| Author | Message | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 615 Registered: 5-2009 |
A demonstration was necessary to get the letter forwarded. | ||
| Kaygee (Kaygee)
New member Username: Kaygee Post Number: 426 Registered: 9-2008 |
Is it the answer to life...you know after inflation? -- Just kidding! Does "demonstration" mean to show another how to do something? To protest? To march? To mimic? To prove a fact? to give a presentation? Does "letter" mean a written message? a character in the alphabet? a participation award from school sports? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2044 Registered: 5-2003 |
Anything to do with Area 51? Are all involved H/A/Ms? Are there 1, 2, 3, or more of them? Location relevant? Era? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 617 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is it the answer to life...you know after inflation? This, too. But not of relevance for the puzzle. -- Just kidding! Does "demonstration" mean to show another how to do something? This. To protest? To march? To mimic? To prove a fact? And this. to give a presentation? Does "letter" mean a written message? This. a character in the alphabet? a participation award from school sports? Anything to do with Area 51? No. Are all involved H/A/Ms? Yes. Are there 1, 2, 3, or more of them? More. Location relevant? Yes. Era? Yes. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2052 Registered: 5-2003 |
LTPF list of countries? LTPF list of centuries? Are entire specific groups or classes of people relevant? Political? Military? Sports? Education? A smaller specific group, like a family or committee, or a large one, like all the women in France, or every member of an army regiment? True story? Fiction? FYOI? Is the subject of the letter the same as the demonstration? Or is it similar? Is the demonstration to the postman? Or to someone else who has the power to forward a letter? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 618 Registered: 5-2009 |
LTPF list of countries? Germany. LTPF list of centuries? 20th century. Are entire specific groups or classes of people relevant? Political? Military? This. Sports? Education? A smaller specific group, like a family or committee, or a large one, like all the women in France, or every member of an army regiment? Not a regiment but a military unit. And especially some of its members. True story? This. Fiction? FYOI? Is the subject of the letter the same as the demonstration? Yes. Or is it similar? The same. Is the demonstration to the postman? Or to someone else who has the power to forward a letter? This. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2062 Registered: 5-2003 |
World Wars I or II relevant? Talking Hitler? or someone else? into releasing forces? On D-Day or at Dunkirk? LTPF list of military units: Section? Vehicle crew? Ship crew? Aircraft crew? Squad? Platoon? Company? Flight? Airgroup? Battalion? Ad hoc battlegroup? Task force? Squadron? Flotilla? Fleet? Brigade? Division? Corps? Army? Army Group? Some of its members: Staff? Officers? Noncommissioned officers? Enlisted? Is the demonstration to prove the efficacy of something? Its accuracy? Proof of its existence? Are the demonstrators relevant? Are they combat troops? Civilians? New weapons or equipment relevant? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 619 Registered: 5-2009 |
World Wars I or II relevant? WW II. Talking Hitler? Hitler was not involved. or someone else? Someone else was involved ;) into releasing forces? No. On D-Day or at Dunkirk? Dunkirk is remotely relevant. LTPF list of military units: Section? Vehicle crew? Ship crew? Aircraft crew? Squad? Platoon? Company? Flight? Airgroup? Battalion? Ad hoc battlegroup? Task force? Squadron? Flotilla? Fleet? Brigade? Division? This. Corps? Army? Army Group? Some of its members: Staff? Officers? They're all officers but not all of the officers. And no formal subdivision of officers either. Noncommissioned officers? Not sure about that. Enlisted? Not sure about that. Is the demonstration to prove the efficacy of something? No. Its accuracy? No. Proof of its existence? In some way. Are the demonstrators relevant? Yes. Are they combat troops? Yes. Civilians? No. New weapons or equipment relevant? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 978 Registered: 9-2009 |
Relevant why the letter was not forwarded in the first place? Was it only one letter? Or more than one, regarding the same subject? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 621 Registered: 5-2009 |
Relevant why the letter was not forwarded in the first place? Yes. Was it only one letter? Yes. Or more than one, regarding the same subject? So, no. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2069 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Battle of France relevant? The Battle of Britain? Was this during the occupation of France? The invasion of France? No formal subdivision... are they part of an informal subdivision? A committee? Do they share some conviction? To whom was the letter addressed: A senior officer? A civilian? Who would have forwarded the letter: A senior officer? A civilian? Was it necessary to convince this latter person of something? If so, could he be convinced directly (say, by personally witnessing a demonstration) or indirectly (by being informed something had been demonstrated)? The demonstration demonstrates the existence of a thing? a concept? an enemy unit? an enemy tactic or move? Does the demonstration require its (pilot? user? button-pusher?) to go into combat? Are the Germans the demonstrators? Are they demonstrating something to other Germans? Allies aware of what is being demonstrated? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2009 |
The Battle of France relevant? Yes. The Battle of Britain? No. Was this during the occupation of France? The invasion of France? Thisish. No formal subdivision... are they part of an informal subdivision? No. They have something in common, of course. A committee? Do they share some conviction? No or irrelevant. To whom was the letter addressed: A senior officer? A civilian? This. Who would have forwarded the letter: A senior officer? A civilian? Neither. Was it necessary to convince this latter person of something? Yes. If so, could he be convinced directly (say, by personally witnessing a demonstration) or indirectly (by being informed something had been demonstrated)? I don't know. The demonstration demonstrates the existence of a thing? a concept? Yope. an enemy unit? an enemy tactic or move? No to the rest. Does the demonstration require its (pilot? user? button-pusher?) to go into combat? No. Watch out for FAs! Are the Germans the demonstrators? No. Are they demonstrating something to other Germans? They are demonstration something to Germans. Allies aware of what is being demonstrated? Rephrase. Again, watch out for FAs! | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2071 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is this a military demonstration? A civilian one? Which invasion of France - 1940 or 1944? Is this event occurring in France? Belgium? Germany? The Channel? Are the Allies doing the demonstrating? Axis members who are not German? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is this a military demonstration? No. A civilian one? So, yes. Which invasion of France - 1940 or 1944? 1940 Is this event occurring in France? Belgium? Germany? This. The Channel? Are the Allies doing the demonstrating? Soldiers of the Allies. Axis members who are not German? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2075 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is this before the invasion, or during it? Are Allied troops (British, French, or Belgian?) involved? An Allied (or German)? division is in Germany? Observing Germany? Defending against an attack from Germany? Attacking France? Or Belgium? Is this a demonstration in the military sense (for example, a feint or some other distraction)? Will the Allies? or Germans? forward the letter? Will it be forwarded to someone on the Allied side? German? Is this a typical letter (addressed and stamped)? Is it written on paper and sealed in an envelope? Diplomatic pouch? Is any sort of deception involved? On the part of the Germans? Allies? Battle plans involved? Maps? Propaganda leaflets? Photographs? Illustrations? Allied troops are demonstrating something for civilians? Allied or German civilians? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 627 Registered: 5-2009 |
Is this before the invasion, or during it? During. Are Allied troops (British, French, or Belgian?) involved? British. An Allied (or German)? division is in Germany? Allied officers, all belonging to a certain division, are in Germany. Observing Germany? Defending against an attack from Germany? Attacking France? Or Belgium? None of these. Is this a demonstration in the military sense (for example, a feint or some other distraction)? No. Will the Allies? or Germans? Germans. forward the letter? Will it be forwarded to someone on the Allied side? German? To a civilian in an Allied country. Is this a typical letter (addressed and stamped)? Addressed, probably not stamped. Is it written on paper Yes. and sealed in an envelope? In an envelope, but not sealed when the demonstration takes place. Diplomatic pouch? No. Is any sort of deception involved? No, but... On the part of the Germans? Allies? Battle plans involved? Maps? Propaganda leaflets? Photographs? Illustrations? None of these. Allied troops are demonstrating something for civilians? No. Allied or German civilians? Germans, but not civilians. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2078 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are these allied officers spies? scouts? POWs? Who must demonstrate something to German soldiers? Officers? in order to get the Germans to send a letter to an Allied civilian? Or in order to send the letter themselves? Are they members of the 51st Scottish Division captured at St. Valery? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 629 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are these allied officers spies? No. scouts? No. POWs? Yes. Who must demonstrate something to German soldiers? Officers? Yes. in order to get the Germans to send a letter to an Allied civilian? Or in order to send the letter themselves? One of the Allied officers wants to send the letter. He has to convince the Germans to forward it. Are they members of the 51st Scottish Division captured at St. Valery? YES. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2079 Registered: 5-2003 |
Heh. Good thing I listen to the Battlefield Band (who wrote a fine song about St. Valery). Is the fact that they're Scots relevant? Would this work if they were Welsh or English officers? Is the letter written in English? Gaelic? Relevant? Is an escape from prison relevant? Is there an obvious reason why the Germans would not want to send the letter? Do the Germans request a demonstration? Anything to do with the risky tactic of acting insane in order to get repatriated? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 630 Registered: 5-2009 |
Heh. Good thing I listen to the Battlefield Band (who wrote a fine song about St. Valery). Is the fact that they're Scots relevant? Yes. Would this work if they were Welsh or English officers? Something alike would be possible but much less probable I think. Is the letter written in English? This. Gaelic? Relevant? No. Is an escape from prison relevant? No. Is there an obvious reason why the Germans would not want to send the letter? Yes. Do the Germans request a demonstration? Yes. Anything to do with the risky tactic of acting insane in order to get repatriated? No. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2081 Registered: 5-2003 |
So, we have some officer POWs of the Highland Division, in a German POW camp, who want to send a letter to someone in Britain. In order to get this approved, they must demonstrate something to their German captors. Correct? Are they demonstrating before guards? The commandant? Visitors? Are they demonstrating something military in nature? Something related to their imprisonment? Something related to their culture? Are the Scots line officers? Field officers? Generals? How many are there -- one, two, three, more? Same questions for the Germans involved. Do they want the letter sent to a specific person? Is the person or agency to whom it will be sent the intended recipient of the letter? Are the Germans aware of this? Is military information contained in the letter? Personal? Any Scottish traditions relevant? Dancing? Kilts? Piping? Are the Germans impressed by the demonstration? Favorably? Is it Hogmanay or St. Andrew's Day? Are any of the Scottish officers present veterans of WWI? Any of the Germans? Relevant? Any of the following relevant: - The POW camp's location? - Terrain? - Weather? - Time of year? - Exact date? - Combat experience? - Background of the Germans involved? - Ages? - Names? - Length of captivity? If he was aware of this incident, would Hitler have approved? Would Churchill? Is the title relevant for more reasons than just referencing the division's number? Is there a question to which "51st Highland Division" is the answer? Could this have occurred among Scottish POWs who were NOT captured at St Valery? For example, members of the reconstituted 51st captured by the Afrika Korps? Prisoners in Italy? Prisoners held by someone other than Germans (Japanese, for example)? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 631 Registered: 5-2009 |
So, we have some officer POWs of the Highland Division, in a German POW camp, who want to send a letter to someone in Britain. In order to get this approved, they must demonstrate something to their German captors. Correct? Yes. Are they demonstrating before guards? Yes. The commandant? Possibly. Visitors? Probably not. Are they demonstrating something military in nature? No. Something related to their imprisonment? No. Something related to their culture? Yes. Are the Scots line officers? Field officers? Irrelevant. Generals? No, irrelevant. How many are there -- one, two, three, more? More. Same questions for the Germans involved. Not sure about the number of viewers. Only one of them is really relevant. Do they want the letter sent to a specific person? Yes. Is the person or agency to whom it will be sent the intended recipient of the letter? Yes. Are the Germans aware of this? They are not sure. Is military information contained in the letter? No. Personal? Yes. Any Scottish traditions relevant? Dancing? This. Kilts? Piping? Are the Germans impressed by the demonstration? Possibly. Favorably? If they are impressed then probably favorably. Is it Hogmanay or St. Andrew's Day? No. Are any of the Scottish officers present veterans of WWI? Any of the Germans? Relevant? Irrelevant. Any of the following relevant: - The POW camp's location? - Terrain? - Weather? - Time of year? - Exact date? - Combat experience? - Background of the Germans involved? Yope. - Ages? - Names? - Length of captivity? Only in general terms. If he was aware of this incident, would Hitler have approved? Probably. Would Churchill? Yes. Is the title relevant for more reasons than just referencing the division's number? No. Is there a question to which "51st Highland Division" is the answer? No. The words "51st division" are relevant, however. Could this have occurred among Scottish POWs who were NOT captured at St Valery? Yes. For example, members of the reconstituted 51st captured by the Afrika Korps? Yes. Prisoners in Italy? Yes. Prisoners held by someone other than Germans (Japanese, for example)? Yes. | ||
| Woubit (Woubit)
Moderator Username: Woubit Post Number: 955 Registered: 5-2007 |
A long shot, since dancing and woubits are renowned for being as incompatible as possible: Is the notion that the letter contained some instructions for performing a particular dance? and that the Germans required convincing that this was in fact the case, rather than (perhaps) that the letter contained some encrypted military secrets? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2088 Registered: 5-2003 |
"There is Highland dancing as performed when ladies are present, and there is Highland dancing." Is the dance decent or wild, and is that relevant? The one relevant German -- the one responsible for mail? The senior guard present? The censor? A particular dance relevant? Does just one man perform it, or several? General length of captivity -- several years? Or very recent? Are the Germans part of a 51st (German) division? Do they have some other relationship to the 51st for some reason other than being its captors? Any of them related to Prince Rupprecht? :p Is this a Wehrmacht or SS camp? The person receiving the letter: - A politician? - Friend or relation? - Military intelligence? The Highlanders sending the letter: - Just one, or several? Do several sign the letter? Is it just a few lines, several pages, or longer? Do the POWs have to do anything besides dance? Such as manual labor? Do the Germans do anything besides watch the dance and approve the letter? Do they suspect trickery? Is this towards the end of the war, perhaps with Allied units just down the road? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2089 Registered: 5-2003 |
Have the Germans requested the dance? Or was it the Scots' idea? Is the dance intended as a distraction? Or simply as an "exchange" for mailing the letter? Is any other element of Scottish culture besides dancing relevant? Relevant exactly where they're dancing? A theater? Outside? In barracks (could be dangerous)? Relevant how long the dance lasts? Are the Germans pleased by the demonstration? Does the demonstration have any intended effect other than to show off the officers' dancing skills? Relevant how many Scottish officers are present? If so, LTPF list of integers. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 637 Registered: 5-2009 |
A long shot, since dancing and woubits are renowned for being as incompatible as possible: But compatible enough for hitting the nail on the head (or is it a bull's eye, given that it was a long *shot*?). Is the notion that the letter contained some instructions for performing a particular dance? Yes. and that the Germans required convincing that this was in fact the case, rather than (perhaps) that the letter contained some encrypted military secrets? Exactly. Sorry, Jenburdoo - two sets of well thought-out questions for almost nothing additional. This is almost ready for a spoiler. There is one information about the dance missing which is probably quite obvious now but which I want you to tell me. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 638 Registered: 5-2009 |
"There is Highland dancing as performed when ladies are present, and there is Highland dancing." Is the dance decent or wild, and is that relevant? Decent enough for ladies to be present (and involved, although this was not the case in that demonstration for obvious reasons). And it's not what's commonly called "Highland Dancing". All this is only remotely relevant. The one relevant German -- the one responsible for mail? The senior guard present? The censor? This. A particular dance relevant? YES. Does just one man perform it, or several? Several. General length of captivity -- several years? Or very recent? About six months, and they were sure they would remain captives for quite a while. Are the Germans part of a 51st (German) division? No. Do they have some other relationship to the 51st for some reason other than being its captors? No or irrelevant. Any of them related to Prince Rupprecht? :p No or irrelevant. Is this a Wehrmacht or SS camp? Wehrmacht. The person receiving the letter: - A politician? - Friend or relation? This. The wife of one of the officers. - Military intelligence? The Highlanders sending the letter: - Just one, or several? One. Do several sign the letter? No. Is it just a few lines, several pages, or longer? More than a few lines, not sure about exact length. Do the POWs have to do anything besides dance? No. (Not even before the demonstration). Such as manual labor? No. Do the Germans do anything besides watch the dance and approve the letter? Maybe asking for explanations. Do they suspect trickery? Initially, yes. Is this towards the end of the war, perhaps with Allied units just down the road? No. Have the Germans requested the dance? The demonstration? Yes. Or was it the Scots' idea? Not sure who had the idea to show the dance in order to get the letter approved by the censor. Is the dance intended as a distraction? No. Or simply as an "exchange" for mailing the letter? No. Is any other element of Scottish culture besides dancing relevant? No. Relevant exactly where they're dancing? No. A theater? Outside? In barracks (could be dangerous)? Relevant how long the dance lasts? No. Are the Germans pleased by the demonstration? Possibly. Does the demonstration have any intended effect other than to show off the officers' dancing skills? Yes. Convince the censor. Relevant how many Scottish officers are present? Present? Not really. Dancing? Yes. If so, LTPF list of integers. 10. | ||
| Probably_monty_hall (Probably_monty_hall)
New member Username: Probably_monty_hall Post Number: 137 Registered: 10-2009 |
Were the other 9 Scottish officers aware of this dance before the letter was composed? If not, was the fact that they were able to perform the dance after reading the letter evidence that the letter indeed contained dancing instructions? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2090 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hm, it occurs I haven't asked outright if the demonstration is of dancing. Have the Germans read the letter before the demonstration? Does the demonstration have to do with something in the letter? Is the general gist of the letter to reassure the officer's wife and let her know everything's ok (as you would normally expect of a letter from a soldier to his wife)? Does the letter discuss a dance? That the officer knows? That he has devised? Is his wife a professional dancer? Does anything he writes appear to have a double meaning? Is it a woman's dance? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 640 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were the other 9 Scottish officers aware of this dance before the letter was composed? Yes. If not, was the fact that they were able to perform the dance after reading the letter evidence that the letter indeed contained dancing instructions? No. Nothing more to find out here. Hm, it occurs I haven't asked outright if the demonstration is of dancing. Have the Germans read the letter before the demonstration? Yes. Does the demonstration have to do with something in the letter? Yes, with the dancing instructions in it. Is the general gist of the letter to reassure the officer's wife and let her know everything's ok (as you would normally expect of a letter from a soldier to his wife)? Probably. Does the letter discuss a dance? Yes. That the officer knows? Yes. That he has devised? YES. Is his wife a professional dancer? No or irrelevant. Does anything he writes appear to have a double meaning? Only in the sense that the Germans suspect the dance instructions might be cifertext. Is it a woman's dance? It is intended to be danced by men and women together. But now I thing you found out enough for a ======= SPOILER ======= This is the story of The Reel of the 51st Division, a Scottish Country Dance devised by three officers of the 51st (Highland) Division in winter 1940 while they were PoW in an officers' prison camp in Laufen, Bavaria. When one of the officers tried to send a description of the dance to his wife, the censor suspected the description to be some kind of code and didn't want to allow it being sent. Only after the officers demonstrated the dance to the camp authorities, they could be convinced that the text was indeed a dance description. The dance became quite popular soon and was the first newly-invented dance ever to be published by the (R)SCDS (slightly modified). Details of the dance's history can be found at http://my.strathspey.org/anselm/stories/reelofthe51st | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2091 Registered: 5-2003 |
A very good story! It's made me start rereading GM Fraser's McAuslan series, about life in a Scottish battalion shortly after WWII (and from which I've developed several puzzles.) |
