| Author | Message | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3817 Registered: 5-2003 |
Anne, an atheist and an American citizen, is a staunch supporter of the separation of church and state which prevents government from promoting or supporting any sectarian views. Yet she sometimes wishes that the US had been officially established as a Christian country. Explain. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5569 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she wish this because of a political issue? A religious issue? Other religions relevant? Is school relevant (that's where the issue of church/state seems to pop up the most)? Tea Party (the Republican branch, not the even in Boston in 1773) relevant? Constitution? Declaration of Independence? Language relevant? Literature? Science relevant? Evolution? Intelligent Design movement? Expansion of the country relevant? Wars? Territories? Is any current ideological conflict relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3819 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she wish this because of a political issue? Partly these. A religious issue? Primarily these. Other religions relevant? No. Is school relevant (that's where the issue of church/state seems to pop up the most)? No. Tea Party (the Republican branch, not the even in Boston in 1773) relevant? Could be. Constitution? Yes. Declaration of Independence? No. Language relevant? No. Literature? No. Science relevant? Commonly. Evolution? Good choice. Intelligent Design movement? Another good choice. Expansion of the country relevant? No. Wars? Yes. Territories? No. Is any current ideological conflict relevant? No specific issue is relevant -- any or all will do, so long as religion is involved. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 504 Registered: 9-2009 |
If the US had been established as a Christian country, would this have been beneficial to her? To some other person? To one group of persons? More than one? To the US as a whole? To the world? Christian - any specific denomination relevant? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 2928 Registered: 1-2007 |
Are church holidays relevant? This reads like a Nimue puzzle don't you think | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3823 Registered: 5-2003 |
It is rather Nimue-esque, isn't it? If the US had been established as a Christian country, would this have been beneficial to her? To some other person? To one group of persons? More than one? This. To the US as a whole? To the world? Depending on your politics, both. Christian - any specific denomination relevant? No. Are church holidays relevant? Again, possibly. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5624 Registered: 4-2010 |
More than one group of persons? Or more than one person? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3826 Registered: 5-2003 |
More than one group of persons? This. Or more than one person? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5630 Registered: 4-2010 |
The groups of persons: do they have anything to do with religion? Gender? Race? Sexual orientation? Political party? Charity? Service relevant? Missionaries relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3829 Registered: 5-2003 |
The groups of persons: do they have anything to do with religion? Possibly. Gender? Yes. Race? Possibly. Sexual orientation? Yes. Political party? Possibly. Charity? Irr. Service relevant? Hm? Elaborate, please. Missionaries relevant? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5637 Registered: 4-2010 |
Service: community service? Profession? The groups of persons: Males who are homosexual? Heterosexual? Females who are homosexual? Heterosexual? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3830 Registered: 5-2003 |
Service: community service? Profession? A few of these come to mind. The groups of persons: Males who are homosexual? This. Heterosexual? Females who are homosexual? Heterosexual? Both. | ||
| Woodworm (Woodworm)
New member Username: Woodworm Post Number: 2045 Registered: 3-2006 |
Are we talking about married people? Is Ann married? Engaged? Divorced? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3834 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are we talking about married people? Another relevant issue. Is Ann married? Irr. Engaged? Divorced? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5648 Registered: 4-2010 |
Gay marriage controversy relevant? Prop 8? Relevant whether Anne is pro- or anti-gay-marriage? | ||
| Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
New member Username: Gregoryuconn Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2010 |
Does she have an ex-boyfriend who left her because he was gay and wanted to get a boyfriend? And if America had been established as Christian, perhaps he wouldn't be gay and wouldn't have broken her heart? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3837 Registered: 5-2003 |
Gay marriage controversy relevant? Again, relevant. Prop 8? Likely relevant. Relevant whether Anne is pro- or anti-gay-marriage? Yes, she's pro. Does she have an ex-boyfriend who left her because he was gay and wanted to get a boyfriend? No. And if America had been established as Christian, perhaps he wouldn't be gay and wouldn't have broken her heart? No. It's not nearly this specific. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5655 Registered: 4-2010 |
Protests relevant? Does she wish America had been established as Christian simply because the controversy would not be raging? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3840 Registered: 5-2003 |
Protests relevant? No. Does she wish America had been established as Christian simply because the controversy would not be raging? That's part of the reason. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5670 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she hope that as a consequence of America being established Christian, the country would not be entirely (or close to it) pro-gay-marriage? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5671 Registered: 4-2010 |
EPIC BLOOPER: That should say "WOULD BE entirely," not "WOULD NOT BE entirely." Major blooper on my part - sorry. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3843 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she hope that as a consequence of America being established Christian, the country would be entirely (or close to it) pro-gay-marriage? Yes. Also pro-evolution, and pro-a-number-of-other-things. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5678 Registered: 4-2010 |
Wild stab: Does she hope Christianity would have been abolished? Or otherwise "removed from power," so to say? Shown to be false? That way, people would "come to their senses" and embrace evolution, homosexuality, etc.? If so, I heartily disagree with her. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3849 Registered: 5-2003 |
Wild stab: Does she hope Christianity would have been abolished? No. Or otherwise "removed from power," so to say? Yope, OTRT. Shown to be false? No. That way, people would "come to their senses" Not necessarily. and embrace evolution, homosexuality, etc.? OTRT. They wouldn't have to embrace it. If so, I heartily disagree with her. That's your right. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5725 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she simply wish more people would be accepting of homosexuality etc? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3852 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she simply wish more people would be accepting of homosexuality etc? Among other things. How would the United States being established as a Xian country factor into that? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5736 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would Christianity naturally become more liberal as time went on? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3856 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would Christianity naturally become more liberal as time went on? Yope. OTRT. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5740 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she wish America were still a Christian country? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3858 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she wish America were still a Christian country? It never has been (at least not officially), so it can't be still. Rephrase? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5746 Registered: 4-2010 |
Rephrasing: Does she wish, in this alternate America (which had been established Christian), that it were still Christian today? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3861 Registered: 5-2003 |
Rephrasing: Does she wish, in this alternate America (which had been established Christian), that it were still Christian today? She doesn't wish it, but assumes it. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5753 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she think that if America had been established Christian, people would be more accepting of other viewpoints than they are now? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3864 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she think that if America had been established Christian, people would be more accepting of other viewpoints than they are now? Perhaps. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5757 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is any other religion relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3865 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is any other religion relevant? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5763 Registered: 4-2010 |
So she wishes the US had been established Christian...because people would be more accepting of her viewpoints? Of her beliefs? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3866 Registered: 5-2003 |
So she wishes the US had been established Christian...because people would be more accepting of her viewpoints? Yes. Of her beliefs? Yes. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5772 Registered: 4-2010 |
So, acceptance is key...is there more to find out? If so (and I'm sure there is), what? In this alternate US, does she wish there would be more Christians than in actuality? Fewer? Irrel? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3869 Registered: 5-2003 |
So, acceptance is key...is there more to find out? If so (and I'm sure there is), what? Why does Anne think that a "more Christian" country would be more accepting of her views? In this alternate US, does she wish there would be more Christians than in actuality? Fewer? Irrel? This. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5867 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the Bible relevant? A specific verse? Teaching? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3871 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is the Bible relevant? A specific verse? Teaching? None of these. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5883 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she think that because of the Christians she knows? Are they very liberal? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3874 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she think that because of the Christians she knows? No. Are they very liberal? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5895 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is a specific branch of Christianity relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3876 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is a specific branch of Christianity relevant? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5903 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she have a scrund about Christianity? About Christians? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3877 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she have a scrund about Christianity? No. About Christians? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 3350 Registered: 9-2009 |
Does she think that if church and state were not separated, the state would've forced/influenced the church, and therefore many people, into being more "pro-a-number-of-things" so to speak? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3879 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she think that if church and state were not separated, the state would've forced/influenced the church, and therefore many people, into being more "pro-a-number-of-things" so to speak? No. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 5916 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she wish that the church would have more influence? Less? The state would have more? Less? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3880 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she wish that the church would have more influence? Less? This. The state would have more? Less? Irr. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6018 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the thought that if America had been established Christian, there would be more of a "natural" separation between church and state? That the church would keep to itself? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3883 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is the thought that if America had been established Christian, there would be more of a "natural" separation between church and state? That the church would keep to itself? You're on the right track, but it's not the church or the state you should be thinking about. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6025 Registered: 4-2010 |
Should the focus be more on Christians? On the government? On the population? Would the thought be that Christians would keep more to themselves? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3886 Registered: 5-2003 |
Should the focus be more on Christians? On the government? On the population? This. Would the thought be that Christians would keep more to themselves? No. | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 3376 Registered: 9-2009 |
Are other religions relevant? foreign policy as a result of being a Christian state? Domestic policy? Religiousness of the population? Different Christian denominations relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3893 Registered: 5-2003 |
Are other religions relevant? foreign policy as a result of being a Christian state? Domestic policy? Religiousness of the population? This, none of the others. Different Christian denominations relevant? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6048 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the population be more religious than now? Less? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3894 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would the population be more religious than now? Less? This. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6131 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is she hoping that the churches would keep to themselves? Would not try to convert others? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3896 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is she hoping that the churches would keep to themselves? Not this. Would not try to convert others? Or this. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6151 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her theory that the government would be less invasive of the rights of individuals? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3897 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is her theory that the government would be less invasive of the rights of individuals? No. Judging from the last few questions, I think you have an FA. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6182 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the thought that the Christian populace would not try to force others to accept their beliefs? Would ignore those who disagreed with them? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3898 Registered: 5-2003 |
Is the thought that the Christian populace would not try to force others to accept their beliefs? Yes. Would ignore those who disagreed with them? Quite possibly. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6188 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does she think this is because they would be free to practice their beliefs without scorn? So they would be less..."condescending" isn't the word I'm looking for...toward others? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3899 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she think this is because they would be free to practice their beliefs without scorn? No. So they would be less..."condescending" isn't the word I'm looking for...toward others? OTRT. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3900 Registered: 5-2003 |
Does she think this is because they would be free to practice their beliefs without scorn? No. So they would be less..."condescending" isn't the word I'm looking for...toward others? OTRT. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6244 Registered: 4-2010 |
That the Christian populace would be more open and accepting of outside beliefs? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3907 Registered: 5-2003 |
That the Christian populace would be more open and accepting of outside beliefs? Yes. Why? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6292 Registered: 4-2010 |
In a desire to improve themselves and/or their behavior? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3911 Registered: 5-2003 |
In a desire to improve themselves and/or their behavior? No. There's been a trace of false assumption in most of your questions thus far... | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6356 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would they be more accepting of other beliefs in hopes of attracting more converts? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1855 Registered: 7-2009 |
When the government mandates something, it tends to be less popular. Relevant? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3913 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would they be more accepting of other beliefs in hopes of attracting more converts? No. Definite false assumption. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6360 Registered: 4-2010 |
You missed Noel's question.... | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3914 Registered: 5-2003 |
When the government mandates something, it tends to be less popular. Relevant? Yes! | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6371 Registered: 4-2010 |
So her hope is that by having the country be established Christian, there would be fewer Christians because of that very government support? That it? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3916 Registered: 5-2003 |
So her hope is that by having the country be established Christian, there would be fewer Christians Not necessarily. because of that very government support? That it? Hint: Look at other countries where this has happened. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6381 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the hope be that the government would influence the church? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3917 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would the hope be that the government would influence the church? No. This is very close to solution, as of Noel's post. Religion, strictly, is not less popular, but... Hint: The answer is counter-intuitive. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6428 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the idea be that a government-mandated Christian church would attract fewer followers? Would be more open to outside beliefs so as to support the government? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3919 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would the idea be that a government-mandated Christian church would attract fewer followers? No. The physical church sitting on the street might attract fewer followers, but why would there be fewer people going to church? Hint: It's not because there are fewer Christians. Would be more open to outside beliefs so as to support the government? No. Remember, a government with an official religion is thus generally not opposed to the church. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6447 Registered: 4-2010 |
Because fewer Christians would want to go to a government-run church? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3921 Registered: 5-2003 |
Because fewer Christians would want to go to a government-run church? No. People's attitudes toward the government have nothing to do with the solution. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6470 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the government be more accepting of other ideas so as to attract people to the church? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1898 Registered: 7-2009 |
Let's see...things that are mandated by the government are generally less popular. Because people don't like being forced to do things? Because they admire rebels? Because they respect individual freedoms? It seems to me that in a country with a government religion, followers tend to assume that everyone actually believes in that religion. And so then they don't feel the need to try to convert them? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3925 Registered: 5-2003 |
Would the government be more accepting of other ideas so as to attract people to the church? No. Let's see...things that are mandated by the government are generally less popular. Because people don't like being forced to do things? Because they admire rebels? Because they respect individual freedoms? None of these, and an FA on the first one. It seems to me that in a country with a government religion, followers tend to assume that everyone actually believes in that religion. And so then they don't feel the need to try to convert them? Not this either. | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1903 Registered: 7-2009 |
Hmm, if it is government mandated, people don't have to put as much thought into choosing their religion? So then maybe they wouldn't be so attached to it? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3930 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hmm, if it is government mandated, people don't have to put as much thought into choosing their religion? So then maybe they wouldn't be so attached to it? Circling around relevance here... | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 3456 Registered: 9-2009 |
Relevant: Church attendance? Percentage of population that is Christian? Denominations? Conversion of non/other-believers? Fundamentalism? Other religions? I know we have/had a state church here in Sweden, and we also have one of the lowest rates of Christianity in Europe. Relevant? Does she think if the US had been a Christian country, the same thing would've happened there? (I don't know how or why it happened though) | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3938 Registered: 5-2003 |
Relevant: Church attendance? As a symptom of something else. Percentage of population that is Christian? No. Denominations? No. Conversion of non/other-believers? No. Fundamentalism? Its lack. Other religions? No. I know we have/had a state church here in Sweden, and we also have one of the lowest rates of Christianity in Europe. Relevant? Very much so. My quibbling in previous answers has been over the fact that pretty much everyone is still nominally Christian. Does she think if the US had been a Christian country, the same thing would've happened there? Yes. (I don't know how or why it happened though) That's the puzzle; atheists have a pretty good idea why, though I don't know how much it's backed up by research. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 6488 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would people only go to church to support the government? Because the government would require it? But they wouldn't actually be believers? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 3473 Registered: 9-2009 |
Hm, I'm an atheist by birth, pretty much... My grandpa was a priest, and his kids got so fed up with religion that out of five, one switched churches and two became non-believers. Is this relevant? People being fed up by religion? Or seeing it as mundane, and therefore not putting much thought into it? Which leads to it not being a central part of people's lives, and therefore eventually not as widespread? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 657 Registered: 9-2009 |
Are atheists under the impression that Christians, by associating their faith with the 'official' one, tend to be less religious, by transferring their resentiments towards the state also to the Church? That religion is no more than politics? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 3941 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hm, I'm an atheist by birth, pretty much... My grandpa was a priest, and his kids got so fed up with religion that out of five, one switched churches and two became non-believers. Is this relevant? No, because... People being fed up by religion? ...this does not apply. Or seeing it as mundane, and therefore not putting much thought into it? Yes! Which leads to it not being a central part of people's lives, and therefore eventually not as widespread? Yes! ************** Spoiler ************** The experience of European countries with official faiths has turned out to be that they gradually lose faith, quite possibly because it is so pervasive that citizens simply don't take it seriously anymore. Whereas the United States, which even has a clause in its Constitution stating that no religious test may be set for members of government, is the most actively religious country in the Western world. Whenever people claim that Christianity is under threat in the USA, I just laugh. |
