| Author | Message | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1486 Registered: 7-2009 |
His grandpa would have called it waste. He called it hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. | ||
| Fleemco198 (Fleemco198)
New member Username: Fleemco198 Post Number: 334 Registered: 9-2009 |
his=he? could it be related to education i.e. college? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1487 Registered: 7-2009 |
his=he? yes could it be related to education i.e. college? no | ||
| Tommyp (Tommyp)
New member Username: Tommyp Post Number: 1094 Registered: 3-2004 |
Did they talk about the same thing? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1081 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is it a job? Are the hundreds of thousands of dollar a salary? Bonus? Profit? Does he receive the money? Does someone else? Or is the relevant part spending the money? Or handling it? Like in a bank? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1488 Registered: 7-2009 |
Did they talk about the same thing? yes Is it a job? no Are the hundreds of thousands of dollar a salary? no Bonus? no Profit? this is closest, but not right Does he receive the money? yope Does someone else? no Or is the relevant part spending the money? no Or handling it? no Like in a bank? no | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1088 Registered: 9-2009 |
Are the dollars actual dollars? Some other currency? Or something else with that value? Relevant why grandpa would've called it a waste? Related to the times he grew up in? He=HAM? Is this happening in modern times? Relevant where? Entertainment industry relevant? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1489 Registered: 7-2009 |
Are the dollars actual dollars? yesish Some other currency? irrel Or something else with that value? yes Relevant why grandpa would've called it a waste? yes Related to the times he grew up in? yes He=HAM? yes Is this happening in modern times? yes Relevant where? yes Entertainment industry relevant? no | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1099 Registered: 9-2009 |
Does grandpa consider it a waste of: talent? Time? Resources? Money? Life? Does it happen in [LTPF list of continents]? Wars when grandpa grew up relevant? If so: WWI? WWII? Cold war? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1490 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does grandpa consider it a waste of: talent? Time? Resources? this one-ish Money? Life? Does it happen in [LTPF list of continents]? this is based on a true story that takes place in the US. However, it could happen on almost any continent, in many different countries, and most likely does Wars when grandpa grew up relevant? no If so: WWI? WWII? Cold war? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1132 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is his profession relevant? Is what he's doing his job? Food relevant? does Grandpa think it's a waste of energy? Technology relevant? Is what he's doing tied to govenment? Space travel renevant? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1504 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is his profession relevant? yes Is what he's doing his job? yes Food relevant? indirectly does Grandpa think it's a waste of energy? hard to answer. In one sense (the sense you probably meant when asking it), the answer to this question is a definite no. In another sense, it is a definite yes Technology relevant? yes Is what he's doing tied to govenment? no Space travel renevant? no | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1140 Registered: 9-2009 |
Waste of energy: his energy? Mechanical/electrical/chemical/other physical energy? Racing relevant? Vehicles? Oil? Sports? Is there food wasted? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1506 Registered: 7-2009 |
Waste of energy: his energy? no Mechanical/electrical/chemical/ this one, but may mislead...see below other physical energy? Racing relevant? no Vehicles? no Oil? no Sports? no Is there food wasted? just like the energy question before, the answer to this one is no. However, in a way, the answer is yes. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1141 Registered: 9-2009 |
Food, but not for humans? For animals? Insects? Other life forms? Or something intangible? Such as food for thought? Is the food and the chemical energy the same thing? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1507 Registered: 7-2009 |
Food, but not for humans? Food for humans is indirectly relevant, but... For animals? ... in the previous answer post, when I said food was yope-ishly wasted, I was referring to food for animals. Insects? no Other life forms? no Or something intangible? no Such as food for thought? no Is the food and the chemical energy the same thing? yes | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1142 Registered: 9-2009 |
Do humans eat the animals afterwards? Or something produced by the animals? Or use something of the animals, but not for food? Relevant what kind of animals? If so: mammals? Birds? Fishes? Reptilians? Crustaceans? Insects? Breeding relevant? Is he breeding special deluxe worms for fishermen, whereas Grandpa thinks a bucket and shovel should be all a fisherman needs to get bait? Or does he fish small fish in the oceans, which are used to feed bigger fish in a fish farm? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1508 Registered: 7-2009 |
Do humans eat the animals afterwards? no Or something produced by the animals? yes or yesish Or use something of the animals, but not for food? Relevant what kind of animals? yes If so: mammals? this one Birds? Fishes? Reptilians? Crustaceans? Insects? Breeding relevant? only slightly and indirectly. Is he breeding special deluxe worms for fishermen, whereas Grandpa thinks a bucket and shovel should be all a fisherman needs to get bait? no Or does he fish small fish in the oceans, which are used to feed bigger fish in a fish farm? no, but good idea for a puzzle | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1143 Registered: 9-2009 |
Milk? Are they cows? Other dairy animals? Is the animal product processed before being eaten? Added to something? Has something added to it? The animals don't have to die for the humans to get the food, correct? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1509 Registered: 7-2009 |
Milk? yes Are they cows? yes, dairy cows Other dairy animals? no Is the animal product processed before being eaten? irrel Added to something? irrel Has something added to it? irrel The animals don't have to die for the humans to get the food, correct? correct To save you the trouble... Now you know that the way in which human food is indirectly related is that dairy cows are involved. You don't need to know anything else about the milk.. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1144 Registered: 9-2009 |
Does grandpa think it's a waste to keep dairy cows? Or a waste to feed them what they're being fed? Does he think it should be used for human food instead? Or not produced in the first place? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1510 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does grandpa think it's a waste to keep dairy cows? Or a waste to feed them what they're being fed? Does he think it should be used for human food instead? Or not produced in the first place? no to all. And you have a lurking FA. | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2009 |
Is Grandpa no longer alive? Was this the FA? Would Grandpa have thought it was a waste because of the context surrounding his life? Are there relevant events during Grandpa's lifetime that we need to find out about? If so, specific to his life? or specific to his community? country? to the world? Great Depression relevant? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1511 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is Grandpa no longer alive? correct Was this the FA? yes Would Grandpa have thought it was a waste because of the context surrounding his life? I don't think so. Are there relevant events during Grandpa's lifetime that we need to find out about? no If so, specific to his life? or specific to his community? country? to the world? Great Depression relevant? no | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 854 Registered: 10-2008 |
Does this refer to something that is done with dairy cows today that was not done in his grandfathers day? Any of the following relevant: the size of farms? The space given to each cow? Mechanical milking? Growing hay? Bales of hay? Grass? Other cow food? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1512 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does this refer to something that is done with dairy cows today that was not done in his grandfathers day? yes Any of the following relevant: the size of farms? indirectly The space given to each cow? indirectly Mechanical milking? maybe indirectly Growing hay? no Bales of hay? see next Grass? see next Other cow food? yes and no -- the type of food is irrel, but cow food is somewhat relevant (see my posts 1506 and 1507) | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1153 Registered: 9-2009 |
Grazing relevant? Pastures? Is it a waste to feed the cows when they could go out and eat perfectly good grass by themselves? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1513 Registered: 7-2009 |
Grazing relevant? no Pastures? no Is it a waste to feed the cows when they could go out and eat perfectly good grass by themselves? no. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2160 Registered: 5-2003 |
A method of feeding cows? Industrial milking or raising relevant? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1521 Registered: 7-2009 |
A method of feeding cows? no. I may have misled when I said food was somewhat relevant. Neither what they eat nor how they eat matters. Industrial milking or raising relevant? yesish | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2163 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hmm, if the title is relevant -- is cow manure relevant? Is that the waste? Is it created wholesale in an industrial farm but is sold as fertilizer? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1522 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hmm, if the title is relevant -- is cow manure relevant? yes Is that the waste? yes! Is it created wholesale in an industrial farm but is sold as fertilizer? no | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2165 Registered: 5-2003 |
But the manure is worth money in some way? Is it sold for some purpose? Used for some purpose? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1523 Registered: 7-2009 |
But the manure is worth money in some way? yes Is it sold for some purpose? no Used for some purpose? yes | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2166 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is it used as fertilizer? As fuel? Does its use save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1525 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is it used as fertilizer? no As fuel? yes Does its use save hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? yes | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1528 Registered: 7-2009 |
Jenburdoo has the crux of the answer, but for me, one question remains...why does this puzzle involve dairy cows specifically? | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 868 Registered: 10-2008 |
Revealing ignorance of the cattle industry in 3...2...1... Are they fed something different, which is better for fuel? Does it have to do with how old the cows are? Perhaps dairy cows get to live longer, or cows must reach a certain age to, ahem, produce fuel properly? Or does it have to do with how much energy the farm requires? What type of energy? Would the manure be supplying power to the milking machines? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1533 Registered: 7-2009 |
Revealing ignorance of the cattle industry in 3...2...1... Are they fed something different, which is better for fuel? Does it have to do with how old the cows are? Perhaps dairy cows get to live longer, or cows must reach a certain age to, ahem, produce fuel properly? no to all Or does it have to do with how much energy the farm requires? What type of energy? no to both Would the manure be supplying power to the milking machines? yes, but irrelevant. As a hint, the milking process is relevant, but not because of its source of energy | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 622 Registered: 6-2008 |
Possibly the fact that the cows must be brought somewhere each day to be milked makes it simple to collect manure from them? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1536 Registered: 7-2009 |
Possibly the fact that the cows must be brought somewhere each day to be milked makes it simple to collect manure from them? ORT. However, keep in mind that this energy source only works for "him" (I can't believe we haven't named him yet. How about Greg?). It would not have worked for Greg's grandfather -- even if the energy-harnessing technology had been available at the time. | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2008 |
Does it have to do with government regulations on farms? With how the milk is marketed ("organic")? How it is packaged or processed? Would no one in the grandfather's time have been able to do this? Or is the grandfather's inability specific to him? Is Greg working on the same farm? Relevant? Just to be clear: he's saving hundreds of thousands of dollars? Or is he making it? Being given it? Is it the money he's saving on fuel? Is it money he doesn't have to pay to the government? To someone else? Is it money he's given? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1540 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does it have to do with government regulations on farms? no With how the milk is marketed ("organic")? no How it is packaged no or processed? yesish Would no one in the grandfather's time have been able to do this? correct Or is the grandfather's inability specific to him? no Is Greg working on the same farm? possibly Relevant? no Oh! silly me, I guess the "crux of the answer" isn't quite all the way there after all. I don't know what I was thinking. You're right, you still need to figure out where the money figures in. Sorry about that. The dairy question is an interesting side question, but don't let me distract you too far from the main part of the puzzle! Sorry! Just to be clear: he's saving hundreds of thousands of dollars? yes Or is he making it? he may also be making some money, but irrel. Being given it?no Is it the money he's saving on fuel? not exactly. Is it money he doesn't have to pay to the government? no To someone else? yes Is it money he's given? no | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1226 Registered: 9-2009 |
Does he save money on electricity? Is the manure: burned as it is? Turned into gas? Which is then burned? Or turned into electricity? If so, relevant how the electricity is used? Machinery that didn't exist on grandpa's time relevant? Technology? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1551 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does he save money on electricity? yes Is the manure: burned as it is? Turned into gas? yes Which is then burned? yes Or turned into electricity? and yes If so, relevant how the electricity is used? Machinery that didn't exist on grandpa's time relevant? yes Technology? and yes Ok, NOW the crux of the original puzzle is solved. The farmer (Greg) has machinery that collects manure, collects the methane gas that it products, and heats it to turn a turbine that generates electricity. He saves hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by producing his own electricity this way. This machinery/technology did not exist when his grandfather was alive. Now, my secondary question remains...why does this scenario specify dairy cows? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1236 Registered: 9-2009 |
Because he runs the milking machines with this electricity? And in Grandpa's time they had not been invented, and so they would've had to hand-milk the cows even with all the free electricity? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1554 Registered: 7-2009 |
Because he runs the milking machines with this electricity? irrel And in Grandpa's time they had not been invented, and so they would've had to hand-milk the cows yes even with all the free electricity? irrel I think a RECAP of the dairy cow related posts is in order: As you have established, Greg collects cow manure from his dairy farm and uses it to generate electricity. My question for you is why this system makes sense on a dairy farm but not on, say, a beef cattle farm. The following are irrelevant: - The suitability of the cows' food source for making fuel. - The age of the cows - The amount of energy the farm requires (though you are correct that Greg's farm would require more electricity than his grandfather's farm) - The type of energy the farm requires - What the power is used for - Government regulations - How the milk is marketed ("organic") What IS relevant: - the mechanical milking process, but NOT because it uses electricity - no one in the grandfather's time would have been able to do what Greg does, even if the technology for making electricity out of manure had existed. On the right track: Dairy cows have to be brought to a specific location each day to be milked (making it easier to collect the manure) whereas beef cattle do not. Come to think of it, this is actually more than just ORT, it's actually half of the answer. Now, why would this work for Greg's modern dairy cows, but not his grandfather's? If you can figure this out, then you'll figure out the other half of why this system works for dairy cows. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 2262 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would this method work for goats that are milked, assuming you could use goat waste as fuel? Would it work with pigs, which I understand produce a heckuva lot more waste than cows? So there are two reasons for the success of the process -- reason 1 is that milk cows are milked at a specific place, whereas beef cattle presumably are scattered all over the prairie. Would this method work on beef cattle in the stereotypical non-PC factory farm where they never leave their stalls? Is it easier to herd cows today? Or to simply keep them in place, given new methods of keeping them healthy without normal exercise? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1565 Registered: 7-2009 |
Would this method work for goats that are milked, assuming you could use goat waste as fuel? Would it work with pigs, which I understand produce a heckuva lot more waste than cows? I would think it would be possible for both, if you presume that they're handled the same way as dairy cows are. So there are two reasons for the success of the process /b{not exactly. There's one reason. Half of that reason is that cows are milked at a specific place. The other half of that reason relates to what makes this work for Greg but not his grandfather. But it's really just one reason. Or you could think of it as reason 1a and 1b...the two are very closely related.} -- reason 1 is that milk cows are milked at a specific place, whereas beef cattle presumably are scattered all over the prairie. yes Would this method work on beef cattle in the stereotypical non-PC factory farm where they never leave their stalls? it would (with some irrelevant adjustments, I would think) Is it easier to herd cows today? no, or irrel. Or to simply keep them in place, yesish given new methods of keeping them healthy without normal exercise? irrel-- even cows in a pasture don't get much exercise, so I don't think they worry about this too much | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 1290 Registered: 9-2009 |
Are the cows milked by a milking robot? Or by humans using milking machines? Relevant? Is it also relevant how the cows are fed? Or when? Are they fed in connection witht he milking? Are they all milked at roughly the same time? Relevant? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1605 Registered: 7-2009 |
Are the cows milked by a milking robot? no for both Greg and Grandpa Or by humans using milking machines? Greg - yes. Grandpa, no Relevant? The fact that there are machines is relevant. It doesn't really matter how they work Is it also relevant how the cows are fed? yes Or when? no, other than that it is not at the same time as milking Are they fed in connection witht he milking? no, but the way they are fed is related to the way they are milked Are they all milked at roughly the same time? grandpa - yes; Greg - noish Relevant? very | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1620 Registered: 7-2009 |
HINT/RECAP: Greg is a dairy farmer who collects manure from his dairy cows and turns it into electricity. His grandfather was also a dairy farmer. However, even if the technology Greg uses to generate electricity had existed then, Grandpa still wouldn't have been able to do it. Why? The reason that this works for dairy farmers but not other cows has something to do with the cows being brought to a central location to be milked (making manure easier to collect?), but that is not the whole answer. The whole answer lies in the comparison between Greg and Grandpa. What Greg and Grandpa have in COMMON: - Both dairy cattle farmers - Both milk their cows in a central location (barn) What is DIFFERENT between Greg and Grandpa: - Grandpa - milk by hand; Greg - mechanical milking - Grandpa - all cows milked at roughly same time of day; Greg - cows milked throughout day - Because of the differences above, something important is different about the way the cows are fed (HINT: *where* is relevant) - (Greg also would have a much larger herd, due to mechanical milking, but this is irrelevant) | ||
| Kaygee (Kaygee)
New member Username: Kaygee Post Number: 445 Registered: 9-2008 |
Are the cows fed in Greg's milking stalls? Did Grandpa feed the cows out in the field? How to ask this delicately...Do dairy cows typically eat and defecate at the same time? Or within a short time before or after eating? (Ick...do I even want to know that answer?) | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1621 Registered: 7-2009 |
Are the cows fed in Greg's milking stalls? /b{yes!! (well, the barn doens't have individual stalls, but yes)} Did Grandpa feed the cows out in the field? /b{yes} How to ask this delicately...Do dairy cows typically eat and defecate at the same time? Or within a short time before or after eating? no to both, and that's actually important(Ick...do I even want to know that answer?) I could draw this out and have you tell me why they do it that way, but I don't think it's necessary, so... *****SPOILER****** *Original puzzle:* Greg collects manure from his dairy cows and uses it to generate electricity. He has a special machine that heats the manure, collects the methane it releases, and uses the methane to turn an electricity generating turbine. He saves $200,000 a year on electricity -- partly from not having to buy electricity from the public utility, and partly because he generates so much extra electricity that he is able to sell it. In addition to his farm, 12 neighboring houses are powered by his electricity. Based on this article: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/07/31/cow.power/index.html (includes a video if you want to see how they collect it) ******SPOILER, FOLLOWUP QUESTION********* The question was why this had to be dairy cows. Dairy cows are brought to a central location to be milked, making the manure easier to collect. However, who's to say that they're going to defecate while they're at the milking barn? In Grandpa's day, the cows would have been collected up all at once, milked by hand at a certain time of day, and then turned loose back into the field to eat, so collecting the manure for this purpose wouldn't have been feasible. However, today's dairy cattle are milked by machine. This allows for a much larger herd, but they can't all be milked at once, so they are milked in shifts throughout the day. Because of this, they eat, sleep, and get milked in the dairy barn. Most modern dairy cows spend almost their entire lives standing on a concrete floor in the dairy barn. That creates a manure disposal problem that dairy farmers have to deal with, but the kind of system featured in this puzzle turns the manure disposal problem into a huge advantage. Thanks everyone who participated!! |
