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Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 427
Registered: 8-2009
Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One company sued another company. Neither the named plaintiff nor the named defendant were at all interested in pursuing the case, for very good reasons. What were the reasons? And what is going on here?
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 527
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they settle out of court? Was the case dropped? Did the trial actually happen?

Did either party originally want to pursue the case? Did anyone change their mind?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 429
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they settle out of court? No Was the case dropped? No Did the trial actually happen? Yes

Did either party originally want to pursue the case? No Did anyone change their mind? No
Noel (Noel)
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Post Number: 531
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of the parties a government organization?
Was the suing party legally bound to pursue a lawsuit?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 430
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was one of the parties a government organization? no
Was the suing party legally bound to pursue a lawsuit? no
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 566
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the planitiff and defendant's reasons the same? Were the defendant's reasons for not wanting the case to happen just the usual, i.e., fear of losing, cost of lawyers, public scandal, etc? Or did the defendant have even more at stake?

Did the plaintiff have to sue to keep up a facade? To prevent illegal activity from being discovered? To follow their own professed ethics/values? To prevent public embarrassment? To keep from being sued themselves?

Does it matter what kind of company the plaintiff is? The defendant?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 431
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the planitiff and defendant's reasons the same? Almost exactly the same
Were the defendant's reasons for not wanting the case to happen just the usual, i.e., fear of losing, cost of lawyers, public scandal, etc? They may have contributed, but there's an overriding reason
Or did the defendant have even more at stake? Yope

Did the plaintiff have to sue to keep up a facade? No, and sort of a FA
To prevent illegal activity from being discovered? No
To follow their own professed ethics/values? No
To prevent public embarrassment? No
To keep from being sued themselves? Ha, No (Sorry, don't mean to laugh, you'll see why later...)

Does it matter what kind of company the plaintiff is? Yes
The defendant? Yes
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 567
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the plaintiff doesn't technically have to sue? Is it simply expected of them, so they do it? Or did a third party initiate the suit, although the company wouldn't necessarily have done so? Did certain members of the company want to sue and did so, although the majority don't want to? Are they part of a larger class-action lawsuit?

Are the two comapanies both owned by the same people?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 432
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, the plaintiff doesn't technically have to sue? right
Is it simply expected of them, so they do it? no
Or did a third party initiate the suit, although the company wouldn't necessarily have done so? this is close, but not technically accruate

Did certain members of the company want to sue and did so, although the majority don't want to? this is also very close

Are they part of a larger class-action lawsuit? no

Are the two comapanies both owned by the same people? No, but OTRT
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 245
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 12:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are insurance companies relevant?

Could the plaintiff theoretically be a party in any lawsuit? The defendant?

Does the lawsuit take place in a common law country? England? The US? Ireland? Canada? Some other former British colony? Or in continental Europe? Japan? China? An islamic country?

Does the plaintiff demand the payment of money? The delivery of some other thing? An information? Another action of the defendant? That the defendant refrains from doing something?

Labour law relevant? Administrative law? Intellectual property? Taxes?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 433
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are insurance companies relevant? No

Could the plaintiff theoretically be a party in any lawsuit? Not sure what you mean; I suppose arguably anyone could end up in various kinds of litigation. But this particular person, and only someone like this person, would mainly tend to be involved in this type of lawsuit. The defendant? same answer

Does the lawsuit take place in a common law country? England? The US? This Ireland? Canada? Some other former British colony? Or in continental Europe? Japan? China? An islamic country? no to rest, obviously

Does the plaintiff demand the payment of money? yes, but beware of FAs The delivery of some other thing? An information? Another action of the defendant? That the defendant refrains from doing something? No to rest

Labour law relevant? Administrative law? Intellectual property? this Taxes?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 251
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not sure what you mean I thought of institutions like town councils which (in some countries) usually can't be party in a lawsuit (the town itself would be party), but there are certain kinds of "internal" disputes (e.g. between the council and the mayor) where they can.

Does the plaintiff demand to be paid himself? That someone else is paid? That the defendant accepts a payment the plaintiff (or someone else?) is ready to make?

Intellectual property: Copyright? Patents? Trademarks? Trade secrets? Is the notion of "defending" an intellectual property right relevant?

Could everyone (assuming he is rich enough) legally found a company like the plaintiff? Would one need some special permission/privilege? Would it make sense for a single person or family to found such a company (counter-example: a performing rights society needs lots of members to make sense)?

Is the plaintiff's main business the management of intellectual property rights? The defendant's?

Are any persons or entities besides the plaintiff, the defendant and the court relevant?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 436
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought of institutions like town councils which (in some countries) usually can't be party in a lawsuit (the town itself would be party), but there are certain kinds of "internal" disputes (e.g. between the council and the mayor) where they can. No, nothing quite like this. The phrasing in the puzzle statement is fairly specific, for a reason.

Does the plaintiff demand to be paid himself? Noish That someone else is paid? Noish That the defendant accepts a payment the plaintiff (or someone else?) is ready to make? No

Intellectual property: Copyright? this Patents? Trademarks? Trade secrets? Is the notion of "defending" an intellectual property right relevant? yes

Could everyone (assuming he is rich enough) legally found a company like the plaintiff? yes Would one need some special permission/privilege? no Would it make sense for a single person or family to found such a company (counter-example: a performing rights society needs lots of members to make sense)? not sure if it "makes sense" but it would be plausible

Is the plaintiff's main business the management of intellectual property rights? The defendant's? Now you are onto something. Yes, with a bit of "ope"

Are any persons or entities besides the plaintiff, the defendant and the court relevant? Yes
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 252
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So does the plaintiff sue to defend a copyright? If he wouldn't sue, would he risk losing it? Or risk difficulties in enforcing it against others?

Could everyone (assuming he is rich enough) legally found a company like the defendant? Would one need some special permission/privilege? Would it make sense/be plausible for a single person or family to found such a company?

Does the plaintiff assert he owns a certain copyright? A licence to a copyright?

Does the defendant assert he owns a certain copyright? A licence to a copyright?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 437
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So does the plaintiff sue to defend a copyright? Yes, with a slight "ope" - this answer may come up a lot, for a specific reason If he wouldn't sue, would he risk losing it? Interestingly - no Or risk difficulties in enforcing it against others? no

Does the plaintiff assert he owns a certain copyright? Yes, with a slight "ope" A licence to a copyright? Not sure of the distinction; same answer as above either way

Does the defendant assert he owns a certain copyright? Yes, with a slight "ope" A licence to a copyright? same
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a third party involved without which/whom the plaintiff would not have sued the defendant?

The copyright involved: does it relate to a book? Movie? Song? Piece of music?

Would you say the plaintiff sued the defendant willingly, or did it feel it was somehow forced to?

If no lawsuit took place, would the plaintiff lose something? Gain something?

Same questions for the defendant.

Same question for the third party (if any).
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 253
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The plaintiff is a company. So, somebody owns (the equity of) the company? Is there one single owner? 2 owners? 3? 4 to 10? 11 to 50? 50 to 500? More? Are shares of the company traded on a stock exchange? Could the company be listed without changing its legal form? Would it be plausible for a company with the defendant's business to be listed?

The defendant is a company. So, somebody owns (the equity of) the company? Is there one single owner? 2 owners? 3? 4 to 10? 11 to 50? 50 to 500? More? Are shares of the company traded on a stock exchange? Could the company be listed without changing its legal form? Would it be plausible for a company with the plaintiff's business to be listed?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 438
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great questions, Alhucema! (Not that the ones that led up to it weren't great...)

Is there a third party involved without which/whom the plaintiff would not have sued the defendant? Yes

The copyright involved: does it relate to a book? Movie? Song? This Piece of music? well, song, so...

Would you say the plaintiff sued the defendant willingly definitely not , or did it feel it was somehow forced to? definitely so

If no lawsuit took place, would the plaintiff lose something? Not materially Gain something? same

Same questions for the defendant. same as plaintiff

Same question for the third party (if any). ...lose something? possibly Gain something? very possibly
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Matt! :-))

Is there only one third party?

Is the third party an individual? A company?

Is the lawsuit about the authorship of the song?

Did the third party force the plaintiff to sue?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 440
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there only one third party? only one of consequence

Is the third party an individual? yes A company? this technically, but really an individual

Is the lawsuit about the authorship of the song? definitely

Did the third party force the plaintiff to sue? this is probably the best way to say it, although it's still not quite techinally accurate

My hedging will all make sense when it's solved (I hope). It really is a very interesting - and real - case.
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the third party (can we call the individual Steve?) claim to be the author of the song? Did Steve sell the copyright of a song (or a corresponding licence) to the plaintiff? To the defendant?

Oh, and you didn't answer my questions above.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the third party H?A?M? Relevant?

Can we call the third party Sam?

Is Sam the author of the song?

Is there only one relevant song? Various versions of the same song
Gourami (Gourami)
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Post Number: 572
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the plaintiff suing so that the third party could not gain rights to the song? Was the third party closely associated with the defendant's company? With the plaintiff's?

Is the genre of song or specific song relevant (obviously, since it's a true story there is a specific song, but could it theoretically work with any one)? Is it "White Christmas"? Any of the Beatles' songs?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 441
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, Markobr, didn't see them! (Must have popped up while I was answering...)

The plaintiff is a company. This is not entirely accurate; yes a company is bringing the lawsuit, but there is a named plaintiff
So, somebody owns (the equity of) the company? Is there one single owner? Yes - to be honest, I'm not sure, and it doesn't really matter, but for the sake of argument let's go with one owner. say 2 owners? 3? 4 to 10? 11 to 50? 50 to 500? More? \b)no to rest)

Are shares of the company traded on a stock exchange? Could the company be listed without changing its legal form? Would it be plausible for a company with the defendant's business to be listed? probably yes to all, but largely irrelevant

The defendant is a company. Same caveat - yes a company is being sued, but there is a named defendant
So, somebody owns (the equity of) the company? Is there one single owner? 2 owners? 3? 4 to 10? 11 to 50? 50 to 500? More? not sure; irrelevant
Are shares of the company traded on a stock exchange? Could the company be listed without changing its legal form? Would it be plausible for a company with the plaintiff's business to be listed? probably yes to all, but largely irrelevant
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the third party (can we call the individual Steve?) claim to be the author of the song? no Did Steve sell the copyright of a song (or a corresponding licence) to the plaintiff? no To the defendant? no
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the third party H?A?M? yes yes yes Relevant? inasmuch as this is a real event, yes

Can we call the third party Sam? Sam or Steve? I'm game for either

Is Sam the author of the song? no

Is there only one relevant song? no Various versions of the same song some may claim this is debatable I suppose, but no
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the plaintiff suing so that the third party could not gain rights to the song? no Was the third party closely associated with the defendant's company? no - but with an ish With the plaintiff's? YES!

Is the genre of song or specific song relevant (obviously, since it's a true story there is a specific song, but could it theoretically work with any one)? the circumstances are indeed very specific; but I suppose it's possible that these unusual circumstances could happen in almost any genre
Is it "White Christmas"? no
Any of the Beatles' songs? no
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve is OK with me, as Markobr was by one minute quicker :-))

Is Steve the heir of the copyright?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Steve the heir of the copyright? heir? meaning he inherited it? no
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Steve expect to gain anything because of the lawsuit? If so, money? A copyright (or licence to a copyright)? Other rights? Tangible goods? Reputation?

Is Steve (or, if applicable, his company) an owner of the plaintiff company? An employee? A director? A contractor? A customer?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Steve write the song? Originally perform it?

Is the plaintiff suing because Steve wants the rights? Or because Steve wants them to have the rights? Did he ask them to initiate the suit?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Steve expect to gain anything because of the lawsuit? If so, money? A copyright (or licence to a copyright)? yes to those Other rights? Tangible goods? Reputation? perhaps these too - but mostly the former

Is Steve (or, if applicable, his company no) an owner of the plaintiff company? Yes, this An employee? A director? A contractor? A customer?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Steve write the song? no Originally perform it? no

Is the plaintiff suing because Steve wants the rights? yope
Or because Steve wants them to have the rights? no
Did he ask them to initiate the suit? more than that
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve is an owner of the plaintiff company. The third party is, technically, also a company (but really Steve). Is the plaintiff company identical with the technical third-party company?

Does Steve want a certain individual or company to gain or get adjudicated the rights in the song?

As for the named plaintiff - is he an individual? Is the named defendant an individual?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve is an owner of the plaintiff company. The third party is, technically, also a company (but really Steve). Is the plaintiff company identical with the technical third-party company? Yes. For the sake of clarity - sorry, it's a tricky situation - "Steve" is the owner of the plaintiff company; yet the plaintiff is the, well, named plaintiff in the suit.

Does Steve want a certain individual or company to gain or get adjudicated the rights in the song? Yes - his own company

As for the named plaintiff - is he an individual? Yes!
Is the named defendant an individual? Yes!
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the named plaintiff different from Steve?
Is the named defendant different from Steve?
Is at least the named plaintiff different from the named defendant? ;-)

Are there any individuals, legal entities, organizations or institutions relevant besides Steve, Steve's company, the named plaintiff, the named defendant, the company associated with the named defendant, the court, and any lawyers involved in the lawsuit?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the named plaintiff different from Steve? Yes
Is the named defendant different from Steve? Yes
Is at least the named plaintiff different from the named defendant? ;-) NO!

Are there any individuals, legal entities, organizations or institutions relevant besides Steve, Steve's company, the named plaintiff, the named defendant, the company associated with the named defendant, the court, and any lawyers involved in the lawsuit? No, you have all the major players, just have to sort them out and figure out what's going on...
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we have an individual (maybe we shouldn't call her Sue, so let's call her Claudia) who is the named plaintiff as well as the named defendant in tha lawsuit.

Is Claudia a director of Steve's company? Another employee? A contractor?

Is Claudia a director of the other relevant company? Another employee? A contractor?

Is Claudia the/an author of the song? Does she personally (not on behalf of one of the companies) assert any right relevant for the lawsuit?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we have an individual (maybe we shouldn't call her Sue, so let's call her Claudia) who is the named plaintiff as well as the named defendant in tha lawsuit. okay

Is Claudia a director of Steve's company? noAnother employee? not anymore A contractor? no

Is Claudia a director of the other relevant company? no Another employee? yes A contractor? no

Is Claudia the/an author of the song? Yes! Remember though, there's more than one song involved... Does she personally (not on behalf of one of the companies) assert any right relevant for the lawsuit? no
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Claudia a former employee of Steve's company?

Are Claudia's and Steve's relations strictly on the arms length basis? Or rather personal? Are they lovers? Husband and wife? Relatives?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to make sure: Steve owns the plaintiff company; however, the named plaintiff is Claudia.

Claudia is an employee of the defendant company? And the named defendant as well?

Now that's getting really tricky, isn't it?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Claudia a former employee of Steve's company? yes

Are Claudia's and Steve's relations strictly on the arms length basis? yes Or rather personal? Are they lovers? Husband and wife? Relatives? um, in the real story Claudia is a man! I was just going with the name since at that stage it doesn't matter much... anyway, no to all but the first
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1079
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, it's a pity that we did not stick to the name Sue - apart from other connotations, it would be nice to have a Boy Named Sue :-))
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to make sure: Steve owns the plaintiff company; however, the named plaintiff is Claudia. correct

Claudia is an employee of the defendant company? And the named defendant as well? correct
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1081
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the Boy Named Claudia is suing himself?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 454
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the Boy Named Claudia is suing himself? this is the practical upshot, yes. Told you the circumstances were weird. Still all true.
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the lawsuit about whether one song is derived from another song?

Did Steve threaten Claudia with some other kind of legal action to make her file the lawsuit?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 456
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the lawsuit about whether one song is derived from another song? yes

Did Steve threaten Claudia with some other kind of legal action to make her file the lawsuit? no. essentially Claudia didn't file the lawsuit, Steve's company did; but Claudia was named
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1082
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Claudia agree with the lawsuit at all?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 457
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Claudia agree with the lawsuit at all? no, that was pretty much stated in the puzzle statement
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1084
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Claudia against the lawsuit? Or just indifferent?

Does Steve operate with the fact that Claudia was employed by his company when the song was composed? And therefore the copyright belongs to his company?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 458
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Claudia against the lawsuit? this Or just indifferent?

Does Steve operate with the fact that Claudia was employed by his company when the song was composed? correct And therefore the copyright belongs to his company? correct
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1085
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK. So Steve sues the company which employs Claudia at present over the copyright for a song Claudia composed when (s)he was an employee of Steve's company. He somehow uses Claudia's name as the damaged party.

Are there any more facts for us to establish?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there exactly two relevant songs? If so, did Claudia compose (including the possible creation of a derived work) both songs? One of the songs? None of the songs at all?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 459
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK. So Steve sues the company which employs Claudia at present over the copyright for a song Claudia composed when (s)he was an employee of Steve's company. He somehow uses Claudia's name as the damaged party.

Are there any more facts for us to establish?

Why is Claudia also the defendant?

Other than that your summation is pretty close - Steve's company files suit on Claudia's behalf, because Steve's company owns the rights to a song Claudia wrote while employed there. Although of course, if successful, Steve's company would get the rewards, not Claudia.
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there exactly two relevant songs?yes

If so, did Claudia compose (including the possible creation of a derived work) both songs? this One of the songs? None of the songs at all?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1087
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Claudia object that the two songs are different enough not to be considered subject to the same copyright?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Claudia object that the two songs are different enough not to be considered subject to the same copyright? correct

I'm not sure how much further we can go with this. I think this one might be ready to spoil (unless you're game to figure out who it is?)
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1089
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let's at least have a try :-)).

Is "Claudia" American? EUropean?
Is he still alive?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 271
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Claudia composed the first song when she was an employee of Steve's company. She either transferred/licenced the copyright to Steve's company, or it was considered work done for hire so Steve's company got the copyright anyway. Claudia quit her job and started to work for another company. She composed the second song, and her new company held the copyright (or a licence) to this song. Steve believed the second song was derived from the first one and initiated a lawsuit about this. Some rules about the naming of parties in copyright lawsuits caused Claudia to be named as plaintiff and also as defendant in this lawsuit.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1090
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it happen in the 20th century? 21st? If so, /LTPF list of decades/?

The genre of the song: Country? Rock?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is "Claudia" American? this
EUropean?
Is he still alive? yes
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Claudia composed the first song when she was an employee of Steve's company. She either transferred/licenced the copyright to Steve's company, or it was considered work done for hire so Steve's company got the copyright anyway. Claudia quit her job and started to work for another company. She composed the second song, and her new company held the copyright (or a licence) to this song. Steve believed the second song was derived from the first one and initiated a lawsuit about this. Some rules about the naming of parties in copyright lawsuits caused Claudia to be named as plaintiff and also as defendant in this lawsuit.
This is a very good summation. Correct. They are record companies, by the way - if that's not obvious by now...
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1092
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he older than 60? 50? 40? 30?

Is he member of a group?

Is he very popular?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it happen in the 20th century? yes 21st? If so, /LTPF list of decades/?

The genre of the song: Country? Rock? This. Maybe a touch of country too

Is he older than 60? this 50? 40? 30?

Is he member of a group? was

Is he very popular? was
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1093
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THe group does not exist anymore? Or he is not anymore a member?

Was he most popular in the sixties? Seventies? Eighties? Nineties? Earlier? Later?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he sing? Play an instrument? Write (other) songs himself?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THe group does not exist anymore? this Or he is not anymore a member?

Was he most popular in the sixties? Seventies? this Eighties? {and this} Nineties? Earlier? Later?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Post Number: 466
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he sing? Play an instrument? Write (other) songs himself? yes to all
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1094
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The group: Sex Pistols?

Claudia: Bob Dylan?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The group: Sex Pistols?
Claudia: Bob Dylan? Sorry, no to both.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1095
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I suppose you don't mind if we google at this point, do you?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I suppose you don't mind if we google at this point, do you? feel free!
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1096
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Matthew Fisher?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Matthew Fisher? No.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ozzy Osbourne?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ozzy Osbourne? no
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Fogerty?
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Fogerty? bingo



******************************SPOILER********************
John Fogerty assigned the copyright for his song "Run through the Jungle" (recorded while he was with Creedence Clearwater Revival) to Fantasy Record. Later he wrote (and recorded as a solo artist) "The Old Man is Down the Road" that was distributed by Warner Bros, that Fantasy claimed was derived from "Jungle" - essentially he was accused of pligiarizing himself.

The District Court rejected Fogerty's claim that he was immune from claims of copyright infringement of "Jungle" given his interest in the economic success of the earlier work; a jury later found that "Old Man" was not unfairly derivative of "Jungle."

Rolling Stone (12 January 1989) implies that this dispute was the culmination of twenty years of animosity between Fogerty and Saul Zaentz, chairman of Fantasy, Inc., the Berkeley company that owned the copyrights to most of the songs Fogerty recorded with his pop group Creedence Clearwater Revival.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 1098
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A nice one, Matt. Thank you.
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you - very good puzzle.
Gourami (Gourami)
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Username: Gourami

Post Number: 574
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I went to class, and it was done upon my return. Good one.
Dropofahat (Dropofahat)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 2:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks guys. I've been working on this one, struggling with the right way to word it (and with the temptation to include a song title or lyrics in the title). Sorry Gourami! But I'm kind of glad it went pretty quickly - I was afraid it would be difficult to establish that the plaintiff & defendant were the same person, until Markobr's seemingly offhand question.

Thanks again all.
Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 278
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Posted on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was really lucky at that point. I had noticed that the relations between the parties and interested companies must be quite complicated. I asked some questions to find out about that and added the crucial question more as a joke. I didn't know that it is even possible that plaintiff and defendant can be the same person in an American lawsuit. Well, I know that almost anything is possible in an American lawsuit...

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