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Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3268
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's a deciliter shorter.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 466
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about a comparison between two volumes of something? Liquid, solid, gaseous?

Or is "it" shorter than a reference value? Than the needed quantity to achieve smth?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3269
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about a comparison between two volumes of something? Sort of. Liquid, solid, gaseous? Irr.

Or is "it" shorter than a reference value? Yope. Than the needed quantity to achieve smth? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5780
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deciliter: unit of volume? Would the puzzle work if you'd said "it's ten liters shorter"? "It's 10 liters shorter"?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3272
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deciliter: unit of volume? Yes. Would the puzzle work if you'd said "it's ten liters shorter"? "It's 10 liters shorter"? I could've said either of those, if the volume in question had been ten liters.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 467
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Skydiving relevant, btw? :-)

It: a tangible object? A quantity?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3277
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Skydiving relevant, btw? :-) No.

It: a tangible object? This. A quantity?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 470
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Object size: bigger than a tennis ball? than a basket ball? than a chair? than a car?

Solid or hollow?

Object material: metal? plastic? paper? wood? stone?

How many relevant objects? 1? 2? More?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3280
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Object size: bigger than a tennis ball? Yes to this, no to the rest. than a basket ball? than a chair? than a car?

Solid or hollow? Hollow(ish).

Object material: metal? plastic? paper? wood? stone? Metal.

How many relevant objects? 1? 2? More? 1.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 471
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a can? Or a container of any sort?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3282
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a can? No, but close. Or a container of any sort? Yes.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 473
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant which liquid or substance the container is meant to contain? Is it a beverage? Is it fuel?
Is it fine to think about it as a general container, or is it better to find out the exact type of container that it is?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3284
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant which liquid or substance the container is meant to contain? Yesish. Is it a beverage? Possibly. Is it fuel? No.
Is it fine to think about it as a general container, or is it better to find out the exact type of container that it is? It helps to find its purpose.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5790
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the container a bottle? Jar? Glass? Barrel?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the container a bottle? Jar? Glass? Barrel? Neither.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5799
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the container a tank of some sort? Is it made of wood? Plastic? Glass? Metal? Ceramic? Clay? Is it a mug?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the container a tank of some sort? No. Is it made of wood? Plastic? Glass? Metal? Ceramic? Clay? Metal. Is it a mug? No, but close.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do "equal and opposite reactions" have anything to do with it?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3298
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do "equal and opposite reactions" have anything to do with it? Yes indeed.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Post Number: 379
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." So Newton's Laws of Motion relevant, I take it. Just that one, or the others too? (Although the others have rather slipped my mind.)
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3301
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." So Newton's Laws of Motion relevant, I take it. Just that one, or the others too? (Although the others have rather slipped my mind.)
The second law is involved as well (F = ma, or force = mass*acceleration)
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Post Number: 380
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, thank you, Galfisk. Hmm...So...because it's smaller, it can't go as fast? Whatever the 'it' that's a deciliter shorter is?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3304
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, thank you, Galfisk. You're welcome. (Thank you, Wikipedia;) Hmm...So...because it's smaller, it can't go as fast? Whatever the 'it' that's a deciliter shorter is? This is incorrect/OTWT.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Post Number: 382
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Drat...I hate being OTWT...I think I'll wait for a while and ask questions again when things have cleared up a bit.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with pressure? A Pitot tube of some sort? Is this at least OTRT?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with pressure? Yope. A Pitot tube of some sort? No. Is this at least OTRT? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A Thermos? Temperature relevant? Heat? Cold?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A Thermos? No. Temperature relevant? Indirectly. Heat? this. Cold?
Hint: This object was not used as intended. Separating questions about the intended and the actual use will help.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5811
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the object intended to hold liquid? Something hot? Cold? A drink? Is the object used to hold liquid? Something hot? Cold? A drink? Does the object break over the course of the puzzle?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the object intended to hold liquid? Yes. Something hot? Cold? A drink? Could be either. Is the object used to hold liquid? Yes. Something hot? Briefly. Cold? A drink? No. Does the object break over the course of the puzzle? Yes, good question.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5824
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it break because the liquid poured into it is too hot? Is the metal object cold when the hot thing is poured into it? Causing the metal to rapidly expand? And crack? Or shatter?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3310
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it break because the liquid poured into it is too hot? No. Is the metal object cold when the hot thing is poured into it? FA. Causing the metal to rapidly expand? And crack? Or shatter? Neither of the above.
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5830
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the hot thing poured into the metal object? Is the metal object ever cold? Hot? Does it break because of heat? Cold? Being dropped? Smashed?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the hot thing poured into the metal object? No. Is the metal object ever cold? Hot? Assume it stays near room temperature. Does it break because of heat? Cold? Being dropped? Smashed? This is closest, but not accurate.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the metal object a can?
And is it the metal object that "breaks"? Does it actually get crushed? Bent?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the metal object a can? No.
And is it the metal object that "breaks"? Yes. Does it actually get crushed? Partially. Bent? Crushed is more accurate.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This reminds me of an experiment in which a small amount of water is put into a metal soda can, then the can is placed over a flame, allowing the water inside to heat to the point of boiling. Then, quickly, the can is removed from the heat, turned upside down and lowered into cold water. As a result, the heat inside the can and the cold water meeting it cause the outside (room) pressure to crush the can - is any of the science involved in this experiment relevant?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This reminds me of an experiment in which a small amount of water is put into a metal soda can, then the can is placed over a flame, allowing the water inside to heat to the point of boiling. Then, quickly, the can is removed from the heat, turned upside down and lowered into cold water. As a result, the heat inside the can and the cold water meeting it cause the outside (room) pressure to crush the can - is any of the science involved in this experiment relevant? Gas, pressure, heat, and the inertia of a liquid are all relevant. Vacuum and condensation are not relevant.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the liquid boiled? In the metal thing? A pan? Or pot? Is the object conical? Cylindrical? Spherical?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the liquid boiled? No. In the metal thing? Yes. A pan? Or pot? Is the object conical? Cylindrical? Spherical? Conical with a flat bottom. It's a one liter kitchen measuring cup made from stainless steel.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because of the breakage, does the 1-liter cup now only hold 9/10 of a liter? Does the top of the cup break? Is the liquid in the cup for a long time? Is the liquid especially hot? Cold? Frozen?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because of the breakage, does the 1-liter cup now only hold 9/10 of a liter? Indeed. Does the top of the cup break? No. Is the liquid in the cup for a long time? No. Is the liquid especially hot? No, not the liquid but... Cold? Frozen?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the cup especially hot? Is there now a hole in the cup?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the cup especially hot? No. Is there now a hole in the cup? Assume no.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hint: find out what produced the force necessary to damage the steel cup.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 9:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Damn, I'm working with pressure, temperature, vacuum and condensation the whole day (working on some sterilization measurements...) and now I have to cope with them also on LTPF! :-P

So let me try a short recap, which should make things clearer at least for me...
We have a 1-liter metal cup, which is used to hold an unidentified liquid. As a result of this operation, the cup is damaged, and at the end of the story its volume is reduced to 0,9 litres. All correct?

Is the cup damaged because of: a pressure? a force? an abrupt temperature change? a phase change of the substance which it holds? Any corrosive substances relevant?
Is the liquid substance poured into the cup? Or is the cup "drowned" into the liquid?
Whenever the cup and the liquid are in contact, is the liquid temperature very high? Above 100C? 200C? More?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Damn, I'm working with pressure, temperature, vacuum and condensation the whole day (working on some sterilization measurements...) and now I have to cope with them also on LTPF! :-P To me, they are more of a hobby (especially the pressure and temperature part), so I have nothing against them ;)

So let me try a short recap, which should make things clearer at least for me...
We have a 1-liter metal cup, which is used to hold an unidentified liquid. Correct, though a crucial detail is missing here. As a result of this operation, Not as a result of holding the liquid, explore the cup is damaged, and at the end of the story its volume is reduced to 0,9 litres. All correct? Correct.

Is the cup damaged because of: a pressure? a force? an abrupt temperature change? a phase change of the substance which it holds? Pressure, force, abrupt temperature and phase change are all involved. Any corrosive substances relevant? No.
Is the liquid substance poured into the cup? This. Or is the cup "drowned" into the liquid?
Whenever the cup and the liquid are in contact, is the liquid temperature very high? Above 100C? 200C? More? The liquid is on fire, which is peripherally relevant. But the same thing would've happened to the cup, had the liquid been cold water.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The crucial missing detail, does it concern: the nature of the substance? (Is is some alcoholic substance btw?) Its physical phase? The way is it poured into the cup? How much time is it held into the cup? Or is there any other object or substance relevant here?

The involved phase change: liquid -> gaseous? gaseous -> liquid? other?

Is the cup covered and sealed in any way and at any moment? (I cannot imagine a pressure change otherwise...)

Is the cup damaged: as soon as the liquid is poured? After a certain time, but while still holding the liquid? After the liquid has been removed from it?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The crucial missing detail, does it concern: the nature of the substance? Not the substance, see below. (Is is some alcoholic substance btw?) Yes, it's denatured ethanol. Its physical phase? The way is it poured into the cup? How much time is it held into the cup? Or is there any other object or substance relevant here? Yes indeed.

The involved phase change: liquid -> gaseous? gaseous -> liquid? other? This.

Is the cup covered and sealed in any way and at any moment? No. (I cannot imagine a pressure change otherwise...) Remember Newton.

Is the cup damaged: as soon as the liquid is poured? After a certain time, but while still holding the liquid? After the liquid has been removed from it? It's damaged in the process of removing the liquid.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there another object involved? Another substance? Solid, liquid, gaseous?
What is relevant about this other object/substance? Its nature (if it is a substance)? Its material (if it is an object)? Its temperature? Weight? Volume?
Is it mixed/poured/drowned in the denatured ethanol while in the cup?

Wild guess, are you using ethanol to clean something?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there another object involved? Yes. Another substance? This also. Solid, This. liquid, gaseous? Eventually.
What is relevant about this other object/substance? Its nature (if it is a substance)? This. Its material (if it is an object)? It's better to figure out the substance. Its temperature? Something temperature-related happens to it. Weight? Volume?
Is it mixed/poured/drowned in the denatured ethanol while in the cup? No.

Wild guess, are you using ethanol to clean something? No.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a metal? a plastic? a powder? Chemical reactions involved?

Is this substance in contact with the ethanol at any moment? Is it in contact with the cup at any moment?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Other substance: dry ice?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a metal? a plastic? a powder? This. Chemical reactions involved? Yes.

Is this substance in contact with the ethanol at any moment? Yes. Is it in contact with the cup at any moment? Yes.

Other substance: dry ice? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the substance intended to cause a reaction? With the ethanol? Is the ethanol set on fire? Is anything set on fire? Does the ethanol explode? Is the powder edible?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3337
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the substance intended to cause a reaction? Yes. With the ethanol? No. Is the ethanol set on fire? Yes. Is anything set on fire? Yes. Does the ethanol explode? Yesish. Is the powder edible? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5908
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the fire what breaks the measuring cup? Is the substance intended to react with the metal cup?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3340
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the fire what breaks the measuring cup? The ethanol fire does not, but... Is the substance intended to react with the metal cup? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5911
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does something else catch on fire? The powder? Is the powder a ground-up metal?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 479
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is there another relevant substance which is intended to react with the powder? Does the reaction take place inside the cup? While the cup is filled with ethanol?

Does this reaction generate a force which damages the cup? Is the force due to a sudden pressure increase, which is in turn due to a phase change caused by the chemical reaction?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3343
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does something else catch on fire? The powder? Yes to both. Is the powder a ground-up metal? No.

So is there another relevant substance which is intended to react with the powder? No, the powder reacts with itself. Does the reaction take place inside the cup? While the cup is filled with ethanol? yes to both.

Does this reaction generate a force which damages the cup? Is the force due to a sudden pressure increase, which is in turn due to a phase change caused by the chemical reaction? Yes to all! Getting close now.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Username: Mattiel

Post Number: 480
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the reaction simply caused by the fact that the powder temperature increases? If so, the on-fire ethanol has the only function to heat up the powder?
Does the powder undergo a solid-gaseous phase change (a sort of explosion)?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3348
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the reaction simply caused by the fact that the powder temperature increases? Yes. If so, the on-fire ethanol has the only function to heat up the powder? No.
Does the powder undergo a solid-gaseous phase change (a sort of explosion)? Yes, it explodes violently.
Still to find out: what happened exactly, and what was I trying to accomplish by that? (It was a success by the way, except for the damage to the measuring cup.)
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5922
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to pull a MythBusters and just blow something up? Or were you planning to do something with the powder and ethanol later? Were you trying to increase fuel efficiency in something?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3358
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to pull a MythBusters and just blow something up? No, but OTRT. I did not plan on damaging anything, though I knew there was a possibility. Mythbusters have done stuff very similar to this. Or were you planning to do something with the powder and ethanol later? No. Were you trying to increase fuel efficiency in something? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5936
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to create something with the powder and ethanol? Did you expect the explosion?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3365
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to create something with the powder and ethanol? Did you expect the explosion? Yes to both.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5947
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the powder typically flammable?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Post Number: 3367
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the powder typically flammable? Yes.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5956
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it phosphorus?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3370
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No. It's powerful black powder.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 5967
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gunpowder?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3371
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gunpowder? Yes. Now what could I hope to accomplish by setting of an explosive charge in a cup of burning ethanol?
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 6035
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to accomplish something related to an engine? Were you trying to build an engine?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3383
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to accomplish something related to an engine? Were you trying to build an engine? No to both. Simpler.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Username: Mattiel

Post Number: 482
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you doing something related to your job? To a hobby of yours? Just for fun? Did you want to obtain a final product (ex. "modified ethanol"), or a final "condition" (ex. broken cup :-P)?
Was your objective related to: the gunpowder? The ethanol? The cup? Something else?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3385
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you doing something related to your job? To a hobby of yours? This. Just for fun? this too. Did you want to obtain a final product (ex. "modified ethanol"), or a final "condition" (ex. broken cup :-P)? I wanted (and succeeded) in obtaining a temporary "condition" (there's a better word for it though).
Was your objective related to: the gunpowder? The ethanol? This, mainly. The powder and the cup were tools. The cup? Something else?
Hint: often, gasoline is used instead of ethanol.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 6044
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to create an explosive? Fireworks?
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3391
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you trying to create an explosive? Fireworks?
close enough.
***SPOILER***
I am a hobby pyrotecnician, and I'm planning on doing a small show at the yearly skydiving club party. One thing I want to do is launch colored liquid fireballs, using methanol and different flame coloring salts. I had tested a few two deciliter ones, but wanted to make a bigger one. A skydiving friend suggested I use a conical mortar, so as to better launch the fuel into the air.
So I put a black powder charge in the bottom of the measuring cup, and put some duct tape in between to protect it. For safety, I went to an abandoned beach and buried deep in the sand, before filling it with ethanol (no reason to waste methanol on a test), lighting it and the fuse, and running.
KABOOM!
A great fireball emanated from the sand, and the blast echoed around the lake for several seconds.
It was awesome.
Unfortunately for the measuring cup, it being conical meant that the equal and opposite force pushed the walls straight downwards. The bottom deciliter of the cup crumpled, and the flat bottom got bent. Cue maniacal laughter when I discovered the state of the cup... It's now a deciliter shorter, and I keep it as a trophy/reminder.
If I do end up launching fireballs at the party, they will either be smaller, or launched from sturdy, cylindrical tubes where the force of the launch will be more evenly spread instead of all concentrated in a small area.
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 6051
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man...that sounds like fun. I'm jealous.
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Username: Ixoye724

Post Number: 2782
Registered: 1-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool puzzle, very educational, and I recommend that further testing of this be done at aforementioned abandoned beach as opposed to the vicinity of any area frequented by humans (except yourself, of course).
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Username: Kayleetonkslupin

Post Number: 472
Registered: 9-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I feel sorry for the poor measuring cup...
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3393
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Indeed so. The only way to be able to keep doing my hobby in the long run, is to keep it low key and not disturb or annoy people.
I hope to eventually be able to get a manufacturing license, and start making some serious stuff.
This is my best homemade piece so far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23fPOfrMTMU
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 6059
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow...now I'm even more jealous.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Username: Mattiel

Post Number: 484
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow! Nice job, and nice puzzle!
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Username: Galfisk

Post Number: 3428
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks everyone.
Exhibit A: http://pyrobin.com/files/dscf2656.jpg (big image)

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