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Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I heard that John is urging a no vote in the upcoming Irish referendum on the Lisbon Treaty I was surprised . However on hearing his reasoning it made perfect sense.

Please explain.


I'm betting this will be quick.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quorum relevant?

Is John for the Treaty? Against?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quorum relevant? no

Is John for the Treaty? Against? ahem..Neither
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting...

Does John believe: "If you don't know [enough about the Treaty], vote no"?

Were you surprised: because he's not Irish (or European?), so might not be expected to care? Because he doesn't care much about politics usually? Because he's an anarchist?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting... we'll see

Does John believe: "If you don't know [enough about the Treaty], vote no"? No

Were you surprised: because he's not Irish (or European?), so might not be expected to care? no Because he doesn't care much about politics usually? yes Because he's an anarchist? no
Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it work for any and all referendums if they were substituted in this puzzle for the referendum Lisbon Treaty? Is the referendum on Lisbon Treaty the only referendum this puzzle would work for? Would it work if it were a local referendum to expand the high school? If it were a national referendum to change the Constitution?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it work for any and all referendums if they were substituted in this puzzle for the referendum Lisbon Treaty? Yes (Isn't it nice that referendums is an acceptable plural:o)) Is the referendum on Lisbon Treaty the only referendum this puzzle would work for? no Would it work if it were a local referendum to expand the high school? No If it were a national referendum to change the Constitution? yes
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Monday, September 07, 2009 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So does he have particularly relevant views against changing the Constitution in any circumstance? About the current Irish government? Irish governments in general? The influence of other nations on Ireland?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So does he have particularly relevant views against changing the Constitution in any circumstance? About the current Irish government? Irish governments in general? The influence of other nations on Ireland? No to all
Bentarm (Bentarm)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is John urging people to vote no?
Or urging them not to vote?
Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 08, 2009 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait.... if it would work for any and all referendums, then how could it not work for a local referendum to expand the high school?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is John urging people to vote no? this
Or urging them not to vote? So no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait.... if it would work for any and all referendums, then how could it not work for a local referendum to expand the high school? In Ireland we don't have such referendums so I doubt that it would arise
Ferrets101 (Ferrets101)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, would it work for such a referendum in the United States? (where I know we have them, because there was one such referendum at my high school two months ago or so)? Would it work for any referendum at all in the United States? What about in England?
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it correct to say that John would advocate a no vote, in principle, in any referendum? Would advocate just voting in any referendum, regardless of whether one votes yes or no?

If there was a "neither of the above" option in the referendum (which might, perhaps, kick the issue back to the government / EU for re-consideration), would John instead advocate voting that way? And voting no is simply the best way under the current system of achieving the same thing?

Is it something to do with the nature of referendums? Of the democratic process?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, would it work for such a referendum in the United States? I don't think so but am not sure (where I know we have them, because there was one such referendum at my high school two months ago or so)? Would it work for any referendum at all in the United States? as above sorry What about in England again i don't know. To the best of my knowledge referendums in the UK are very rare indeed
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 09, 2009 - 9:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it correct to say that John would advocate a no vote, in principle, in any referendum? yes but be careful Would advocate just voting in any referendum, regardless of whether one votes yes or no? no

If there was a "neither of the above" option in the referendum (which might, perhaps, kick the issue back to the government / EU for re-consideration), would John instead advocate voting that way? yes he probably would And voting no is simply the best way under the current system of achieving the same thing? yes

Is it something to do with the nature of referendums? no but maybe you should define what you mean by the nature of... Of the democratic process? The nature of Ireland's democratic process of late is relevant
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the nature of referendums, I meant something along the lines of: does John believe, in principle, that they shouldn't happen? That instead, elected Parliamentarians should vote on the matter?

Is it relevant that the upcoming referendum will be the second attempt to secure a yes vote from Ireland? That the content of the "Irish Guarantees" constitute a change between what was voted on the first time and what will be voted on the second time? That, when it was the EU Constitution, the French and Dutch populations weren't asked to vote a second time?

Did John vote no on the first EU referendum last year? (Or, if you don't know, do you think he probably did?) Would he also have voted no on the other referendums that allowed the ratification of EU treaties? (Amsterdam, Maastricht etc.) Generally, on the other referendums that proposed alterations to the Irish constitution?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the nature of referendums, I meant something along the lines of: does John believe, in principle, that they shouldn't happen? no That instead, elected Parliamentarians should vote on the matter? no

Is it relevant that the upcoming referendum will be the second attempt to secure a yes vote from Ireland? yes That the content of the "Irish Guarantees" constitute a change between what was voted on the first time and what will be voted on the second time? but no to this That, when it was the EU Constitution, the French and Dutch populations weren't asked to vote a second time? no

Did John vote no on the first EU referendum last year? no(Or, if you don't know, do you think he probably did?) Would he also have voted no on the other referendums that allowed the ratification of EU treaties? no(Amsterdam, Maastricht etc.) Generally, on the other referendums that proposed alterations to the Irish constitution? no
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So would John characterise the second referendum as an attempt to bully Ireland into voting yes? And that the voters shouldn't yield to the pressure? Leading to his belief that voters should vote no if they voted no before, and/or vote no anyway just to spite the Government / the EU?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So would John characterise the second referendum as an attempt to bully Ireland into voting yes? No And that the voters shouldn't yield to the pressure? no Leading to his belief that voters should vote no if they voted no before, and/or vote no anyway just to spite the Government / the EU? no that's not his motivation

OK I've let this go for too long without telling you that there's a major FA going on
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will John be allowed to vote in the referendum himself? If so, will he probably vote "no"?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will John be allowed to vote in the referendum himself? No If so, will he probably vote "no"?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will John not be allowed to vote because
- he is not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland (or any country whose citizens may be allowed to vote)?
- he does not live in the Republic of Ireland (or any place from where people may be allowed to vote)?
- he is too young to vote?
- he is not a human at all?
- he lost his voting right due to a criminal conviction?
- he didn't register as a voter or failed to complete another formality necessary for voters?
- he is legally incapacitated (e.g. because of a mental disorder)?
- there is some other legal restriction on who is allowed to vote, and this restriction apllies to him?
- the voting authorities erroneously or illegaly didn't put him in the electoral register, didn't send him a polling card etc. and he somehow can't get them to fix the problem?
- he lost or destroyed his polling card etc. and won't get another one?
- he already cast an invalid absentee/early vote?
- he already cast an absentee/early vote, and this vote got lost or destroyed?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Will John not be allowed to vote because
- he is not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland (or any country whose citizens may be allowed to vote)?
- he does not live in the Republic of Ireland (or any place from where people may be allowed to vote)?
- he is too young to vote? this
- he is not a human at all?
- he lost his voting right due to a criminal conviction?
- he didn't register as a voter or failed to complete another formality necessary for voters?
- he is legally incapacitated (e.g. because of a mental disorder)?
- there is some other legal restriction on who is allowed to vote, and this restriction apllies to him?
- the voting authorities erroneously or illegaly didn't put him in the electoral register, didn't send him a polling card etc. and he somehow can't get them to fix the problem?
- he lost or destroyed his polling card etc. and won't get another one?
- he already cast an invalid absentee/early vote?
- he already cast an absentee/early vote, and this vote got lost or destroyed?

excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election And the result? It is the most simple reason you can imagine...

Would John also be urging a no vote if he was old enough to vote? If people of his age were allowed to vote? If there were no age restrictions on voting at all?

An idea: Does he want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty and hopes there will be a third vote in case it is rejected now?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

excellent LTPF list of reasons one can't vote in an election And the result? It is the most simple reason you can imagine... I wanted to see how long i could let this go before someone thought to ask whether John was H?A?M? A nice demonstration of the danger of assumption


Would John also be urging a no vote if he was old enough to vote? He might but not for the reason that he is now If people of his age were allowed to vote? yes If there were no age restrictions on voting at all? yes

An idea: Does he want to vote on the Lisbon Treaty and hopes there will be a third vote in case it is rejected now? No but something in this question is very relevant
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a future election in which he will be old enough to vote relevant?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a future election in which he will be old enough to vote relevant? no
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So his age is relevant for reasons other than his inability to vote?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So his age is relevant for reasons other than his inability to vote? Yes. As this has gone a little cold and the referendum is tomorrow i'll give you some assistance. John is 9 years old
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he was born in 2000? relevant?
Did he also urge a no vote in the first referendum? did he benefit in some way from the result of the first referendum? and expects that he might benefit in the same way if the second referendum also ends with "No"?
Does he urge specific people to vote no? his parents? his relatives?
Does he think no voters might benefit in some way? that he might benefit if his parents vote no? (even if the referendum as such succeeds)
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he was born in 2000? yes relevant? not especially . What is relevant is that John is a child
Did he also urge a no vote in the first referendum? No. It's likely he wouldn't know about the benefit of a No vote then did he benefit in some way from the result of the first referendum? yes and expects that he might benefit in the same way if the second referendum also ends with "No"? yes
Does he urge specific people to vote no? his parents? this one his relatives? and probably this as well
Does he think no voters might benefit in some way? definately not that he might benefit if his parents vote no? (even if the referendum as such succeeds)No the referendum would have to be defeated for the benefit to have a chance of being realised.

I'd like this killed off by polling day tomorrow so I'll throw in another hint. Can you list some things a child might hope for
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he hoping to get a day off school?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he hoping someone will give him sweets? Toys?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, October 01, 2009 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he hoping to get a day off school? yes

************Spoiler*************

Well Done Noel

In Ireland when we go to the polls in an election or referendum the polling stations are local schools so the kids get a day off school for any election. John has noticed the Irish Government's recent trend of holding a second referendum when EU treaties are rejected by the electorate so naturally he is hoping Lisbon get's defeated again so he'll stand a good chance of another day off sometime in the future. It's certainly the most logical arguement for a NO vote that i've heard so far

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