| Author | Message | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 513 Registered: 6-2003 |
Both options were right, but if she had chosen differently, he might not have died. | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2009 |
Can we call "she" Marie and "he" Paul? Chosen differently= there were two options, Marie chose one, and if Marie had chosen the other, Paul might not have died? Or if she had literally "chosen differently," as in using a different method of selection? Basing her choice on different information? Options= On a test? A written question of some kind? Oral question? Choice of what to do? What to say? Which direction to go? Was Paul given the same choice? Both right= Both had the potential for positive consequences? Both would earn her credit in an examination? Both pointed her right instead of left? Right in the poetic sense that "whatever is, is right"? Marie= HAF? Paul= HAM? Did Marie know Paul? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 514 Registered: 6-2003 |
Can we call "she" Marie and "he" Paul? by all means Chosen differently= there were two options, Marie chose one, and if Marie had chosen the other, Paul might not have died? this one Or if she had literally "chosen differently," as in using a different method of selection? Basing her choice on different information? Options= On a test? A written question of some kind? Oral question? no thus far Choice of what to do? yes What to say? Which direction to go? Was Paul given the same choice? no to rest Both right= Both had the potential for positive consequences? Both would earn her credit in an examination? this is closest Both pointed her right instead of left? Right in the poetic sense that "whatever is, is right"? Marie= HAF? yes Paul= HAM? yes Did Marie know Paul? yes | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2009 |
Okay, so I'm going to call the option she chose A and the option she didn't choose B. If she had chosen B, would someone else have died? Or some other negative consequence that balanced out Paul's death given that she took option A? Was she aware before she made the choice that Paul's death was a possibility? Was she aware of all the possible outcomes of each option? Just to be clear, Paul did die, right? Was there any chance Paul wouldn't die given A? Did she think there was any chance Paul wouldn't die given A? Did she realize there was a chance Paul wouldn't die given B? How long did she have to deliberate about which choice to make? seconds? minutes? an hour? more than an hour? days? weeks? months? years? Was anyone affected by her decision other than Paul? This was in real life, and not a theoretical or simulated situation? Is Sophie's Choice relevant? | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2009 |
Paul know Marie? Other people involved? Did Marie's choice directly cause death? Indirectly cause death? Prevent his life from being saved? If Marie made no choice, would he have died? True story? Could it happen today in the USA? Do Marie or Paul have any limitations or special conditions? Location relevant? Indoors? Outdoors? Death occur after choice was made? Time between choice and death relevant? 1 sec, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade? Cause of death -- natural causes? Accident? Homicide? Cause of death: -impact -bumping his head in the shower after having watched Psycho and the water went cold -electric shock -the other kind of shock -something piercing him -suffocation or asphyxiation -burning -freezing -heart attack -allergies -drowning -explosion -radiation -poison -a psionic death ray -laughing to death -asphyxiation -bleeding -organ failure -other | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 518 Registered: 6-2003 |
Okay, so I'm going to call the option she chose A and the option she didn't choose B. OK If she had chosen B, would someone else have died? no Or some other negative consequence that balanced out Paul's death given that she took option A? nor this Was she aware before she made the choice that Paul's death was a possibility? no Was she aware of all the possible outcomes of each option? no Just to be clear, Paul did die, right? yes, he did Was there any chance Paul wouldn't die given A? yes Did she think there was any chance Paul wouldn't die given A? Did she realize there was a chance Paul wouldn't die given B? neither of these... How long did she have to deliberate about which choice to make? possible FA... seconds? ...but would be this minutes? an hour? more than an hour? days? weeks? months? years? Was anyone affected by her decision other than Paul? This was in real life, and not a theoretical or simulated situation? yes Is Sophie's Choice relevant? no Paul know Marie? yes Other people involved? yes (though, strictly speaking for the purposes of this puzzle, it's not necessary to explore this area) Did Marie's choice directly cause death? no Indirectly cause death? yes Prevent his life from being saved? If Marie made no choice, would he have died? no to both True story? no Could it happen today in the USA? yes Do Marie or Paul have any limitations or special conditions? no Location relevant? not really Indoors? this is more likely, though Outdoors? Death occur after choice was made? yes Time between choice and death relevant? only in relative terms 1 sec, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade? likely to be between 1 hour and 1 day Cause of death -- natural causes? Accident? this one Homicide? Cause of death: -impact -bumping his head in the shower after having watched Psycho and the water went cold ah, that would be too easy :-p -electric shock -the other kind of shock -something piercing him -suffocation or asphyxiation -burning -freezing -heart attack -allergies -drowning -explosion -radiation -poison -a psionic death ray -laughing to death -asphyxiation -bleeding -organ failure -other impact, but the specifics aren't that relevant - something else is, though... | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 289 Registered: 10-2008 |
Does Marie know Paul? Is the exact nature of their relationship relevant? Could we say they are friends? Would the choice between A and B seem trivial to Marie at the time? Would it seem important, but not life-threatening? Or life-threatening, but not with Paul's life? Did both choices seem equally good at the time? Or did A seem a bit better? Was Marie deciding between two locations to go to? Between two purchases? Between two ways of achieving the same end? Between two people in any way? Is the location of Paul's death important? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 519 Registered: 6-2003 |
Does Marie know Paul? yes Is the exact nature of their relationship relevant? yes Could we say they are friends? not really... Would the choice between A and B seem trivial to Marie at the time? yes Would it seem important, but not life-threatening? Or life-threatening, but not with Paul's life? Did both choices seem equally good at the time? yes Or did A seem a bit better? no to the others Was Marie deciding between two locations to go to? Between two purchases? no to both Between two ways of achieving the same end? yesish Between two people in any way? no Is the location of Paul's death important? no, with a very small -ish | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 277 Registered: 3-2009 |
Death was due to some kind of impact, correct? Was the impact due to: - a fall - being hit by a vehicle - being hit while in a vehicle Is this the sequence of events? 1. She makes her choice 2. He experiences the deadly "impact" event 3. He dies Or was he injured prior to her choice? Time between 1 & 3 was between 1 hour and 1 day. What is the time between 1 & 2 (same list of times), and 2 & 3 (same list of times)? I am trying to understand if there is simultaneity between any of the events. When she made her choice, did she know it could affect him? Did it have anything to do with him? | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 295 Registered: 10-2008 |
Are the two co-workers? Family? Boyfriend/girlfriend? Living together? Friend-of-a-friends? Do they dislike each other? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 520 Registered: 6-2003 |
Death was due to some kind of impact, correct? yes Was the impact due to: - a fall - being hit by a vehicle - being hit while in a vehicle pretty much irrelevant, for reasons mentioned above Is this the sequence of events? 1. She makes her choice 2. He experiences the deadly "impact" event 3. He dies yes, but may lead to FAs as currently stands... Or was he injured prior to her choice? no Time between 1 & 3 was between 1 hour and 1 day. What is the time between 1 & 2 (same list of times), and 2 & 3 (same list of times)? I am trying to understand if there is simultaneity between any of the events. 1 & 2 is the same 1 hour and 1 day; 2 & 3 is either seconds or simultaneously When she made her choice, did she know it could affect him? no Did it have anything to do with him? sorry, I don't understand the question Are the two co-workers? Family? Boyfriend/girlfriend? this is closest... Living together? Friend-of-a-friends? Do they dislike each other? ...but none of them are right | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 282 Registered: 3-2009 |
Other than resulting in his death, did her choice have to do with anything that pertained directly to Paul? To ask it a different way -- let's say the choice did not result (or had not yet resulted) in his death. She's describing the choice she made to a friend of hers. Would she likely use Paul's name in describing the choice? Do we need to figure out what kind of impact killed him? Did him impact something? Or did something impact him? Their relationship -- are they man and wife? Do they have a sexual relationship? Is their relationship important to figure out? Would her choice be considered unusual? Would her actions be considered unusual? His actions? Any wordplay or trickiness in the puzzle statement? | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 284 Registered: 3-2009 |
Did "he" impact something? (not, Did him impact something, Kemosabe) | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 521 Registered: 6-2003 |
Other than resulting in his death, did her choice have to do with anything that pertained directly to Paul? yes To ask it a different way -- let's say the choice did not result (or had not yet resulted) in his death. She's describing the choice she made to a friend of hers. Would she likely use Paul's name in describing the choice? yes Do we need to figure out what kind of impact killed him? no Did him impact something? Or did something impact him? Their relationship -- are they man and wife? no Do they have a sexual relationship? yes Is their relationship important to figure out? yes Would her choice be considered unusual? no Would her actions be considered unusual? no His actions? possibly, but it is perhaps understandable Any wordplay or trickiness in the puzzle statement? no | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is he a john? Do they have a more-than-physical relationship? Are they exclusive? Is infidelity involved? Are they not "supposed" to have a sexual relationship (e.g. if they work together, if one of them is a minor, if they're teacher and student) Is whatever caused the "impact" event (like a vehicle, for instance) set into motion by her choice? To put it another way, if she had chosen option B, would the impacter still have been in the same place at the same time? Meaning that the reason he might not have died is not that the cause of death would be removed, but that he would not be there to be impacted? Or if he had been, it wouldn't have been fatal? If she had chosen option B, would Paul have been... In exactly the same place he was given that she chose option A? With Marie? Somewhere else specific? Somewhere else, doesn't matter as long as it wasn't where he was impacted? Was Marie present when Paul died? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 522 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is he a john? no Do they have a more-than-physical relationship? yes Are they exclusive? no Is infidelity involved? yes Are they not "supposed" to have a sexual relationship (e.g. if they work together, if one of them is a minor, if they're teacher and student) not any of the examples you gave; difficult to answer otherwise...does the "infidelity involved" (see above) answer this question sufficiently Is whatever caused the "impact" event (like a vehicle, for instance) set into motion by her choice? no To put it another way, if she had chosen option B, would the impacter still have been in the same place at the same time? difficult to answer - the impacter per se isn't important. Hint: the victim's mindset is more relevant and useful as a route of investigation Meaning that the reason he might not have died is not that the cause of death would be removed, but that he would not be there to be impacted? yes Or if he had been, it wouldn't have been fatal? so no If she had chosen option B, would Paul have been... In exactly the same place he was given that she chose option A? yope With Marie? no Somewhere else specific? no Somewhere else, doesn't matter as long as it wasn't where he was impacted? yope Was Marie present when Paul died? no | ||
| Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
New member Username: Sugarshane Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2009 |
did paul commit suicide? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 523 Registered: 6-2003 |
did paul commit suicide? yes | ||
| Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
New member Username: Sugarshane Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2009 |
This is from a previous post...Cause of death natural causes? Accident? this one Homicide? <---end previous post. you said the cause of death was accidental? so was it accidental? or a suicide? or an accidental suicide? is that on oxymoron? wouldn't an accidental suicide just be an accident? i'm a little confused??? anyway....she chose another man so he killed himself? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 525 Registered: 6-2003 |
This is from a previous post...Cause of death natural causes? Accident? this one Homicide? ---end previous post. you said the cause of death was accidental? so was it accidental? or a suicide? or an accidental suicide? is that on oxymoron? wouldn't an accidental suicide just be an accident? i'm a little confused??? ah, sorry about that. Put together, "reckless" would be a better word than "accidental": Paul goes off, after the as yet unknown incident, with reckless abandon and ends up (unintentionally) killing himself. Hope that clears it up :-) anyway....she chose another man no so he killed himself? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 150 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is Marie married? Seriously involved with someone else? Is Paul married? Seriously involved with someone else? Are they in a primary relationship with each other, and one or both of them is cheating? So as I understand it, the choice she makes basically bums Paul out and then he dies? Did her decision break off their relationship? Negatively impact it in some way? Was the decision to cheat? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 527 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is Marie married? yes Seriously involved with someone else? yes Is Paul married? no Seriously involved with someone else? Are they in a primary relationship with each other, and one or both of them is cheating? no to both So as I understand it, the choice she makes basically bums Paul out yope/yesish, beware FA and then he dies? Did her decision break off their relationship? Negatively impact it in some way? Was the decision to cheat? no to these three | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 155 Registered: 6-2009 |
Alright, so Marie is cheating on her husband with Paul? Does her husband know? Does he find out around the time that Marie makes her choice? Are they afraid he'll find out? Does Joe want Marie to reveal their forbidden love? Does Marie want to? Is there something (aside from reluctance on one or both of their parts) keeping them from telling him? Is Marie's decision related to a rendezvous with Paul? Does Marie's decision lead Paul to believe that she is breaking it off with him? That her husband has discovered them? That she has told her husband? That she will leave her husband for him? That she is pregnant (with his child? with her husband's child?) Are any of these correct, whether or not Paul knows or believes them? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 529 Registered: 6-2003 |
I've just realised that "cheating" may not be the best way to describe it, thus leading to a crucial FA throughout those questions; also, that the specifics of this liaison aren't important per se for the puzzle, so I'll say. Marie and her husband are in a breaking-up marriage, and Marie has since found and fallen in love with Paul. The "big question" that surrounds the relationships is whether the husband will agree to a quick divorce. | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 185 Registered: 6-2009 |
So did Paul go off and die because he thought that Marie's husband wouldn't agree to the divorce? Was he right? Was Marie's choice something that gave him this impression? That led her husband not to agree to the divorce? Did Marie want the divorce? Did Paul? | ||
| Sugarshane (Sugarshane)
New member Username: Sugarshane Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2009 |
does paul misinterpret something Marie says? does paul THINK that marie is not getting divorced? marie doesn't want to be with him? Does the husband agree to the divorce and paul or marie somehow misinterprets his intentions? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 531 Registered: 6-2003 |
So did Paul go off and die because he thought that Marie's husband wouldn't agree to the divorce? yes Was he right? no Was Marie's choice something that gave him this impression? noish/yope That led her husband not to agree to the divorce? no Did Marie want the divorce? Did Paul? yes to both does paul misinterpret something Marie says? noish does paul THINK that marie is not getting divorced? yes, as above marie doesn't want to be with him? no Does the husband agree to the divorce and paul or marie somehow misinterprets his intentions? yes | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 198 Registered: 6-2009 |
Did Marie know that her husband had agreed to the divorce, and intend to immediately communicate this to Paul? Does her decision have to do with the method of communication? The timing? The phrasing? Does "both options were right" refer to grammatical correctness? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 532 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did Marie know that her husband had agreed to the divorce, and intend to immediately communicate this to Paul? yes Does her decision have to do with the method of communication? no The timing? no The phrasing? yes Does "both options were right" refer to grammatical correctness? yes | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 212 Registered: 6-2009 |
So there was some kind of phrasing that led to Paul misreading the meaning as its opposite? Does it involve the placement of punctuation? An alternate spelling of a word? Word order? Synonyms? Abbreviations? Is this communication handwritten? A letter? Postcard? Or an email? IM? Text? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 536 Registered: 6-2003 |
So there was some kind of phrasing that led to Paul misreading the meaning as its opposite? noish Does it involve the placement of punctuation? yes... An alternate spelling of a word? ...this too Word order? Synonyms? Abbreviations? none of these Is this communication handwritten? A letter? Postcard? could easily be any of these Or an email? less likely to be this IM? no Text? not very likely | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 219 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is the relevant punctuation a . , ! ; : " ' ( ) & / - ? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 540 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the relevant punctuation a . , ! ; : " ' ( ) & / - this one ? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 223 Registered: 6-2009 |
just to be clear, we're talking about a hyphen and not a dash, right? So is there a word that can either be hyphenated or one word? But since it was hyphenated, he read it as two separate words? Giving it a different meaning? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 543 Registered: 6-2003 |
just to be clear, we're talking about a hyphen and not a dash, right? correct So is there a word that can either be hyphenated or one word? not quite But since it was hyphenated, he read it as two separate words? Giving it a different meaning? same FA with these questions as with the 'not quite' question | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 227 Registered: 6-2009 |
It can either be hyphenated or two words? Did she choose to hyphenate it? To make it two words? To make it one word? When he read it, did he interpret it as if it was hyphenated? two words? one word? Some other, similar word? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 546 Registered: 6-2003 |
It can either be hyphenated or two words? correct Did she choose to hyphenate it? no To make it two words? yes To make it one word? When he read it, did he interpret it as if it was hyphenated? two words? yesish one word? Some other, similar word? | ||
| John_w (John_w)
New member Username: John_w Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2009 |
Were there both a punctuation and a spelling mistake? How did he misinterpret the message? She did not love him enough? Her husband refused? She did not want to anymore? There was someone els? Is the word a noun? verb? adjective? Adverb? Proper noun? Abstract noun? Common noun? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 547 Registered: 6-2003 |
Were there both a punctuation and a spelling mistake? it wasn't a mistake - both options were equally valid... otherwise, yes insofar as a decision about whether to hyphenate a word is both a decision about punctuation and spelling How did he misinterpret the message? She did not love him enough? Her husband refused? this one She did not want to anymore? There was someone else? Is the word a noun? verb? adjective? Adverb? Proper noun? Abstract noun? Common noun? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 548 Registered: 6-2003 |
Oops, forgot to answer this: Is the word a noun? this, insofar as it is also... verb? adjective? Adverb? Proper noun? ...this Abstract noun? Common noun? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 247 Registered: 6-2009 |
Is it a name? a place? an object named after someone? If it is a name, is it her name? her husband's? Paul's? a last name? a first name? a middle name? a maiden name? a nickname? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 551 Registered: 6-2003 |
Sorry, grammar fail on my part. Though it is a noun, it's not a proper noun, contrary to what I first thought. As such, the answer to your questions is no. Oops :-( | ||
| John_w (John_w)
New member Username: John_w Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2009 |
In that case is it an abstract noun(Like love/faith/power)? common noun? pro noun? Collective noun? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 554 Registered: 6-2003 |
In that case is it an abstract noun(Like love/faith/power)? common noun? pro noun? this one Collective noun? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 286 Registered: 6-2009 |
I'm struggling to come up with two-word pronouns... "no one" versus "no-one," maybe? "each other"? "one another"? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 555 Registered: 6-2003 |
I'm struggling to come up with two-word pronouns... "no one" versus "no-one," maybe? that's the one! "each other"? "one another"? | ||
| Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
New member Username: Ohlala8 Post Number: 291 Registered: 6-2009 |
Okay, this is beginning to sound eerily like yabblesmacker's recent puzzle "a tad melodramatic." Is this the same story? Or at least a similar sentence, i.e. "He said no one would have to suffer much longer"? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 556 Registered: 6-2003 |
Exactly! **** SPOILER **** Not only does it sound like yabblesmacker's puzzle, it essentially is :-) The main reason I didn't take part in that puzzle myself is that, Jonathan Creek being one of my favourite shows, I got the answer from the beginning. So I waited a little while, a couple of weeks after that spoiler was posted and the puzzle moved, before approaching the story from a different angle :-) For those who didn't see the first puzzle, the husband has agreed to the divorce, and Marie faxes Paul with the good news (well, Jonathan Creek has a fax, anything similar would still work). Unfortunately, a fly falls onto the paper before Paul reads it. Thus, "he said no one would have to suffer" reads as "he said no, one would have to suffer". Paul, angry, goes on an alcohol-fuelled binge and ends up killing himself. And being reminded of that story by yabblesmacker's puzzle, I could only think: I spell "no one" with a hyphen: "no-one". If Marie had chosen that option, would a fly have made that much of a difference? The hyphen would make it clear that "no-one" isn't meant to be two separate words. And Paul probably wouldn't have reacted the way he did. Hence, the puzzle was born. Now it's been solved, can I ask that y'all direct your sharp eyes to my other puzzle, "A Straightforward Scrund"? Thanks :-) |
