobdogg (Noobdogg)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Jorge expect to get arrested? Was he aware that he was breaking a law?

Did the incident happen in a public place? On the road? Was he driving? Simply walking?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noobdogg:

Did Jorge expect to get arrested? Yesish Was he aware that he was breaking a law? Yes

Did the incident happen in a public place? Yes On the road? This one, and it is quite relevant Was he driving? Nope Simply walking? Not quite
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 3:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the type of road (public, toll, limited access, etc.) matter?

Assuming this is a modern road that automobiles drive upon, no?

Safety issue relate to cars? Driver safety? Pedestrian safety? Animal safety?

Was he obstructing or stopping traffic?

Was he stationary at the time of the offence?

Anybody else with him at the time?

Was he using accessories or tools in the commission of his crime?

Did his crime cause accidents?
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 4:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it because I was a corrupt police officer and he was trying to announce my crimes at the town meeting?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Does the type of road (public, toll, limited access, etc.) matter? Yesish. It was a public street.

Assuming this is a modern road that automobiles drive upon, no? Your assumption would be correct.

Safety issue relate to cars? Yes Driver safety? Perhaps Pedestrian safety? Yes Animal safety? Not likely

Was he obstructing or stopping traffic? No

Was he stationary at the time of the offence? Noish

Anybody else with him at the time? Irrelevant

Was he using accessories or tools in the commission of his crime? Hmmm... I guess you could say that.

Did his crime cause accidents? I doubt it.

Bolapara:

Was it because I was a corrupt police officer and he was trying to announce my crimes at the town meeting? Shhh! This may be a private posting area, but it is readable to the public. In any event, that matter of fact is not relevant to this puzzle in the slightest.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the safety issue of concern the risk of pedestrians being struck by vehicles?

Was Jorge arrested for swerving his vehicle at jaywalkers in order to frighten them into being more careful? Was he warning people about the presence of police?

Was he in a vehicle a the time of the offence? Was he on foot? If neither, is his location relavent?

We have identified four classes of participants in this problem -- cops, pedestrians, drivers, Jorge. Are there any other classes of people involved? Are there any subdivisions within the identified classes that are relavent? Is the specific number in each relavent?

Does the crime involve an attempt to communicate to (1) drivers, (2) pedestrians, (3) police, (4) other parties? Could his communication be considered to be a warning? If so, was the warning to the party at risk of danger? The party posing the risk?

Did police directly observe Jorge commit the crime? Did they respond to a complaint?

You gave a yesish to type of road and said it was public. Any other qualities of the road relavant? Speed of traffic? one way versus two way? Geographical location? Weather conditions?

Is weather, season, or time of day relevant?

Are personal situations, roles or identies of any of the participants relavent? For example, we have pedestrians - could they be immigrants crossing the border trying to cross a busy freeway?

Off-topic question: is this type of questioning considered to be a sledgehammer approach and bad etiquette?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Is the safety issue of concern the risk of pedestrians being struck by vehicles? Primarily, yes

Was Jorge arrested for swerving his vehicle at jaywalkers in order to frighten them into being more careful? No Was he warning people about the presence of police? No

Was he in a vehicle a the time of the offence? No Was he on foot? Probably, because he was not in a vehicle If neither, is his location relavent?

We have identified four classes of participants in this problem -- cops, pedestrians, drivers, Jorge. Are there any other classes of people involved? Not really Are there any subdivisions within the identified classes that are relavent? I don't think so Is the specific number in each relavent? No

Does the crime involve an attempt to communicate to (1) drivers This one, primarily, (2) pedestrians, (3) police, (4) other parties? Could his communication be considered to be a warning? Possibly If so, was the warning to the party at risk of danger? Yes The party posing the risk? Yes

Did police directly observe Jorge commit the crime? Yes Did they respond to a complaint? Irrelevant

You gave a yesish to type of road and said it was public. Any other qualities of the road relavant? Not really Speed of traffic? one way versus two way? Geographical location? Weather conditions? None of these

Is weather, season, or time of day relevant? No

Are personal situations, roles or identies of any of the participants relavent? No For example, we have pedestrians - could they be immigrants crossing the border trying to cross a busy freeway? Nothing like this

Off-topic question: is this type of questioning considered to be a sledgehammer approach and bad etiquette? I do not consider it bad etiquette at all. Your goal is to try to solve the puzzle by asking yes or no questions, and the more good questions you can think of, the better. What I would consider bad etiquette would be if the questions really had nothing to do with the actual situation, but merely about a method of communicating the response. For example, if someone were to ask, "Does the answer begin with A? B? C? D? ... Z? Is the second letter A? B? C? D? ... Z? Is the third letter... ... Is the last letter A? B? ... Z?" I would probably not answer those questions.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You answered earlier that he expected to get arrested -- was his an act of cival disobedience (certainly he was disobeying the law, but was it done in an intentional way to make a political statement)? Was Jorge trying to make an example of himself? Others? Other than arresting Jorge, do the police play any other role in this story?

Was Jorge testing the police's ability to detect and/or arrest him for his crime?

Primary risk is of pedestrians being hit by vehicles. Are there secondary risks that are relavent (other than the risk of Jorge being arrested)?

Assumption check -- I am assuming that Jorge's illegal actions were related to his attempt to communicate to the others and that he did not commit crimes unrelated to that purpose. Is this accurate?

I am now thinking of determining specifically what it was about Jorge's actions that made them illegal -- will this be a fruitful line of inquiry?

Is the problem with his means of communication? To whom he was communicating? How he was communicating? What he was communicating? When he was communicating? Where he was communicating? The fact that he was communicating at all?

In addition to Jorge's action, were others committing illegal acts; i.e., drivers speeding, pedestrians jaywalking?

Jorge's physical location relevant? Side of road, middle of road, on an overpass?

Earlier, I had asked if he had used accessories or tools and you said I could say that. Will determining what these objects are be helpful?

Were any of Jorge's actions bizarre? Was this a crusade for him? Was he displaying a sign? Was his method of communication visual? Audio? Physical? Did he touch any of the people or their cars? Did he throw anything?

Seems like I'm missing a wrinkle. Does this story have a quirk or unusual aspect to it? Would it likely appear on a local newscast as a humorous "just when you think you've seen it all" story?

I've tried to cast wide net with my questions. Are there important elements that fall completely outside of the scope of the questions asked so far?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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You answered earlier that he expected to get arrested -- was his an act of cival disobedience (certainly he was disobeying the law, but was it done in an intentional way to make a political statement)? Noish Was Jorge trying to make an example of himself? No Others? No Other than arresting Jorge, do the police play any other role in this story? No

Was Jorge testing the police's ability to detect and/or arrest him for his crime? No

Primary risk is of pedestrians being hit by vehicles. Are there secondary risks that are relavent (other than the risk of Jorge being arrested)? Yes. Other things/people being hit by vehicles.

Assumption check -- I am assuming that Jorge's illegal actions were related to his attempt to communicate to the others and that he did not commit crimes unrelated to that purpose. Is this accurate? Yes

I am now thinking of determining specifically what it was about Jorge's actions that made them illegal -- will this be a fruitful line of inquiry? Yes

Is the problem with his means of communication? Yes To whom he was communicating? No How he was communicating? Yes What he was communicating? Noish When he was communicating? Noish Where he was communicating? Yes The fact that he was communicating at all? Noish

In addition to Jorge's action, were others committing illegal acts; Yes i.e., drivers speeding, pedestrians jaywalking? Technically, no. If you replace i.e. with e.g., then yes.

Jorge's physical location relevant? Yes Side of road, middle of road This is best, on an overpass?

Earlier, I had asked if he had used accessories or tools and you said I could say that. Will determining what these objects are be helpful? He was doing a specific action that involves using specific objects. Once you determine what action he was undertaking, this puzzle is just about solved.

Were any of Jorge's actions bizarre? That is a subjective question, but his actions were certainly not normal. Was this a crusade for him? That is quite possible Was he displaying a sign? No Was his method of communication visual? This one Audio? Physical? Did he touch any of the people or their cars? No Did he throw anything? No

Seems like I'm missing a wrinkle. Does this story have a quirk or unusual aspect to it? Yesish Would it likely appear on a local newscast as a humorous "just when you think you've seen it all" story? It would certainly be "Odd News."

I've tried to cast wide net with my questions. Are there important elements that fall completely outside of the scope of the questions asked so far? Not really. This puzzle seems to be nearing its conclusion. Keep trying to fill in the blanks.
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 4:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some quickies:

Thanks for the clarificaion on i.e, vs e.g. I have been misusing that for years. Others were committing illegal acts. Drivers? Pedestrians? Was their crime speeding, jaywalking, obstructing traffic, driving on the wrong side of the road? Using lights incorrectly? Failing to signal? Failing to yield right of way? Vehicle code violations?

Were others committing the same crime as Jorge?

Was Jorge impersonating an officer and directing traffic in an unauthorized manner?

Were the objects used by Jorge intended to be used in the manner in which Jorge was using them? Did he hold these in his hands? Did he gesture with them?

Was Jorge singling out particular drivers or pedestrians?

Vehicles other than cars involved?

Was Jorge's appearance unusual, e.g., manner of dress?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Some quickies:

Thanks for the clarificaion on i.e, vs e.g. I have been misusing that for years. I must confess that I am also guilty of misuse of Latin abbreviations. Others were committing illegal acts. Drivers? This one Pedestrians? Was their crime speeding, jaywalking, obstructing traffic, driving on the wrong side of the road? No Using lights incorrectly? Nope Failing to signal? Negative Failing to yield right of way? This is close Vehicle code violations? Not really

Were others committing the same crime as Jorge? No

Was Jorge impersonating an officer and directing traffic in an unauthorized manner? No...

Were the objects used by Jorge intended to be used in the manner in which Jorge was using them? I would say so Did he hold these in his hands? Probably, unless he has extremely good dexterity with his feet Did he gesture with them? No

Was Jorge singling out particular drivers or pedestrians? No

Vehicles other than cars involved? No

Was Jorge's appearance unusual, e.g., manner of dress? No
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 6:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Drivers failing to yield, or close to that. Were the drivers running red-lights? Running stop signs? Failing to stop for pedestrians? Failing to adhere to signs? Traffic laws? Were the cars in the normal flow of traffic? Proceeding a forward direction?

As to the objects, were these intended to be used for signaling drivers? Flags? Do they have lights? Reflectors? Were they radar guns? Did they include electronics? Would these objects be owned by most people? Mostly by police? Do they have moving parts? Guns?

Was Jorge trying to get drivers to slow down? Stop? Speed up? Drive in a different path or direction? Was he standing where the cars he was signaling could hit him?

Was it likely that Jorge was irritated with drivers? Pedestrians? Were Jorge's safety concerns directly related to the specific illegal actions being committed by the drivers?

Of these topics, which of these is the most relevant to solving the puzzle? The least?
- Objects used by Jorge?
- Actions of drivers committing illegal acts?
- Driver action desired by Jorge?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere

Drivers failing to yield, or close to that. Were the drivers running red-lights? Running stop signs? <b>This one</u> Failing to stop for pedestrians? Failing to adhere to signs? Traffic laws? Were the cars in the normal flow of traffic? Proceeding a forward direction?

As to the objects, were these intended to be used for signaling drivers? Yope Flags? No Do they have lights? No Reflectors? No Were they radar guns? No Did they include electronics? No Would these objects be owned by most people? Probably by a great number of people Mostly by police? No Do they have moving parts? It depends Guns? No

Was Jorge trying to get drivers to slow down? This one Stop? And this one Speed up? Drive in a different path or direction? Was he standing where the cars he was signaling could hit him? Yope, possible FA

Was it likely that Jorge was irritated with drivers? This one Pedestrians? Were Jorge's safety concerns directly related to the specific illegal actions being committed by the drivers? Yes

Of these topics, which of these is the most relevant to solving the puzzle? The least?
- Objects used by Jorge?
- Actions of drivers committing illegal acts?
- Driver action desired by Jorge?
All of these are very relevant. Just figure out how he tried to encourage drivers to stop at stop signs that resulted in his arrest.
Spackspartan (Spackspartan)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he obsturct traffic?
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Ouch -- I posted a lengthy follow-up series of questions here yesterday but they did not appear.

Moral to the story -- save to a document before posting. Will re-post as soon as I can retype.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Spackspartan:
Did he obsturct traffic? Irrelevant
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay, here’s what I have so far: Jorge does not want people to run or roll through stop signs so he is out there with one or more objects attempting to cause the drivers to slow down or stop and to drive safely. The cue to the drivers is visual – he is not throwing the objects or touching the cars. To solve the puzzle we need to figure out what the objects are, and what he is doing with them.

Correct so far? No false assumptions?

Seems like there should be a standard lateral puzzle method for identifying an object. Here goes:

Is the object single or multiple?
If multiple objects
- Are all the object the same?
- Are there various different objects?
- Are there relatively few distinct objects, e.g., 5 pots and pans, or an indistinctly large set of objects, e.g., wheelbarrel full of gravel.

What reaction is the object likely or intended to produce in the drivers: fear, disgust, laughter, curiosity, guilt, surprise, attention, bewilderment, anger?

Is the object manmade? What is its primary purpose – tool, decoration, raw material, disposable, weapon, communication, toy, furniture, foodstuff?

Is the object typically located indoors? In a residential setting? If indoors, is it associated with a particular room in the house?

Is the object made of a single material, or does it consist of multiple materials? Is it a single item, e.g., bucket, or a composite item, e.g., bucket of water?

Does the object consist of or include organic material? Wood? Metal? Ceramic? Plastic? Liquids? Gasses?

Does the object smell? Make noise? Will it change state or appearance if left outside for a day?

Can I buy one of these objects? If so, can I buy it at a grocery store? Hardware store? Walmart? Would it cost less than 50 cents, 5 dollars, 50 dollars, 500 dollars?

Does it weigh less than an ounce, pound, 10 pounds, 100 pounds? Is it fragile, solid, brittle, flexible, squishable?

You mentioned that moving parts are a maybe? Do some of these objects have moving parts and others do not?

Was there writing on the objects? Did he intend that drivers would read the writing?

What was he doing with these objects – displaying them for the drivers to see? Placing them in the road? Placing them in such a way to direct attention to the stop sign? Waving them?

Physical dimensions – is the largest dimension less than an inch? 4 inches? A foot? Three feet?

Slenderness – is the object blunt (like a bowling ball)? Slender like a pencil? Somewhere between? Does it have multiple appendages?

Appearance – solid or multiple colors? If multiple colors, are the colors separate and distinct?

Are these objects associated with children? Males? Females? Students?

Would the use of the object by Jorge conceivable produce physical harm or damage? If so, would it be to drivers? cars? pedestrians? or Jorge? Or would the crime primarily cause mental anguish?

Was Jorge putting tacks in the road so that car tires would run over them?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Okay, here’s what I have so far: Jorge does not want people to run or roll through stop signs so he is out there with one or more objects attempting to cause the drivers to slow down or stop and to drive safely. The cue to the drivers is visual – he is not throwing the objects or touching the cars. To solve the puzzle we need to figure out what the objects are, and what he is doing with them.

Correct so far? I would say so. No false assumptions? None that I can see right now.

Seems like there should be a standard lateral puzzle method for identifying an object. Here goes:

Is the object single or multiple? He probably had at least two objects
If multiple objects
- Are all the object the same?
- Are there various different objects?
- Are there relatively few distinct objects, e.g., 5 pots and pans, or an indistinctly large set of objects, e.g., wheelbarrel full of gravel.
The objects were different distinct objects that are intended to be used with each other

What reaction is the object likely or intended to produce in the drivers: fear, disgust, laughter, curiosity, guilt, surprise, attention This was the intention, bewilderment, anger?

Is the object manmade? Yes What is its primary purpose – tool Probably this, decoration This is also possible, raw material, disposable, weapon, communication, toy, furniture, foodstuff?

Is the object typically located indoors? Yesish In a residential setting? Yesish If indoors, is it associated with a particular room in the house? No

Is the object made of a single material, or does it consist of multiple materials? It depends, probably multiple materials. Is it a single item, e.g., bucket, or a composite item, e.g., bucket of water? It depends

Does the object consist of or include organic material? It depends Wood? This is quite possible Metal? This is quite possible Ceramic? Plastic? This is possible Liquids? Yes Gasses?

Does the object smell? Possibly Make noise? Noish Will it change state or appearance if left outside for a day? Possibly

Can I buy one of these objects? Yes If so, can I buy it at a grocery store? Hardware store? This one Walmart Probably this as well ? Would it cost less than 50 cents, 5 dollars, 50 dollars, 500 dollars? Probably between $5 and $50.

Does it weigh less than an ounce, pound, 10 pounds, 100 pounds? It depends Is it fragile, solid, brittle, flexible, squishable? It depends

You mentioned that moving parts are a maybe? Do some of these objects have moving parts and others do not? I think so

Was there writing on the objects? Possibly Did he intend that drivers would read the writing? No

What was he doing with these objects – displaying them for the drivers to see? Yesish, but beware possible FA Placing them in the road? Yesish Placing them in such a way to direct attention to the stop sign? Yope Waving them? No

Physical dimensions – is the largest dimension less than an inch? 4 inches? A foot? Three feet? It depends

Slenderness – is the object blunt (like a bowling ball)? Slender like a pencil? Somewhere between? Does it have multiple appendages? It depends

Appearance – solid or multiple colors? If multiple colors, are the colors separate and distinct? It depends

Are these objects associated with children? Males? This is most likely Females? Students?

Would the use of the object by Jorge conceivable produce physical harm or damage? Yesish If so, would it be to drivers? cars? pedestrians? or Jorge? None of these Or would the crime primarily cause mental anguish? No

Was Jorge putting tacks in the road so that car tires would run over them? No
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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The following items are coming to mind -- which ones are closest?
- Containers of garbage
- Balloons filled with paint
- Water balloons
- Sprinklers
- Containers of gasoline, fuel or chemicals
- Bags of stuff

I was going to say fireworks but you say there are liquid involved

Is the reason we have multiple materials because the object is a container of some kind that holds multiple objects?

How was it that the objects would capture the intention of the drivers:
- They would fall in the driver's field of view?
- They were close to or obscuring the stop sign?
- The object was a really weird thing to see in this particular setting?
- The object was bright?

Trying to understand why you cannot specify the size and appearance -- is it because the story is ambiguous on this point and the objects in question come in a wide range of sizes and appearances? Or is because the object actually can change its size and appearance as it is being used?

Are the objects inflatable?

Was Jorge moving his garbage cans as part of this story?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

The following items are coming to mind -- which ones are closest?
- Containers of garbage
- Balloons filled with paint This is closest
- Water balloons
- Sprinklers
- Containers of gasoline, fuel or chemicals
- Bags of stuff

I was going to say fireworks but you say there are liquid involved

Is the reason we have multiple materials because the object is a container of some kind that holds multiple objects? Noish

How was it that the objects would capture the intention of the drivers:
- They would fall in the driver's field of view? Yesish
- They were close to or obscuring the stop sign?
- The object was a really weird thing to see in this particular setting?
- The object was bright?

Trying to understand why you cannot specify the size and appearance -- is it because the story is ambiguous on this point and the objects in question come in a wide range of sizes and appearances? This-ish Or is because the object actually can change its size and appearance as it is being used?

Are the objects inflatable? No

Was Jorge moving his garbage cans as part of this story? No
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balloons full of paint were the closest. Was this due to the balloon, or the paint?

Did he have a paint ball gun?

I'm now concluding he had flexible containers of fluids of some kind. Is this correct?

As to the container:
Rubber balloon?
Plastic bag?
Organic casing?
Condom?
Paper bag?
Expandable hose?
Was it transparent so its contents would be displayed?
Having a hard time reconciling the previous answer that it is made up of all kinds of different materials.

As to the fluid:
Paint?
Ink?
Water?
Organic fluids?
Drinks?
Beer?
Was the fluid watery? Or viscous?
Can I safely drink this fluid?
Does the fluid have a single purpose? If so, is it to mark (like paint)?
Is it petroleum based?
Acidic? Alkaline?

I don't seem to be making progress on understanding what he was doing with these things -- he wasn't throwing them.
Was he brandishing them in a menacing way?
Winding up as though ready to throw them?
Spreading the liquid on the road?

It seems that if he has an object, there needs to be some focus or target for the object. For example, if he has paint, then perhaps the car or stop sign are targets if he intends to paint them. If he has a rock that he is threatening to throw, then the car is the target. Holding up a sign -- eyeballs would be a target.

So, given that he is holding an object, is there a target of the object? Would it be drivers eyeballs, car, pedestrian, road, stop sign, Jorge, some other relevant target?

As to the illegality of his action, would it relate to:
- Potential for property damage?
- Theft?
- Obstruction of traffic?
- Disturbing the peace?
- Disorderly conduct?
- Jay-walking or improper location of a pedestrian?
- Assault?
- Harassment?

As to his communication to the drivers, which of the following messages is closest to what Jorge was communicating:
- Be aware of this stop sign. This object is to only to get your attention, but will not be used in any harmful way.
- Drive safe or else. I am going to use this object to punish you or others.

I'm stuck on the throwing business. Did the object never leave his hand? Was there spraying involved? Spreading of the liquid on the road? When he left, was any part of the object left behind?

Going back to the question about whether it was possible that the object could cause damage -- you said yes, but not to any of the targets I listed -- would it damage the stop sign, road, environment?

Clarifying the wide range of materials, sizes and characteristics of the object -- I already asked about this, but I want to make sure I understand. Did Jorge use objects that consisted of many different materials and characteristics, some with moving parts, others without, some weighing very little, some weighing alot, some that made noise, some that did not, some with multiple colors, some without, some slender, some blunt, some small, some large, etc? Or is it more accurate to say that the object he used comes in many varieties, and the story does not specify which variety of the object he used?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Balloons full of paint were the closest. Was this due to the balloon, or the paint? The latter

Did he have a paint ball gun? Probably not

I'm now concluding he had flexible containers of fluids of some kind. Is this correct? Probably not

As to the container:
Rubber balloon?
Plastic bag?
Organic casing?
Condom?
Paper bag?
Expandable hose?
Was it transparent so its contents would be displayed?
Having a hard time reconciling the previous answer that it is made up of all kinds of different materials. FA

As to the fluid:
Paint? This one
Ink?
Water?
Organic fluids?
Drinks?
Beer?
Was the fluid watery? Or viscous?
Can I safely drink this fluid?
Does the fluid have a single purpose? Paint has more than one purpose If so, is it to mark (like paint)? This is one
Is it petroleum based?
Acidic? Alkaline?

I don't seem to be making progress on understanding what he was doing with these things -- he wasn't throwing them.
Was he brandishing them in a menacing way? No
Winding up as though ready to throw them? No
Spreading the liquid on the road? Yes

It seems that if he has an object, there needs to be some focus or target for the object. For example, if he has paint, then perhaps the car or stop sign are targets if he intends to paint them. If he has a rock that he is threatening to throw, then the car is the target. Holding up a sign -- eyeballs would be a target.

So, given that he is holding an object, is there a target of the object? Yes Would it be drivers eyeballs, car, pedestrian, road this one, stop sign, Jorge, some other relevant target?

As to the illegality of his action, would it relate to:
- Potential for property damage? This-ish
- Theft?
- Obstruction of traffic?
- Disturbing the peace?
- Disorderly conduct?
- Jay-walking or improper location of a pedestrian?
- Assault?
- Harassment?

As to his communication to the drivers, which of the following messages is closest to what Jorge was communicating:
- Be aware of this stop sign. This object is to only to get your attention, but will not be used in any harmful way. This one
- Drive safe or else. I am going to use this object to punish you or others.

I'm stuck on the throwing business. Did the object never leave his hand? Correct Was there spraying involved? Possibly, but I doubt it Spreading of the liquid on the road? Yes When he left, was any part of the object left behind? Yes

Going back to the question about whether it was possible that the object could cause damage -- you said yes, but not to any of the targets I listed -- would it damage the stop sign, road This one, environment?

Clarifying the wide range of materials, sizes and characteristics of the object -- I already asked about this, but I want to make sure I understand. Did Jorge use objects that consisted of many different materials and characteristics, some with moving parts, others without, some weighing very little, some weighing alot, some that made noise, some that did not, some with multiple colors, some without, some slender, some blunt, some small, some large, etc? Or is it more accurate to say that the object he used comes in many varieties, and the story does not specify which variety of the object he used? This one
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 1:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay -- lets see what we have at this point --
Is he applying paint to the road surface?
Is he painting markings on the road like a road crew would normally do?
Is he painting in a cross walk? Words like "Stop Ahead"? A hash-mark threshold at the stop sign? Centerlines or lines defining the shoulder?

Was the marking ahead before, adjacent, or after the stop sign (in the direction of the traffic)?

Was one of the objects a paint brush or roller to apply the paint? A container of paint?

Is there more to the story than he was out painting the road, e.g., he had tried unsuccessfully to get the city to paint the road and took matters into his own hands?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere:

Okay -- lets see what we have at this point --
Is he applying paint to the road surface? Yes
Is he painting markings on the road like a road crew would normally do? Yes
Is he painting in a cross walk? Yope Words like "Stop Ahead"? No... A hash-mark threshold at the stop sign? Not quite Centerlines or lines defining the shoulder? No

Was the marking ahead before, adjacent, or after the stop sign (in the direction of the traffic)? Yesish

Was one of the objects a paint brush or roller to apply the paint? Most likely A container of paint? Most likely

Is there more to the story than he was out painting the road, e.g., he had tried unsuccessfully to get the city to paint the road and took matters into his own hands? Exactly. This is good enough for a....

************SPOILER********************

This puzzle is based on an event reported as follows by The Indy Channel:



quote:

MUNCIE, Ind. -- Whitney Stump didn't like watching drivers ignore the stop signs at the intersection outside his home, so he asked the city to paint crosswalks there.

When the city said no, he made one himself. And the city wasn't appreciative.

Stump, a 27-year-old Ball State University graduate student and father, says he was arrested in July on a charge of criminal mischief for creating the crosswalk at the intersection of Dicks and North streets. A police officer then warned him after he went back to touch up the paint in August, and the county prosecutor decided to charge him again.

"If they're not going to provide a safe environment for me and my community, then I believe I have a moral obligation," Stump told 6News' Ray Cortopassi on Wednesday.

Stump said he first asked the city to do the job, thinking crosswalks would get drivers' attentions and make them aware they needed to slow down.

"I called the street and sign department probably a half-dozen times in the course of six months (to) a year," he said.

But the city said painting a crosswalk in a residential area is not necessary unless the intersection is near a school. In Stump's case, the intersection isn't.

So Stump bought some paint and used it to create a crosswalk at one of the intersection's four spokes.

"I used spray paint on the outline, and went to Wal-Mart, where they had a sale on ... white paint and rolled it out," he said.

Stump said he didn't hear about the second charge right away, causing him to miss a court appearance. Because he missed his court date, he spent 10 hours in jail.

The city hasn't covered up the crosswalk. Stump said he intends to paint crosswalks on the intersection's other three spokes.

Copyright 2008 by TheIndyChannel.com All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.




From http://www.theindychannel.com/news/15181455/detail.html.

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