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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 4409
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When brought up on the charge of of plagiarism, Roxanne asked the dean a question that may seem irrelevant--but wasn't. What was the question?
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

had Roxanne actually committed plagiarism? relevant? had anyone else? relevant?

was the question about how the plagiarism had been detected? about who had been plagiarised? about when it seemed to have taken place?

was it a hypothetical question? was she asking what the dean would do in a certain situation?

did the question relate to the dean? to another member of staff? to the subject area of the piece of work? to something else Roxanne had done? to another piece of work she had submitted?

are computer programmes for plagiarism detection relevant here?

was the question aimed at determining the definition of plagiarism they were using? was it asked in order to defend the charge? to find out information? that would then help to defend the charge?
was the question designed to make the dean think that plagiarism hadn't taken place? or that someone else had committed the act?

is Roxanne a student? a member of academic staff? was the accusation about a piece of course work submitted by a student? about an academic paper submitted for publication? was the accusation that Roxanne had copied a colleague? a fellow student? had copied work from another researcher? had copied from the internet? from a book?

is the subject relevant here?

is it relevant who heard her ask the question? was it a rhetorical question? relevant whether the question was put in writing or made verbally?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
had Roxanne actually committed plagiarism? yes relevant? yes had anyone else? yes relevant? yes

was the question about how the plagiarism had been detected? noabout who had been plagiarised? no about when it seemed to have taken place? no

was it a hypothetical question? no was she asking what the dean would do in a certain situation? no

did the question relate to the dean? noto another member of staff? no to the subject area of the piece of work? no to something else Roxanne had done? no to another piece of work she had submitted? no

are computer programmes for plagiarism detection relevant here? no

was the question aimed at determining the definition of plagiarism they were using? no was it asked in order to defend the charge? yope to find out information? noish that would then help to defend the charge? noish
was the question designed to make the dean think that plagiarism hadn't taken place? no or that someone else had committed the act? no

is Roxanne a student? irrela member of academic staff? irrel was the accusation about a piece of course work submitted by a student? irrelabout an academic paper submitted for publication? irrel was the accusation that Roxanne had copied a colleague? irrel a fellow student? irrelhad copied work from another researcher? irrel had copied from the internet? irrel from a book? irrel

is the subject relevant here? no

is it relevant who heard her ask the question? yeswas it a rhetorical question? no relevant whether the question was put in writing or made verbally? no
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Roxanne deny that she committed plaigiarism? Maintain that her plagiarism wasn't "that bad"? Did Roxanne feel that she was being scapegoated?

Was her question trying to show that the university's method of catching plagiarism was inconsistent? That their policy on who to challenge and investigate for plagiarism is wrong?

Which of the following, if any, best resemble Roxanne's question (or the end result of a series of questions):

"Why did(n't) you...?"
"Have(n't) you ever...?"
"Why shouldn't I...?"

"Why am I being punished?"
"Why isn't person/people x also being punished?"
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 12:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 11:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does Roxanne deny that she committed plaigiarism? no Maintain that her plagiarism wasn't "that bad"? yesishDid Roxanne feel that she was being scapegoated? no

Was her question trying to show that the university's method of catching plagiarism was inconsistent? no That their policy on who to challenge and investigate for plagiarism is wrong? noish

Which of the following, if any, best resemble Roxanne's question (or the end result of a series of questions):

"Why did(n't) you...?"
"Have(n't) you ever...?"
"Why shouldn't I...?"

"Why am I being punished?"
"Why isn't person/people x also being punished?" None is very close but the last is least far away
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 4:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the question have the effect of suggesting that Roxanne's offense was common? That similar offenses had been committed by others? Aided and abetted by others? Accepted by others? Was not, technically, against regulations? Was not, technically, plagiarism?

Did she indirectly accuse anyone of plagiarism? Some other breach of school regulations?

Did her question indirectly apply to her situation? Did it bring something to light? Did the dean answer her question? Did he need to? Is the answer relevant?

Was the question about a person? Place? Event? Object? Something intangible? An action?

If we knew what the question was, would the answer be obvious, or is there more to this situation? Is anyone involved besides Roxanne and the Dean? Is anyone else present during the questioning?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 4:49 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did the question have the effect of suggesting that Roxanne's offense was common?no That similar offenses had been committed by others? yesish or yope Aided and abetted by others?b{ no}Accepted by others? yope Was not, technically, against regulations? noWas not, technically, plagiarism? no

Did she indirectly accuse anyone of plagiarism? no Some other breach of school regulations? no

Did her question indirectly apply to her situation? yesish Did it bring something to light? yesishDid the dean answer her question? irrel Did he need to? dittoIs the answer relevant? yes

Was the question about a person? yesish Place? no Event? no Object? noSomething intangible? no An action? no

If we knew what the question was, would the answer be obviousThe answer to the question would be yesishly obvious. Once you knew the question, you would be close to solving the puzzle, but there would be another step, or is there more to this situation? see previous answer Is anyone involved besides Roxanne and the Dean? yes Is anyone else present during the questioning? irrel
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there undiscovered relevant details about Roxanne's case of plagiarism? Did she actually try to represent someone else's ideas as her own? Or did she "borrow" someone else's wording in explaining something like a background concept or an experimental procedure?

Did she ask the question in order to raise the point that sometimes it is good to use other people's ideas, even without getting their permission or giving them credit? That sometimes there are a limited number of ways of explaining the same idea, so it is impossible to avoid duplicating someone else's explanation, and it is silly to even try? That plagiarism is unavoidable for some other reason? That banning plagiarism (or a particular type of plagiarism) is unwise for some other reason?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 5:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are there undiscovered relevant details about Roxanne's case of plagiarism? no Did she actually try to represent someone else's ideas as her own? possibly Or did she "borrow" someone else's wording in explaining something like a background concept or an experimental procedure? possibly

Did she ask the question in order to raise the point that sometimes it is good to use other people's ideas, even without getting their permission or giving them credit? no That sometimes there are a limited number of ways of explaining the same idea, so it is impossible to avoid duplicating someone else's explanation, and it is silly to even try? noThat plagiarism is unavoidable for some other reason? noThat banning plagiarism (or a particular type of plagiarism) is unwise for some other reason? no
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Her question was(ish) about a person: Just one person? A few specific people? A large group of people? One or more hypothetical/fictional persons? Was it about herself? about the dean? about someone else at her university? someone else who had been accused of plagiarism? someone else who had plagiarized? someone who had had his or her work plagiarized?
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the question itself evidence of plagiarism? Or exculpatory in nature?

In denying the charge of plagiarism and asking the question, did Roxanne accidently divulge information that she proclaimed she did not know?

What was relevant about the question -- the information that the question requested? The information embedded in the question? The wording of the question itself? Inferences that could be drawn from the question?
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is plagiarism an essential element of the puzzle? Would the puzzle still work if Roxanne had violated a different university rule?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 4:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Was the question itself evidence of plagiarism? no Or exculpatory in nature? noish

In denying the charge of plagiarism false assumptionand asking the question, did Roxanne accidently divulge information that she proclaimed she did not know? no

What was relevant about the question -- the information that the question requested? yes The information embedded in the question? noish The wording of the question itself? no Inferences that could be drawn from the question? yesish
Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 5:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is plagiarism an essential element of the puzzle? yes Would the puzzle still work if Roxanne had violated a different university rule? no
Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she simply forget to cite her source? Was the Dean spouting off something about disappointment/morals and quoted somebody? And she asked "who said that?" and he couldn't remember?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 4:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe you missed a couple of Buzzard's questions:
Her question was(ish) about a person: Just one person? A few specific people? A large group of people? One or more hypothetical/fictional persons? Was it about herself? about the dean? about someone else at her university? someone else who had been accused of plagiarism? someone else who had plagiarized? someone who had had his or her work plagiarized?

Is the subject of the plagarized work relevant? Is she simply pointing out that the university has a larger problem than plagarism? That the dean has no right to accuse her? That she has incriminating information about the dean? Or someone else?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buzzard (Buzzard)
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Her question was(ish) about a person: Just one person? no A few specific people? yesish A large group of people? noish or yope One or more hypothetical/fictional persons? no Was it about herself? no about the dean? yope or yesish about someone else at her university? nosomeone else who had been accused of plagiarism? yopesomeone else who had plagiarized? yope someone who had had his or her work plagiarized? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dlcygnet (Dlcygnet)
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Posted on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 10:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did she simply forget to cite her source? Was the Dean spouting off something about disappointment/morals and quoted somebody? And she asked "who said that?" and he couldn't remember?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 4:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I believe you missed a couple of Buzzard's questions:Sorry! I've just answered them. See above
Her question was(ish) about a person: Just one person? A few specific people? A large group of people? One or more hypothetical/fictional persons? Was it about herself? about the dean? about someone else at her university? someone else who had been accused of plagiarism? someone else who had plagiarized? someone who had had his or her work plagiarized? See above answers to thos series of questions

Is the subject of the plagarized work relevant? noIs she simply pointing out that the university has a larger problem than plagarism? no That the dean has no right to accuse her? noThat she has incriminating information about the dean? no Or someone else? yope
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 7:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does she believe that by revealing incriminating information about someone else, her own punishment will be lighter? Before she asks her question, is she expecting to be punished? And after? Does the dean already know the other person or people plagiarized?

Which are the most likely outcomes of her question...
Her punishment is lighter
Her punishment is heavier
She isn't punished
Someone else is discovered as a plagiarizer
Someone else's punishment is lighter/heavier/removed
The dean is embarassed/angry/relieved/confused
Changes will be made to the plagiarism policy
An exception will be made to the plagiarism policy
Some kind of change will occur on campus
Something completely different from any of these options

Does it matter whether or not she intended to plagiarize?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Does she believe that by revealing incriminating information about someone else, her own punishment will be lighter? yesish Before she asks her question, is she expecting to be punished? yesAnd after? yes Does the dean already know the other person or people plagiarized? yes

Which are the most likely outcomes of her question...
Her punishment is lighter unlikely
Her punishment is heavier no
She isn't punished VERY unlikely
Someone else is discovered as a plagiarizer no
Someone else's punishment is lighter/heavier/removed no
The dean is embarassed/angry/relieved/confused no
Changes will be made to the plagiarism policy
An exception will be made to the plagiarism policy no
Some kind of change will occur on campus no
Something completely different from any of these options yope

Does it matter whether or not she intended to plagiarize?unlikely
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: Roxanne begins by asking the dean a question that does not mention plagiarism but just sounds like an interesting general question to discuss. Find out what that question is.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have anything to do with ethics? philosophy? school policy? the topic of her or someone else's paper?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 8:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have anything to do with ethics? yope or noish philosophy? noschool policy? no the topic of her or someone else's paper? no
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: the question Roxanne asks the dean is the sort of question people like to discuss at a party (& we might like to discuss on the chatroom after the puzzle is solved).
Bcj (Bcj)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(pretty sure these were ruled out earlier, but...)
"So how'd you catch me?"
"Have you ever plagiarized?"

Does the dean have any children? Is there anyone else in the room?
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If it seemed irrelevant, I assume her question didn't explicitly involve plagiarism, correct? So... cocktail parties. Does it involve politics? Religion? Sports? Education? A hypothetical of some kind? Does she reference any specific people in her question? If so, people they both know? Only she knows? He knows? Nobody knows?Famous people? Fictitious people?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bcj (Bcj)
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(pretty sure these were ruled out earlier, but...)
"So how'd you catch me?" no
"Have you ever plagiarized?" no

Does the dean have any children?
irrel Is there anyone else in the room? maybe other administrators
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 8:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
If it seemed irrelevant, I assume her question didn't explicitly involve plagiarism, correct? yes So... cocktail parties. Does it involve politics? yope Religion? yope Sports? noish Education? yope A hypothetical of some kind? noDoes she reference any specific people in her question?
yope If so, people they both know? no Only she knows? noHe knows? no Nobody knows? noFamous people? yesish Fictitious people? no
Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 7:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why was her question seemingly irrelevant question relevant -- because it related to plagiarism? How she got caught? Other relevant people? Ethics and morality? Confidentiality?

We don't need to know anything about the particular act of plagiarism, correct? Do we need to know how she got caught? Other than the fact that she is brought up on charges of plagiarism, is there a story we need to discover?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
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Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 7:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Why was her question seemingly irrelevant question relevant -- because it related to plagiarism? yesish or yope How she got caught? no Other relevant people? yesEthics and morality? yesishConfidentiality? no

We don't need to know anything about the particular act of plagiarism, correct? yesDo we need to know how she got caught? Other than the fact that she is brought up on charges of plagiarism, is there a story we need to discover? yes
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have absolutely no idea what kind of question could simultaneously yopeishly reference politics, religion, ethics, education and famous people. Must have been a doozy. Did her question contain a name? Or was it more about famous people in general? Like, say, whether they should be held to the same ethical standards as the rest of us?

The relevant backstory... does it deal with how she plagiarized? who/what she plagiarized from? what she was writing when she plagiarized? why she plagiarized? how she was caught? what she did or said after she was caught? How she came to be talking to that particular dean? Something in the dean's past?

How many other relevant people besides Roxanne and the dean... 1? 2? 3? ...? Are they her colleagues/fellow students? superiors? friends? enemies? family members? ex or current love interests/husbands? Does Luciana have any relationship with the dean outside of working with/under him?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 1:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I have absolutely no idea what kind of question could simultaneously yopeishly reference politics, religion, ethics, education and famous people. Must have been a doozy. Did her question contain a name? no Or was it more about famous people in general? yes Like, say, whether they should be held to the same ethical standards as the rest of us? no

The relevant backstory... does it deal with how she plagiarized? who/what she plagiarized from? what she was writing when she plagiarized? why she plagiarized? how she was caught? what she did or said after she was caught? How she came to be talking to that particular dean? Something in the dean's past? none of these!

How many other relevant people besides Roxanne and the dean... 1? 2? 3? ...? one is directly relevant; millions are indirectly relevantAre they her colleagues/fellow students? superiors? friends? enemies? family members? ex or current love interests/husbands? none of those is directly or indirectly relevant Does Luciana have any relationship with the dean outside of working with/under him? no
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is this HER backstory, then? Or some kind of event that she'd heard about?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 11:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
So is this HER backstory, then? no Or some kind of event that she'd heard about? yes
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the other relevant person is someone famous, and her question relates to a story she'd heard about him/her? Is this person male? female? A real person we in the real world have heard of? Does the story involve circumstances in which he/she plagiarized something? If so, was this person punished? Is it morally unambiguous that the person should have been punished? Is he/she still alive at the time that Roxanne asks the question? Is he/she... an actor? a singer? someone famous for being famous (like Paris Hilton)? an academic? a businessperson? someone in politics? military? a leader?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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So the other relevant person is someone famous, and her question relates to a story she'd heard about him/her? yesIs this person male? yes female? no A real person we in the real world have heard of? yes Does the story involve circumstances in which he/she plagiarized something? yes If so, was this person punished? noIs it morally unambiguous that the person should have been punished? I think so Is he/she still alive at the time that Roxanne asks the question? noIs he/she... an actor? no a singer? no someone famous for being famous (like Paris Hilton)? no an academic? no a businessperson? no someone in politics? yope or maybe yesish military? no a leader? yes
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this person alive... BC? Ancient times? Middle ages? 16th century? 17th? 18th? 19th? 20th? only died recently?

Was he a leader of a country? A town/city? A political group? A company? A rebellion? A secret society? A religious order? History's not my best subject... is this someone whose name I would immediately recognize? Was he a leader in [insert LTPF list of continents]? Was he born in the same place he was a leader?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Was this person alive... BC? Ancient times? Middle ages? 16th century? 17th? 18th? 19th? 20th? only died recently? 20th century

Was he a leader of a country? no A town/city? noA political group? yope A company? no A rebellion? yesish A secret society? no A religious order? no History's not my best subject nor mine... is this someone whose name I would immediately recognize? I'd be AMAZED if you did notWas he a leader in [insert LTPF list of continents]? USA Was he born in the same place he was a leader? yes
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Martin Luther King, Jr.? Anyone to do with the civil rights movement? The women's movement? WWI? WWII? The Depression? Environmentalism? Watergate? Gay rights?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Martin Luther King, Jr.? yes. It is well known that Martin Luther King plagiarized his Ph.D thesis, This isn't white racist propaganda; it was discovered at the black studies institute at Stanford. I actually find it very inspiring that the hero of the civil rights movement was a plagiarist, just as I find it inspiring that Oskar Schindler, one of the heroes of the Holocaust, was a womanizer & a drunk.Isn't it nice to know that you don't have to be perfect to do great things? As for the puzzle, remember that Roxanne asked the dean a GENERAL question. So she didn't specifically mention MLK, although she had him in mind. Now all you need to do is guess the general question she asked, which should be easy. Anyone to do with the civil rights movement? see previous answerThe women's movement? noWWI? no WWII? noThe Depression? noEnvironmentalism? no Watergate? no Gay rights? no
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the question she asked clear her of the plagiarism charge? Ben Franklin relevant? an ex-president relevant? Is there a historic document relevant? Did she ask if the historical person had been accused of plagiarism when he/she wrote this historic document?

LOL at ohlala8s comment about someone famous for being famous(like paris hilton)...very true.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
did the question she asked clear her of the plagiarism charge?no Ben Franklin relevant? no an ex-president relevant? no Is there a historic document relevant? no Did she ask if the historical person had been accused of plagiarism when he/she wrote this historic document? no

LOL at ohlala8s comment about someone famous for being famous(like paris hilton)...very true.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 3:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she ask if one poor decision made someone a bad person? Was grounds for exile from the intellectual community? Did she ask something that she could then trap him with by saying "but MLK plagiarized"? Did she ask him if he supported the civil rights movement?
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she, like MLK, plagiarize a thesis? an essay? is it really relevant what she plagiarized? did she say something like "don't great minds think alike?"
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Did she ask if one poor decision made someone a bad person? No, but you're very ORT (on the right track) Was grounds for exile from the intellectual community? ditto Did she ask something that she could then trap him with by saying "but MLK plagiarized"? yesDid she ask him if he supported the civil rights movement? no
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 9:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did she, like MLK, plagiarize a thesis? irrel an essay? dittois it really relevant what she plagiarized? no did she say something like "don't great minds think alike?" no
Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did she ask if he thought everyone that had plagiarized should be punished? And when he responded yes he replied "well you didn't punish MLK" or "MLK was never punished" or something along these lines
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
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Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
did she ask if he thought everyone that had plagiarized should be punished? No, but you're very ORT And when he responded yes he replied "well you didn't punish MLK" or "MLK was never punished" or something along these lines

Well, this is close enough for me to declare a
***** SPOILER ******************
When Roxanne was brought up on charges of plagiarism at the university, she asked the dean, "Whom do you consider the 5 greatest Americans of the 20th century?" Almost anyone nowadays will include Martin Luther King. So Roxanne then points out that MLK plagiarized his Ph.D. thesis & asks whether the dean would have expelled him. Old forum hands may recall a similar puzzle of mine about why The U. of Dallas (a very conservative Catholic school) decided against a policy of expelling any student who had sexual intercourse outside of marriage. One consideration was that some of the greatest saints, such as St. Augustine, would have been expelled. By the way, I think the dean should have told Roxanne that he would have expelled MLK. In fact, I think that MLK's Ph.D. should have been revoked, but of course that his Nobel Peace Prize should not have been. He deserved the Nobel prize but not his Ph.D. Lord Acton said it best, "Great men are usually bad men" By the way, the question of who were the 5 greatest Americans of the 20th century might be interesting to discuss.Here's my list: MLK, FDR, Thomas Edison, Jonas Salk, & Albert Einstein. Of course, you're not all Americans so maybe limiting it to Americans is too parochial for this forum. Here's my tentative worldwide list: Gandhi, Einstein, Salk, Churchill, & Edison. What's yours?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Revision: I think I might replace Churchill with Nelson Mandela on my worldwide list.

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