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It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2010
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My first puzzle in seven years. Hope you enjoy.

One afternoon, a woman went skydiving with a friend for the first time. It so happened that her instructor was the least experienced skydiver of all the instructors, and she left that day with a broken arm. However, if she had gone with any other instructor, she would have died. Explain.
Vadron (Vadron)
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Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2010
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 5:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would she have died by accident? Murder? Something else?

If she had not gone skydiving at all, would she have died?
Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 5:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the instructor so bad, that she received an injury during on-the-ground preparation?


And if she did not brake her arm and did go up, she would have died because:

all other skydivers died on that day ( as in plain crash )?

her parachute would not have opened?

she reported wrong weight?


Is friend with whom she went relevant?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1803
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool, another skydiving puzzle!

Was it a tandem skydive? Did her friend do a tandem skydive? Did her friend do a skydive at all? Was her friend the instructor? Did she actually do the skydive? Did she break the arm: before getting onto the plane? In the plane? During exit? In freefall? Under the canopy? During landing? Afterwards? Was there a freefall collision? Or canopy collision? Was her broken arm the fault of the instructor? Did someone else die at the drop zone that day? Or get injured? Did her friend die? Or get injured?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 11
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vadron:

Would she have died by accident? Yes Murder? no Something else?
If she had not gone skydiving at all, would she have died? No (or at least probably not!)

Emeraldink:

Was the instructor so bad, that she received an injury during on-the-ground preparation? no, but good thought!
And if she did not brake her arm and did go up, she would have died because:
all other skydivers died on that day ( as in plain crash )? no
her parachute would not have opened? no
she reported wrong weight? no
Is friend with whom she went relevant? no, not really, just adding to the narrative (:

Galfisk:

Was it a tandem skydive? Yes
Did her friend do a tandem skydive? Irr.
Did her friend do a skydive at all? Irr.
Was her friend the instructor? No
Did she actually do the skydive? Yes
Did she break the arm: before getting onto the plane? In the plane? During exit? In freefall? Under the canopy? During landing? This one Afterwards?
Was there a freefall collision? No Or canopy collision? No
Was her broken arm the fault of the instructor? Yes Did someone else die at the drop zone that day? No Or get injured? mm...possibly, not particularly relevant
Did her friend die? Or get injured? No to these
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1805
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If she had gone with a good instructor, would she have died during the landing? Did the bad instructor land: in the wrong place? In a bad manner, such as falling on top of her? Did he not land into the wind? Is the wind relevant? Did something bad happen in the designated landing area, but because she had a bad instructor, they didn't land in that area? Did a plane crash there?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If she had gone with a good instructor, would she have died during the landing? er...Yope
Did the bad instructor land: in the wrong place? No In a bad manner, such as falling on top of her? yes-ish
Did he not land into the wind? no, he landed into the wind
Is the wind relevant? no
Did something bad happen in the designated landing area, but because she had a bad instructor, they didn't land in that area? no
Did a plane crash there? no

Also, there's a FA lurking somewhere in these waters...
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1807
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there something wrong with the equipment? Is the FA that the instructor was bad? When he was only less experienced? Did something unexpected happen? Which a more experienced instructor would have: made worse? Overlooked? Was the parachute packed correctly? Did the jump go as planned until: exit? Freefall? Drogue deployment? Main deployment? Did they have to cut away and deploy the reserve? Was she not sitting correctly in the harness during landing? Was there something wrong with the harness? Did she have a relevant physical disability? Did she panic? Did she screw up the landing for the instructor?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there something wrong with the equipment? no
Is the FA that the instructor was bad? Yes
When he was only less experienced? Correct
Did something unexpected happen? Yes
Which a more experienced instructor would have: made worse? Overlooked? Yes-ish to these. I wouldn't say it as a universal statement to apply to all instructors with more experience...
Was the parachute packed correctly? Yes
Did the jump go as planned until: exit? Freefall? Somewhere around exit and free fall
Drogue deployment? Main deployment?
Did they have to cut away and deploy the reserve? Yes
Was she not sitting correctly in the harness during landing? Probably not
Was there something wrong with the harness? no
Did she have a relevant physical disability? Yes, with a slight ish
Did she panic? No
Did she screw up the landing for the instructor? Only in an indirect sense
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1810
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the missing a limb? Did she have limited or no movement in a limb? Was she unusually: short? Tall? Fat? Skinny? Did being less experienced mean the TI (tandem instructor) was more meticulous? Was the main deployed when the pair was in an unsuitable position? Is the type of malfunction that caused the cutaway relevant? If so, was it a spinning malfunction? (Happened at my DZ a couple of weeks ago, the landing was without incident) Would a more experienced TI also have cut away? Would that TI have died along with her? Would she have fallen out of the harness?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 18
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the missing a limb? Did she have limited or no movement in a limb? Was she unusually: short? Tall? Fat? Skinny? None of these, which is where the "ish" comes into play.
Did being less experienced mean the TI (tandem instructor) was more meticulous? Perhaps, but irrelevant
Was the main deployed when the pair was in an unsuitable position? No
Is the type of malfunction that caused the cutaway relevant? Interestingly enough, FA
If so, was it a spinning malfunction? no(Happened at my DZ a couple of weeks ago, the landing was without incident)
Would a more experienced TI also have cut away? Well...for the sake of my puzzle, probably not ;)
Would that TI have died along with her? NO!
Would she have fallen out of the harness? no

I gather you are an experienced skydiver! I just went for the first time last week. Once this puzzle is solved, you will have to let me know if you think this is plausible or not. (:
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1811
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the TI cut away a perfectly good canopy? Would she have fallen to her death? Or been crushed? Or strangled? Would the harness, with her in it, have come loose from the TI? Did the TI do anything wrong before the landing?

Awesome! I'm not that experienced, ~140 jumps, B license...but I'm jumping every weekend(:
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 21
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the TI cut away a perfectly good canopy? YES!
Would she have fallen to her death? Or been crushed? Or strangled? No to these
Would the harness, with her in it, have come loose from the TI? No
Did the TI do anything wrong before the landing? Depends on what you mean by "wrong"...he did break the skydiving rules...
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1813
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would a more experienced TI not have cut away? Is the reason why he cut away important? Did he think he was having a malfunction? Did she do something to make him think cutting away was necessary? Are other skydivers relevant? If she had jumped with a more experienced TI, would they have: hit something? Had a malfunction at low altitude? Landed badly? Is a medical condition relevant? Would another person in her place also have died?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 23
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would a more experienced TI not have cut away? Most of them wouldn't have, I would guess.
Is the reason why he cut away important? Very
Did he think he was having a malfunction? I assume you mean an equipment malfunction? No.
Did she do something to make him think cutting away was necessary? Yes-ish
Are other skydivers relevant? No
If she had jumped with a more experienced TI, would they have: hit something? Had a malfunction at low altitude? Landed badly? None of these
Is a medical condition relevant? Yes, very
Would another person in her place also have died? Only if they had the same condition...
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Her medical condition is relevant, I suppose.

Did it involve breathing difficulties?

Is the height they were jumping from relevant?

Did the instructor cut away the main canopy because he saw/perceived something on her that made him think this would be the best solution?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 26
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Her medical condition is relevant, I suppose. Correct
Did it involve breathing difficulties? No
Is the height they were jumping from relevant? hm, to a degree, yes
Did the instructor cut away the main canopy because he saw/perceived something on her that made him think this would be the best solution? yes!
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 2248
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not know a lot about skydiving - does "cut off" mean you really physically cut off the canopy?

Did he do it to accelerate the fall?

Was her disease of a psychological nature? Physical?

Was it a rare one?

Did the instructor have any relevant knowledge of her condition?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 27
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not know a lot about skydiving - does "cut off" mean you really physically cut off the canopy? Yes, generally releasing it anyway
Did he do it to accelerate the fall? YES!
Was her disease of a psychological nature? No
Physical? Yes
Was it a rare one? Not really, no...(specific "disease" she might have had is not really relevant so much as the way in which it manifested itself)
Did the instructor have any relevant knowledge of her condition? YES
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 2249
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the main purpose to be on earth as early as possible?

Was the instructor's lack of experience relevant because it is dangerous to cut off the main canopy and land on the reserve and a more experienced instructor would have been more aware of that?

Would she have died of: suffocation? Heart attack? Caisson disease?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 28
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the main purpose to be on earth as early as possible? YES
Was the instructor's lack of experience relevant because it is dangerous to cut off the main canopy and land on the reserve and a more experienced instructor would have been more aware of that? er...Yope, and FA actually
Would she have died of: suffocation? Heart attack? This is closest Caisson disease?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, she jumps out of the plane with the instructor, and is struck with a heart attack/gets a stroke. The instructor knows she needs help as soon as possible, and if they floated down with the main canopy, it would be late for her. So he opts for the free fall (actually, a HALO jump?) and opens the parachute only in time not to crash into land. Correct?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1815
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he think he needed to get her to the ground as quickly as possible? To get her medical attention? To get her down to normal atmospheric pressure? Did he cut away and pull the reserve low, to get to the ground faster? Would a more experienced TI not have done that, because cutting away a working main is a big NO? Or because diving and/or spiraling would've gotten them to the ground reasonably quickly (and in a much safer way)? Did she: bleed? Fall unconscious? Throw up? Change skin color? Stop breathing?
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that between the two of you, there is enough for a...

************SPOILER**************

The woman may have had the least experienced instructor, but she also had the most experienced in medical knowledge, as he had gone through medical school, and even practiced medicine for a time.

The woman had some form of heart disease (and perhaps didn't realize it). When she and her instructor fell out of the plane, she had a form of heart attack that brought her into cardiac arrest. Sensing a problem, the instructor deployed his main canopy at high altitude and was able to check her carotid pulse, correctly diagnosing cardiac arrest. Knowing that if someone in this condition goes without CPR for five-to-seven minutes, there is little-to-no chance of recovery, he cut his main chute and continued free fall until a dangerously low altitude, where he deployed his reserve chute.

The resulting rough landing broke her arm, but he was able to perform CPR in just enough time to save her life.

The reason the others would not have done this is a combination of more experience diving and less experience medically. They would not have fully recognized the extent of the problem, and would have decided to get her to ground in a safer, more controlled manner (which, unfortunately, would not have been in enough time to save her).


What I don't know, and perhaps Galfisk can enlighten me, is what the other options are for a very quick descent. I didn't know any, so this is what I came up with. The other instructors may well know a lot more about that kind of emergency situation than I imagined.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 1818
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Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle!
This does seem plausible to me, especially if the TI pulled high in the first place - then there probably would've been no other way to get down in time. I know TIs have risked, and even sacrificed, their own lives to save that of a passenger, and if there was no risk they would collide with other jumpers on the way down I think cutting away would be an option.
Then again I'm no TI - but I know they have procedures for all sorts of emergencies.
I've heard that there's actually an entry in their procedures that says "hit or bite pax" - for when the passenger is panicking and preventing the TI from pulling the chute or similar.
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2010
Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, my TI said, "If you grab my arms, I'm going to bite you." It was pretty funny.

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