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Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1133
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two people lie dead. One of them should have listened to his father.
Tortiekitten (Tortiekitten)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

people = H? A? M?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the "one of them" the same as the "his"? In other words, is it "Person A should have listened to his own father"? Or is it, "Person A should have listened to Person B's father"?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the father one of the dead? Did he try to warn the other one not to do something?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

True story? FYOI? FSEI?

Should the "one" have listened to his father: seconds before? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1134
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

people = H? A? M? both are human, both are adults, one is male. The gender of the other is laeftr. And a belated welcome to the forum, Tortiekitten, together with congratulations on a most impressive first puzzle.

Is the "one of them" the same as the "his"? In other words, is it "Person A should have listened to his own father"? Or is it, "Person A should have listened to Person B's father"? let, as the geeks say, c1 and c2 be corpses, and let F be the father of c1. Then c1 should have listened to F.

Attempts will be made to rename c1, c2 and F using for the purpose such terms as Matt, Pat and the Cat in the Hat. Whereas woubit will endeavour to keep up with such terminology, he begs to state that it always confuses the life out of him, and if he fails, he craves your indulgence.


Is the father one of the dead? no Did he try to warn the other one not to do something? yes, indeed
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1135
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

True story? no FYOI? no FSEI? yes

Should the "one" have listened to his father: seconds before? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades? any and all would suffice, but the time period involved was probably some small number of weeks
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did either of the dead people die of natural causes? If not, [LTPF list of sudden unnatural deaths]? Were they murdered? Did they commit suicide? Were they executed? Killed accidentally?

c1 - may we call him Bishop (seeing as a white bishop starts on square c1)? And c2 - how about Cicero (solely because I am studying Latin whilst working on lateral puzzles right now)? May we name the father Harlan?

Did Harlan try to warn Bishop against doing something dangerous? Stupid?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For anyone wondering "why did you call him Harlan", it is because there is a character in the eighth Nancy Drew game ("The Haunted Carousel") called Harlan Bishop - I have no idea how I started thinking about Nancy Drew games. Although I tend to do that semi-often.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1136
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 1:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did either of the dead people die of natural causes? no If not, [LTPF list of sudden unnatural deaths]? the precise circumstances of their deaths are not to be found even in that most comprehensive of lists, but for present purposes you may take it that they both suffered fatal punctures to vital organs Were they murdered? no Did they commit suicide? no Were they executed? no Killed accidentally? yes

c1 - may we call him Bishop (seeing as a white bishop starts on square c1)? And c2 - how about Cicero (solely because I am studying Latin whilst working on lateral puzzles right now)? May we name the father Harlan? be it so, but see warning above

Did Harlan try to warn Bishop against doing something dangerous? yes, indeed Stupid? likewise
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 8434
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 2:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the punctures caused by the same object? Broken ribs?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On second thoughts, perhaps "Cicero" is not the most appropriate of names for c2, who is after all female. I might diffidently suggest Caitlin, which is a girl's name and is vaguely indicated by Cicero's Quo usque tandem abutere Catilina patentia nostra? which I trust Balin can easily translate. If not, he ought to be doing his homework instead of visiting the LTPF, but...
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the punctures caused by the same object? yes Broken ribs? no
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 8:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet?

Is this story to be found in a novel? Other piece of literature? A movie? An opera?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they gored by an animal?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fall onto something?

Did bishop and his father have a good relationship? Did bishop ignore some bit of advise his father had given him or did he just not listen to him generally? If so is he the only one to have received this advise? Did anyone else listen to Dad and as a result did not die? Had Caitlin listened to Harlan? Is she had would she be still alive also?

Is dad's profession relevant? Would Bishop have listened to his father in a one to one capacity? or does the dad speak publically? preach? lecture? appear on TV or other media?

Did any other involved party survive this incident?
Firesparx (Firesparx)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did 'Caitlin' have anything to do with what Harlan was trying to warn Bishop about (iow, was it a 'daddy warned me about girls like you' type of thing?)
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When you say that they were killed accidently, does that mean that there was another perosn involved?

Did that person stab them? Because (s)he confused Bishop and Caitlin with another couple (s)he actually intended to kill? Or did (s)he think that whatever object (s)he used on them wasn't harmful? Had Bishop and Caitlin known that person before? Had Harlan?

Was the object something that's meant for stabbing someone/something, such as a knife? Or a dagger? Or a spear?

Or did that person indirectly kill them? By making them go somewhere? Or by (accidently) pushing them off something, making them fall onto the pointy object(s)?

Or did the two of them die trying to perform some sort of stunt? Or trying to commit some crime? Or otherwise messing with someone?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this story to be found in a novel? Other piece of literature? this one A movie? An opera?

Were they gored by an animal? no

Did they fall onto something? no

Did bishop and his father have a good relationship? not great, but not atypical Did bishop ignore some bit of advise his father had given him or did he just not listen to him generally? both are applicable If so is he the only one to have received this advise? yes Did anyone else listen to Dad and as a result did not die? no Had Caitlin listened to Harlan? no If she had would she be still alive also? N/A

Is dad's profession relevant? no, but... Would Bishop have listened to his father in a one to one capacity? yes or does the dad speak publicly? preach? lecture? appear on TV or other media? none of those

Did any other involved party survive this incident? no

Did 'Caitlin' have anything to do with what Harlan was trying to warn Bishop about (iow, was it a 'daddy warned me about girls like you' type of thing?) not really, but this is not a million miles from the right forest

When you say that they were killed accidentally, does that mean that there was another person involved? no

Did that person stab them? Because (s)he confused Bishop and Caitlin with another couple (s)he actually intended to kill? Or did (s)he think that whatever object (s)he used on them wasn't harmful? Had Bishop and Caitlin known that person before? Had Harlan? no other person was involved

Was the object something that's meant for stabbing someone/something, such as a knife? Or a dagger? Or a spear? no

Or did that person indirectly kill them? By making them go somewhere? Or by (accidentally) pushing them off something, making them fall onto the pointy object(s)? N/A, see above

Or did the two of them die trying to perform some sort of stunt? Or trying to commit some crime? Or otherwise messing with someone? not this kind of thing
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 3:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the puncture wounds from a sharp object? An object that is typically considered blunt?

Did Harlan ever speak to Caitlin? Did he say something relevant to her?

At the time the wounds were made, was the object in motion? Were Bishop and Caitlin in motion? Could it be said that they were impaled on the object?

Were they both wounded at the same time? Was one impaled first, then the other? Did the object completely penetrate one of them and continue on into the other?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the puncture wounds from a sharp object? yes An object that is typically considered blunt? no

Did Harlan ever speak to Caitlin? no Did he say something relevant to her? N/A

At the time the wounds were made, was the object in motion? no Were Bishop and Caitlin in motion? not to any great extent, but they were not motionless Could it be said that they were impaled on the object? yes, but...

Were they both wounded at the same time? yes Was one impaled first, then the other? no Did the object completely penetrate one of them and continue on into the other? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2010 - 3:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they wounded with a multi-pronged object? Like a pitchfork? An antler?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they wounded with a multi-pronged object? yes, in a manner of speaking Like a pitchfork? An antler? but nothing like either of these
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a tangible object ? or something like the horns of a dilemma?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I understand that this is not the story intended, but does your puzzle has any resemblance to the one of Francesca da Rimini? Were the two dead people lovers? Is it to be found in a work of poetry? A play? A short story? The relevant piece of literature was written in: English? French? Italian? Spanish? Russian?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, forgot the classics. Please add Greek and Latin to the above enumeration.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a tangible object ? yes or something like the horns of a dilemma? no

I understand that this is not the story intended, but does your puzzle has any resemblance to the one of Francesca da Rimini? no Were the two dead people lovers? yes Is it to be found in a work of poetry? this one, but I am reluctant to continue to answer questions whose object is merely to trace the work from which the story is taken - that is not very lateral thinking, after all A play? A short story? The relevant piece of literature was written in: English? French? Italian? Spanish? Russian? German, and that will do for this line of questioning, I think
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The two lovers - were they married? To each other?

Is either of their professions relevant? The father's profession?

Is either of their ages relevant? Are they young? Can they be considered "star-crossed"? Did the father object to the romance? Did he even know about it? Did he support it?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The two lovers - were they married? no To each other? no

Is either of their professions relevant? very much so The father's profession? rather less so

Is either of their ages relevant? not really Are they young? but yes Can they be considered "star-crossed"? no Did the father object to the romance? yes Did he even know about it? yes Did he support it? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant profession - the man's? The woman's? Both?

The object which killed them - is it related to the important profession?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 6:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant profession - the man's? this one The woman's? Both?

The object which killed them - is it related to the important profession? yes
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 8:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they killed by arrows? Was the man an archer?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they accidentally fall into a trap for animals?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they killed by arrows? no Was the man an archer? no

Did they accidentally fall into a trap for animals? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fall onto the object? Into it?

Would the LTPF list of professions be allowed here? If so, insert said list?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they fall onto the object? no Into it? no

Would the LTPF list of professions be allowed here? If so, insert said list? Bishop is an artist
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Bishop paint? Draw? Sculpt? Is his medium relevant?
Firesparx (Firesparx)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Object internal (iow, broken ribs through lungs, or something like that?)
Firesparx (Firesparx)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And if Bishop might've listened to Harlan one-on-one, was Caitlin's presence his excuse for not listening?
Firesparx (Firesparx)
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Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 4:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(Sorry for the cannonade, but it wouldnt' let me edit to add questions to the previous posts)

Does the fact that you said 'two people *lie* dead' rather than 'two people *lay* dead' mean anything?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 1:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does Bishop paint? yes Draw? yes Sculpt? this is not recorded Is his medium relevant? yes

Object internal (iow, broken ribs through lungs, or something like that?) not quite like that, no - their deaths are due to an external object

And if Bishop might've listened to Harlan one-on-one, was Caitlin's presence his excuse for not listening? no

Does the fact that you said 'two people *lie* dead' rather than 'two people *lay* dead' mean anything? yes - it means that the two people are at present lying dead on the ground
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 4:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were B+C killed in B's studio (or wherever he worked)? Fatal object - made of metal? Wood? Bone? Plastic? Glass? Concrete? Asphalt? Stone? Rubber? Paper?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Add "canvas" to that list of materials?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were B+C killed in B's studio (or wherever he worked)? no Fatal object - made of metal? no Wood? partly Bone? no Plastic? no Glass? no Concrete? no Asphalt? no Stone? yope Rubber? no Paper? no

Add "canvas" to that list of materials?one? no
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they killed indoors? Outdoors? If only B would have been in the same place at the same time, would he'd been killed? Same question for C? The static object that killed them -- is it man - made?

Was B painting on canvas? On wood? On glass? On walls? Were they killed in the moment where B was working, or his profession is relevant in a different way?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they killed indoors? Outdoors? this one If only B would have been in the same place at the same time, would he'd been killed? I don't understand this - B and C were the two people who were killed Same question for C? same answer The static object that killed them -- is it man - made? yes, but it is not a "static" object - it is movable

Was B painting on canvas? On wood? On glass? On walls? he was not killed while painting, but it is important that he was an artist Were they killed in the moment where B was working, or his profession is relevant in a different way? this one
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was B trying to get inspiration for his work?

If C had not been there, would B still have died? Vice versa?

Was the object made partly of stone? Of a certain type of stone?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was B trying to get inspiration for his work? no

If C had not been there, would B still have died? Vice versa? the presence of both was required for both to die

Was the object made partly of stone? yes Of a certain type of stone? yes
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were B+C killed in a relevant terrain? Forest? Open plain? Body of water? In a ye olde neighborhood?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 9:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were B+C killed in a relevant terrain? no Forest? Open plain? Body of water? In a ye olde neighborhood? this is probably closest, but where they died does not matter very much
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they...um..."euphemisming" when they died? Were they seen by someone before their death? As they were dying?

Fatal object - a statue?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2010 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they...um..."euphemisming" when they died? no, with a trace of ish - euphemisms for what they were doing are no longer required even in polite society Were they seen by someone before their death? no As they were dying? no

Fatal object - a statue? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they killed in the act? While kissing?

Were they killed in a moment of passion (whether physical or not)?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they killed in the act? While kissing? this one, which may render answers to other questions nugatory

Were they killed in a moment of passion (whether physical or not)?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they moving around whilst kissing? Did they fall over? Onto the object?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 2:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they moving around whilst kissing? probably not, else the tragedy might perhaps have been avoided Did they fall over? no Onto the object? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the object fall onto them? Did they move into the object? Was it a case of wrong-place-wrong-time?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the object fall onto them? no Did they move into the object? you could put it that way, yes Was it a case of wrong-place-wrong-time? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had the object been there for a long time? Was B warned to never go near the object? Had H warned B about the object?
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they lean against it when they intended to lean against a wall or something?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had the object been there for a long time? it had not been in the place where it killed them for very long, no Was B warned to never go near the object? no Had H warned B about the object? yes

Did they lean against it when they intended to lean against a wall or something? no
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 4:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what type of stone the object (partially) was? If so, marble? Granite? Something else entirely?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what type of stone the object (partially) was? yes If so, marble? Granite? Something else entirely? this one
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Limestone? Sandstone? Soapstone? Alabaster? Flagstone?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Limestone? Sandstone? Soapstone? Alabaster? Flagstone? none of these - the material is not primarily thought of as a stone, but technically it is one
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A gem? Diamond?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A gem? Diamond? not a gem, nor any other particularly precious stone
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 2:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lava? An igneous rock?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lava? no An igneous rock? no - this is a metamorphic rock. But it will not help you very much to think of it as a "rock" at all, any more than it would help you to think very much of the wood involved as a "tree". Bishop and Caitlin met their deaths by means of a simple, everyday device that was "made of" wood and stone, but it was not some monstrous configuration...
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

slate? marble? quartzite?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oh! slate! I just had an idea...maybe it was a chalkboard, with a wooden frame, and the artist was drawing on it? and it fell?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

slate? marble? quartzite? none of these, though some geologists have conjectured that the "stone" in question first became known to humans through its origins in a quartzite

oh! slate! I just had an idea...maybe it was a chalkboard, with a wooden frame, and the artist was drawing on it? and it fell? a very good idea too. Not right, but it is sound thinking to consider with what implements made of wood and stone an artist might work...
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*duly looks up quartzite on wiki* One of these?
Clay?
Silica?
Iron oxide?
zircon?
rutile?
magnetite?
Fossils?
sand?

Artist's tools...I suppose it depends on what sort of artist we speak of. Was it already deduced? (my brain is rather tired, I fear)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1166
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clay?
Silica?
Iron oxide?
zircon?
rutile?
magnetite?
Fossils?
sand? none of these, but you are over-complicating...

Artist's tools...I suppose it depends on what sort of artist we speak of. indeed Was it already deduced? (my brain is rather tired, I fear) it has been deduced that he was an "artist" of the ordinarily-understood kind. That is, he painted, and of course he drew...
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

would it possibly be graphite? a pencil? graphite and wood! a pencil! *hopes*
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

would it possibly be graphite? a pencil? graphite and wood! a pencil! *hopes* exactly and precisely so - well done
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hurrah! thank you, woubit, I would have been lost for a while longer without the drawing hint, I think...kaylee is a silly kaylee, not figuring it out earlier. then again, woubit puzzles are difficult, which is a good thing. =D

all right, so...they were kissing and somehow a pencil got involved in them dying? were they stabbed with a pencil? many pencils? an overly large pencil such as one may find at fairs as a prize?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1168
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

all right, so...they were kissing and somehow a pencil got involved in them dying? indeed were they stabbed with a pencil? yes many pencils? an overly large pencil such as one may find at fairs as a prize? well, in the account that will be provided as soon as you have the solution - which will not be long now - the pencil is depicted as "overly large". But in fact it was a perfectly ordinary pencil, save for one curious property against which Harlan had frequently warned Bishop.

However...

Unser Bischoff (wie gewöhnlich
Diese jungen Leute sind)
Schlug sein Vaters weise Lehre
Lirum, larum! in den Wind.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it an extremely sharp pencil? an extremely blunt one? one prone to breaking easily?

(And I'm sorry, I can't read German..at least I think that's German)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was it an extremely sharp pencil? yes, but only because it was an extremely hard pencil an extremely blunt one? no one prone to breaking easily? not at all - if it had been prone to breaking in any way, the tragedy would have been avoided

(And I'm sorry, I can't read German..at least I think that's German) that is indeed German, apart from "lirum, larum!" which is Gibberish. It means roughly:

Our Bishop (who was
as young people usually are)
let his father's wise counsel
blow away on the wind.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hate to leave the puzzle here for now, but unfortunately I am a short on sleep kaylee and it is midnight. So only one last question for woubit before seeking my bed...

Was it a 9H pencil, or some other grade on the scales mentioned here?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it a 9H pencil, or some other grade on the scales mentioned ?

The story occurred some time before that standard of grading pencils was adopted. But it was a "Bleistift [literally "lead stick"] Nro. Sieben", one of the hardest and sharpest pencils you could wish to find.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Don't be careless with a pencil or you'll put your eye out?" Although I have no idea how that'd happen while kissing...woubit, do you think you or one of the other moderators could use the powers of modness (which I rather envy) to fix that link? I put the wrong slash on it, and only noticed it now I'm awake enough to. *sighs*
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the pencil being held by one of them? Was it on the ground? On the wall?

Was the pencil ever actually used for writing?

You say it was really large - was it very thick as well? Could it easily be held in the hand?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Don't be careless with a pencil or you'll put your eye out?" Although I have no idea how that'd happen while kissing. nor have I

Was the pencil being held by one of them? no Was it on the ground? no On the wall? on which wall?

Was the pencil ever actually used for writing? no - it was used for drawing

You say it was really large it wasn't - it was drawn that way for comic effect - was it very thick as well? no Could it easily be held in the hand? yes
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thank you, woubit and/or other mods, for fixing the link.

Were they literally killed, or 'killed' in a picture that one of them drew?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were they literally killed, or 'killed' in a picture that one of them drew? they were literally killed - that is to say, they both ended up literally dead
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 4:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why, on the invisible wall, of course; the one that showed up because I forgot they were outdoors.

Did the pencil fall from the sky? Was it stuck in something (besides B+C, of course)?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the pencil fall from the sky? no Was it stuck in something (besides B+C, of course)? no - it was exactly where you would expect an artist's pencil to be
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On an easel? In someone's hand?

In the hand of the person drawing B+C? And he stabbed them with his pencil?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On an easel? In someone's hand? well, that is where you might expect a pencil to be while an artist was actually using it. But...

In the hand of the person drawing B+C? And he stabbed them with his pencil? ...nothing like this. Perhaps a short recap is in order.

For the purposes of this puzzle, a man named Harlan has a son Bishop, who has a girlfriend Caitlin. They are real people (of course, they are not actually real people, for the whole puzzle is a fiction, but...)

Bishop is an artist - that is, one who makes his living by drawing and painting. Or at least, he used to make his living that way; regrettably he and Caitlin are both at present lying dead upon the ground.

They met their accidental deaths by means of a pencil, and they did so whilst kissing one another. This pencil is a particularly hard and sharp specimen of its kind; it was carried by Bishop because it was an instrument of his trade.

Harlan had previously warned Bishop against certain practices. One of these relates to the pencil and to Bishop's habit of... but that is for you to discover. But Bishop had ignored his father's advice both with respect to the pencil and with respect to dalliance with girls.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bishop carrying the pencil at the time of death? In his pocket? Pointy side up? Or out?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bishop carrying the pencil at the time of death? yes In his pocket? yes, indeed Pointy side up? yope Or out? and likewise yope
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*eyes narrow suspiciously, having been mulling this idea over since last night* Were both ends sharpened? So one end was in his pocket, and one out? And while he was kissing his beloved, the pencil arranged itself in his pocket so that one end stabbed through his shirt and got him, and the other her?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And furthermore, did his father advise him never to carry sharp or pointy objects in his pocket?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*eyes narrow suspiciously, having been mulling this idea over since last night* Were both ends sharpened? So one end was in his pocket, and one out? And while he was kissing his beloved, the pencil arranged itself in his pocket so that one end stabbed through his shirt and got him, and the other her?

And furthermore, did his father advise him never to carry sharp or pointy objects in his pocket?

exactly and precisely so - well done.

***** SPOILER *****

This is the sad story of Pedrillo as written by the German poet Wilhelm Busch.

For those who do not read German, a brief synopsis follows:

In the city of Madrid (hence the rather obscure reference to the "Real" in the title, though this will be comprehensible only to followers of Association Football) there live a painter named Murillo (or Harlan) and his son Pedrillo (or Bishop).

This Murillo is an artist (it is likely that Busch had the actual Bartolomé Esteban Murillo in mind), and his son Pedrillo follows in his father's profession. Indeed, it seems likely that he will surpass his parent, for

Keiner hatte wie Pedrillo
Dieses lange Lockenspiel,
Keiner trug Hispaniens Mantel
Mit so vielem Kunstgefühl


No one but Pedrillo wore his
Hair so long around his brain,
No one as an artist swore his
Heart so faithfully to Spain.


But Pedrillo, as all sons of famous and obscure fathers alike, had a habit of which Murillo did not approve. In particular, he used extremely hard pencils that he sharpened at both ends ("weil er dieses praktisch fand", or because it saved him the bother of turning the pencil the right way round when he wanted to draw something). His father remonstrated in vain:

Denn ich glaube, daß du hierin
Sehr auf falschem Wege bist,
Weil es erstens sehr gefährlich,
Zweitens auch nicht nötig ist.


For I think you should be wary,
Or you'll come in time to rue it -
First, because it's very scary;
Second, there's no need to do it.


Heedless, Pedrillo establishes a non-Platonic relationship with one of his models, a tailor's daughter. The rest has been established by the diligent and highly commendable efforts of Balin, Kaylee and others - Pedrillo and Caitlin become involved in extra-curricular activities, whereupon the two-pointed Bleistift Nro. 7 in Pedrillo's jacket pocket stabs them simultaneously and fatally through the heart. Pictures of the woeful (though of course anatomically impossible) conclusion to the tale can be found in the link to which I have referred.

Als Murillo dies vernommen,
Sprach er sanft und weinte sehr:
Ach! o Jüngling, spitze niemals
Einen harten Bleistift mehr,

Führe Mädchen nie spazieren,
Denn dies Beispiel zeigt es klar,
Daß es erstens sehr gefährlich,
Zweitens auch nicht nötig war.


When Murillo saw the scene, he
Gently spoke while weeping sore -
"O my child", he murmured keenly,
"Sharpen pencils nevermore,

And of walks with girls be wary -
This example should be heeded:
First, that it was very scary;
Second, that it wasn't needed."


Let none of this discourage you should you incline either to art or to the vigorous practice of heterosexuality. Or at least, let it not discourage you very much.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 1:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, it should at least discourage us from carrying very sharp pointy objects in our pocket - this takes "running with scissors" a wee bit further.
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2010 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*openmouthed* I solved a woubit puzzle?!?! Well, certainly not alone, but...I can't believe it! yay!

kaylee submits that woubit's puzzle was very awesome and difficult and that it is unbelievable that she put the final piece in place, so much so that she would not believe it unless she saw it, and she did see it because woubit said it right here.

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