| Author | Message | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2010 |
A Maths book I read recently made a tangential comment which cured me of a long-standing and fairly widespread scrund. What was it? | ||
| La_sparky (La_sparky)
New member Username: La_sparky Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2008 |
was it a geometry book? algebra? calculus? did it have to d with tangent? do teachers believe this scrund? students? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2010 |
was it a geometry book? algebra? calculus? None of these did it have to d with tangent? No, but a nice thought do teachers believe this scrund? students? Probably both, depending on what you mean. I'd need you to be more specific to give a more helpful answer. There may be a lurking FA. | ||
| Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
New member Username: Jumpingjack Post Number: 1141 Registered: 3-2006 |
Was it actually a scrund about Math? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 636 Registered: 6-2008 |
Did the scrund relate to objects too small to be seen with the naked eye (cells, molecules, atoms, etc.)? other small objects? Does the scrund relate to the history of mathematics? of a science? or anything else? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2010 |
Was it actually a scrund about Math? Noish. It's tangentially related, but I wouldn't say it's about Maths as such. Did the scrund relate to objects too small to be seen with the naked eye (cells, molecules, atoms, etc.)? other small objects? Yes. Atoms is closest. Does the scrund relate to the history of mathematics? of a science? This is closest or anything else? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 637 Registered: 6-2008 |
Does the scrund relate to who made a particular discovery? to when a certain object or law was first discovered? to which of two things was known first? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2010 |
Does the scrund relate to who made a particular discovery? No, with a very small ish to when a certain object or law was first discovered? No to which of two things was known first? Not this either | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 638 Registered: 6-2008 |
Would the relevant science best be called chemistry? physics? Did the relevant (to this puzzle) step(s) in the history of this science occur in the 20th century, the 19th? earlier? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2245 Registered: 5-2003 |
Was it part of a word problem? And the situation depicted, exclusive of the math involved, cured you of the scrund? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2010 |
Would the relevant science best be called chemistry? physics? This Did the relevant (to this puzzle) step(s) in the history of this science occur in the 20th century, This the 19th? earlier? Was it part of a word problem? And the situation depicted, exclusive of the math involved, cured you of the scrund? Sadly not. That would have made an interesting puzzle. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2272 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is it a scrund about a person? People? History? Physics? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2010 |
Is it a scrund about a person? This is closest People? History? With a bit of this Physics? And quite a lot of this | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2274 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did the math problem help you understand what a certain scientist had been thinking? Is it working out the maths of something that is not just pure math but has an application -- for example, the orbit of a planet or the speed of a brook? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2010 |
Did the math problem help you understand what a certain scientist had been thinking? No, and you may have a FA Is it working out the maths of something that is not just pure math but has an application -- for example, the orbit of a planet or the speed of a brook? There's that FA again | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 639 Registered: 6-2008 |
It seems people are assuming this was a math textbook. Is it in fact a different type of math book? Did the scrund about this physicist (you have stated it mainly regarded a person in physics, right?) concern what experiments he performed? what his theory was about something? whether something is named after him? how his work related to another historical event? Oh, and just to check, was/is this physicist a HAM? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2010 |
It seems people are assuming this was a math textbook. Is it in fact a different type of math book? Yes! Did the scrund about this physicist (you have stated it mainly regarded a person in physics, right?) That's right concern what experiments he performed? No what his theory was about something? Yes whether something is named after him? No, but this thing is named after him how his work related to another historical event? Yope Oh, and just to check, was/is this physicist a HAM? Yes, he was | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 640 Registered: 6-2008 |
Is the relevant theory part of classical mechanics? electromagnetism? quantum mechanics? relativity? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2010 |
Is the relevant theory part of classical mechanics? electromagnetism? quantum mechanics? This relativity? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 642 Registered: 6-2008 |
Bohr's model for hydrogen? The Heisenberg uncertainty principle? Schrodinger's cat? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 86 Registered: 1-2010 |
Bohr's model for hydrogen? The Heisenberg uncertainty principle? Schrodinger's cat? This | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2010 |
So the maths book I was reading (which is more or less irrelevant, but seemed like a handy way of making the puzzle harder) cured me of a scrund which related to Schrodinger's Cat. What was the scrund? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1260 Registered: 9-2009 |
Was your scrund: that the experiment actually was performed? That the cat actually would be both alive and dead? Some other aspect of the thought experiment itself? Something not directly pertaining to the experiment? Did you think it was a cat and not a thought experiment? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2010 |
Was your scrund: that the experiment actually was performed? No That the cat actually would be both alive and dead? No, although this is relevant to the answer Some other aspect of the thought experiment itself? Noish Something not directly pertaining to the experiment? Yesish Did you think it was a cat and not a thought experiment? I knew it was a thought experiment | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1571 Registered: 7-2009 |
Would you have had the same scrund if it were Schrodinger's dog, rather than cat? What about something inanimate like Schrodinger's light bulb? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2010 |
Would you have had the same scrund if it were Schrodinger's dog, rather than cat? Yes, indeed What about something inanimate like Schrodinger's light bulb? If anything, that would have made me more likely to have the scrund | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 647 Registered: 6-2008 |
Was the scrund about why? or when? Schrodinger invented the cat? what the implications of the thought experiment are in terms of physics? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 125 Registered: 1-2010 |
Was the scrund about why? Yes or when? No Schrodinger invented the cat? what the implications of the thought experiment are in terms of physics? Yes, by extension. You're nearly there. Care to guess at why I thought he came up with the cat before I $p01l? | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 652 Registered: 6-2008 |
Did you think he wanted to show that you can never be sure whether your observations are correct? in other words, even once you observed the cat, you could not tell for sure if it was alive or dead? Or, maybe you thought it was to show how observations change the state of a system? so that even if the cat was to die, it could not actually be dead unless it was possible to observe its death? (sort of like the old one about the tree falling in the forest with nobody to hear) | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 127 Registered: 1-2010 |
Did you think he wanted to show that you can never be sure whether your observations are correct? in other words, even once you observed the cat, you could not tell for sure if it was alive or dead? No, I knew that it was intended to illustrate the collapse of quantum probabilities on observation. The question is, why would he want to do that, and why did I think he did it? Or, maybe you thought it was to show how observations change the state of a system? so that even if the cat was to die, it could not actually be dead unless it was possible to observe its death? (sort of like the old one about the tree falling in the forest with nobody to hear) No. Strangely, I did have a scrund along these lines at one point, thanks to a rather sketchy explanation of the thought experiment, but it didn't last long. We're just about there, but it would be good if we could clarify the precise reason I thought he came up with the cat. | ||
| Kaygee (Kaygee)
New member Username: Kaygee Post Number: 442 Registered: 9-2008 |
I hope the answer doesn't require knowledge of quantum mechanics...all I know about that stuff is that Scott Bakula "leaped" around the world because of it! :D Is there something relevant about cats? Is there something relevant about life and death? Is there something relevant about your beliefs or ideals? Is there anything relevant about Jewish scientists? | ||
| Kaygee (Kaygee)
New member Username: Kaygee Post Number: 443 Registered: 9-2008 |
Ick...that last statement is horrible - let me add a few words. Is there anything relevant about the Jewish scientists involved? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2010 |
I hope the answer doesn't require knowledge of quantum mechanics...all I know about that stuff is that Scott Bakula "leaped" around the world because of it! :D But he did it with such style! Never fear. Having got this far, there's no scientific knowledge required at all Is there something relevant about cats? Is there something relevant about life and death? Is there something relevant about your beliefs or ideals? None of these. And taking your correction to the last question: Is there anything relevant about the Jewish scientists involved? Yope. Judaism has nothing to do with it, but particular scientists, and especially how they relate to each other, are relevant. | ||
| Kaygee (Kaygee)
New member Username: Kaygee Post Number: 447 Registered: 9-2008 |
Einstein? Podolsky? Rosen? Schrodinger? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 147 Registered: 1-2010 |
Einstein? Podolsky? Rosen? Schrodinger? Schrodinger's obviously relevant, in particular his relationship with a particular person and his views on his work, theories and interpretations. The others aren't directly relevant to the significant relationship, although they had a similar relationship with the same person. HINT: The "other person" was another notable scientist associated with Quantum Mechanics. | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1625 Registered: 7-2009 |
Heisenberg? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2010 |
Heisenberg? Not him. Probably the most famous one that hasn't been mentioned. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1358 Registered: 9-2009 |
Niels Bohr? | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 990 Registered: 5-2007 |
Max Planck? John von Neumann? Wolfgang Pauli? Paul Dirac? Louis de Broglie? Murray Gell-Mann? Richard Feynman? Hans Bethe? Julian Schwinger? Max Born? John Wheeler? Others too numerous to mention? Higgledy piggledy Herr Doktor Schrodinger Looked at his cat, and thus Killed it stone dead. "Well", he concluded with Insensitivity, "I guess that leaves it with Eight lives instead." | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2010 |
Niels Bohr? That's the one! Max Planck? John von Neumann? Wolfgang Pauli? Paul Dirac? Louis de Broglie? Murray Gell-Mann? Richard Feynman? Hans Bethe? Julian Schwinger? Max Born? John Wheeler? Others too numerous to mention? So none of these. But I loved the rhyme. So I had a scrund about why Schrodinger came up with his cat, and the real reason was something to do with his relationship with Niels Bohr. So why did he come up with the cat, and why did I think he did? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1477 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did you think it had to do with Niels Bohr? Or someone else? Did you think it was for the general public? | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2010 |
Did you think it had to do with Niels Bohr? Definitely not Or someone else? Quite the reverse Did you think it was for the general public? Pretty much. HINT: What was Schrodinger's understanding of Quantum Mechanics? How did it tally with his "Cat" thought experiment? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1538 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did you think he was explaining how wavefunction collapse worked? When in reality he was arguing that quantum superposition was not real (or not a good interpretation)? (Pardon me if I've used wrong terminology, my understanding of quantum physics is in a superposition of being good and bad=) | ||
| Torquemada (Torquemada)
New member Username: Torquemada Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2010 |
Did you think he was explaining how wavefunction collapse worked? Yes When in reality he was arguing that quantum superposition was not real (or not a good interpretation)? That's it! (Pardon me if I've used wrong terminology, my understanding of quantum physics is in a superposition of being good and bad=) ****SPOILER**** While I was reading Ian Stewart's excellent book Does God Play Dice?, he tangentially mentioned Schrodinger's Cat, and for the first time since I came across the concept about 20 years ago, I realised that Schrodinger didn't actually consider it a useful explanation of how Quantum Mechanics worked, as I'd thought, and in fact designed it specifically to ridicule the "Copenhagen Interpretation" championed by Niels Bohr, by taking that interpretation to its logical (and ridiculous) conclusion. The idea that the cat is simultaneously alive and dead is not his way of explaining the weirdness of QM, but his way of exposing the craziness of a particular interpretation. Thanks for playing, and for having the patience to stick with it once it got onto my precise belief about his motivation. | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1651 Registered: 7-2009 |
Too funny, since it's now the classic example used to explain to students how QM works. | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 715 Registered: 6-2008 |
Oh, I had that scrund too--though it does make the idea sound better. I always thought it sounded like an awful thought experiment. Surely the act of observing would not change the state of such a complex macroscopic system--even if it is true that it could change the state of an electron or an atom, and even if a cat could be sealed from transmitting any information to the outside world without dying (due to receiving no thermal energy). Now it makes sense, considering that he *intended* it to sound implausible. | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 1138 Registered: 10-2008 |
Wow, I had that scrund as well! And I've also thought it a bit cruel. Why can't it be a mouse, and the contraption be designed to give or not give it a piece of cheese? Why does something have to die(ish)? ;) |
