| Author | Message | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10321 Registered: 4-2010 |
The second in my "Spin-offs of Whirligig's Puzzles" series: Twelve people gather. A few years later, one of them dies. Shortly after, another one dies. This continues, so that eventually, as a result of the original death, only one of them dies from natural causes. | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2180 Registered: 7-2009 |
Your puzzle statement seems to say that 11 died from "unnatural" causes. Correct? Unnatural causes = murder? accidents? Natural causes = illness? old age? heart attack/stroke/similar sudden medical ailment? Did the 12 people know each other before they gathered? Did they keep in touch after they gathered? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4320 Registered: 5-2003 |
Any relevance to Ten Little Indians, by Agatha Christie? Are they gathered together the second time? Do they all die of the same cause? | ||
| Whirligig (Whirligig)
New member Username: Whirligig Post Number: 641 Registered: 8-2010 |
Will I receive credit and, say, 20% of the profits? If not, expect a C&D by tomorrow morning. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10326 Registered: 4-2010 |
Your puzzle statement seems to say that 11 died from "unnatural" causes. Correct? Yes Unnatural causes = murder? This for all 11 accidents? Natural causes = illness? old age? heart attack/stroke/similar sudden medical ailment? Irrel and unknown Did the 12 people know each other before they gathered? No Did they keep in touch after they gathered? Assume no Any relevance to Ten Little Indians, by Agatha Christie? No, but what an awesome book! Are they gathered together the second time? No Do they all die of the same cause? DOYD of "cause" - they were all murdered, but they all were killed in different manners. Will I receive credit and, say, 20% of the profits? If not, expect a C&D by tomorrow morning. This puzzle is strictly not-for-profit | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2181 Registered: 7-2009 |
Were they murdered because of the meeting? Because of something else that was the reason for the meeting? Were they murdered by the one who died of natural causes? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10354 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were they murdered because of the meeting? Yope Because of something else that was the reason for the meeting? Yopish Were they murdered by the one who died of natural causes? No | ||
| Eli (Eli)
New member Username: Eli Post Number: 1770 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gender relevant here? If the one dying of natural causes had not died, would he/she too have been murdered? Era or location relevant? Is this a true story? FSEI? FYOI? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10396 Registered: 4-2010 |
Gender relevant here? No If the one dying of natural causes FA had not died, would he/she too have been murdered? Yes Era or location relevant? Yope to location Is this a true story? FSEI? This - from a TV show FYOI? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2192 Registered: 7-2009 |
Relevant Location = geographical location? a certain type of location (such as a type of building)? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10416 Registered: 4-2010 |
Relevant Location = geographical location? a certain type of location (such as a type of building)? This | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2194 Registered: 7-2009 |
A specific type of building? If so, office? government? residence? hospital? attraction (e.g. a museum)? recreational? education? Secret lair =)? military? A specific type of room within a building? A specific type of outdoor location? If so, a park? a swimming pool? Another outdoor recreational facility? A hiking trail? A sports field? A street? A sidewalk? The roof of a building? A scenic overlook? A type of natural feature? An airport? A bus stop? A train stop? A campus? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10425 Registered: 4-2010 |
A specific type of building? Yes If so, office? government? This, I think residence? hospital? attraction (e.g. a museum)? recreational? education? Secret lair =)? military? A specific type of room within a building? This too A specific type of outdoor location? If so, a park? a swimming pool? Another outdoor recreational facility? A hiking trail? A sports field? A street? A sidewalk? The roof of a building? A scenic overlook? A type of natural feature? An airport? A bus stop? A train stop? A campus? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 2337 Registered: 9-2010 |
Government...twelve people...The Supreme Court? Any court? A jury? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 2338 Registered: 9-2010 |
And, of course, there's only nine on the Supreme Court...at least here. I knew that...lol...I was thinking of a jury. Any courthouse would be considered 'a government building', I suppose. Is that it? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10429 Registered: 4-2010 |
Government...twelve people...The Supreme Court? No, but... Any court? ...yes, a courthouse, and... A jury? Yes! | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2197 Registered: 7-2009 |
Is the murderer the defendant in the trial? Someone affiliated with the defendant? Is it the victim? Someone affiliated with the victim? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10487 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the murderer the defendant in the trial? Yes, so none of the rest Someone affiliated with the defendant? Is it the victim? Someone affiliated with the victim? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2203 Registered: 7-2009 |
Was the defendant found guilty? Did he/she serve time? Escape from jail? Get out at the end of his/her sentence? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10498 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was the defendant found guilty? Yesish - it was a civil trial, but the defendant was found at fault Did he/she serve time? No Escape from jail? Get out at the end of his/her sentence? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 2377 Registered: 9-2010 |
what's a civil trial? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10502 Registered: 4-2010 |
what's a civil trial? It means there was no criminal act (murder, theft, etc), but one person/group can still be at fault for, say, injury. By the way, the verdict for the trial is irrelevant. One thing that happened during the trial is. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2011 |
Relevant what was the subject of trial? If so: money loss? injury? damage of property? contract not fulfilled? Other? Did the murders occured because of something that happened during trial? If so: Because of what someone said? Did? Because of some evidence in the trial? | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 3172 Registered: 1-2007 |
Lots of thoughts on this so forgive sledgehammer approach.. Is the first of the deaths the one by natural causes? Was anyone else present in court subsequently murdered or just the jury members? Did the jury agree on the verdict unanimously ? or by a majority? of 11 to 1? If so was the natural causes death the 1? Was the person who died by natural causes the jury foreman? relevant? Anything to do with answers to questions that the jury members gave during jury selection? Did any jury member fall asleep during the proceedings? You say the verdict was not relevant .... if they had found in favour of the murderer they would still have been murdered yes? Was the case racially charged or controversial in some other way? Was it one person suing another or was this a class action of some sort? Was the murderer found by the jury to be negligent in some way? Did his actions(the ones he was being sued for) cause any deaths? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10545 Registered: 4-2010 |
Relevant what was the subject of trial? No If so: money loss? injury? damage of property? contract not fulfilled? Other? Did the murders occured because of something that happened during trial? Yesish If so: Because of what someone said? No Did? Yes Because of some evidence in the trial? Yope And welcome to the forum! Lots of thoughts on this so forgive sledgehammer approach.. Is the first of the deaths the one by natural causes? No Was anyone else present in court No subsequently No murdered YES or just the jury members? Did the jury agree on the verdict unanimously ?Assume yes but irrel or by a majority? of 11 to 1? If so was the natural causes death the 1? Was the person who died by natural causes the jury foreman? No - as I recall it was Juror #12. relevant? Yope Anything to do with answers to questions that the jury members gave during jury selection? No Did any jury member fall asleep during the proceedings? No You say the verdict was not relevant .... if they had found in favour of the murderer they would still have been murdered yes? Yes Was the case racially charged or controversial in some other way? No Was it one person suing another This or was this a class action of some sort? Was the murderer found by the jury to be negligent in some way? Yes but irrel Did his actions(the ones he was being sued for) cause any deaths? No | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2011 |
Was the action that provoked murders performed by: judge? plaintiff? defendant? jury member? anyone from public? witness? Was the action that provoked murders normal in the civil trials? (I mean whether it was something that normally happens in court) or it was rather someting unexpected, extraordinary? The murders occured after the trial, right? Or maybe prior to the trial? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10549 Registered: 4-2010 |
Was the action that provoked murders performed by: judge? plaintiff? defendant? jury member? This (that is, the murders of the jury) anyone from public? witness? Was the action that provoked murders normal in the civil trials? Yope (I mean whether it was something that normally happens in court) or it was rather someting unexpected, extraordinary? Noish The murders occured after the trial, right? Of the jury, yes. Or maybe prior to the trial? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2011 |
Ok, so there was an ordinary trial, with ordinary jury and one of those jury members did something during this trial, that resulted in 11 subsequent murders of the jury members, is that correct? Was the jury member who performed this action also murderer or maybe that was the one who died naturally? Was the jury member's action good for murderer? Or bad? Were there any previous murder(s) of any other people involved? If so, was the trial somehow connected with those murders (this murder)? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2210 Registered: 7-2009 |
Did the action that provoked murders relate to: evidence in the trial? something else said or seen during the trial? a bribe? any other type of illegal contact between the jurors and someone trying to influence the trial? Does it have anything to do with the way the jurors looked at the defendant? Reacted to him/her in some way? Other murder victim(s): lawyer? judge? witness? victim? bailiff? other courtroom staff? audience member? law enforcement? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10557 Registered: 4-2010 |
Ok, so there was an ordinary trial, with ordinary jury and one of those jury members did something during this trial, Yes and... that resulted in 11 subsequent murders of the jury members, is that correct? Yes Was the jury member who performed this action also murderer or maybe that was the one who died naturally? Died naturally, but the puzzle would still work if he had been murdered Was the jury member's action good for murderer? Or bad? This Were there any previous murder(s) of any other people involved? YES (just one) If so, was the trial somehow connected with those murders (this murder)? Yope Did the action that provoked murders relate to: evidence in the trial? No something else said or seen during the trial? Yesish/Yope a bribe? No, but... any other type of illegal contact Yope between the jurors Yope and someone trying to influence the trial? No Does it have anything to do with the way the jurors looked at the defendant? No Reacted to him/her in some way? No Other murder victim(s): lawyer? judge? witness? victim? bailiff? other courtroom staff? audience member? law enforcement? None of these | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2011 |
Maybe the evidence in the civil trial could proove that the defendant was guilty of murder, maybe still not discovered? So he(she) had to eliminate jury members before they work it out? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10565 Registered: 4-2010 |
Maybe the evidence in the civil trial No could proove that the defendant was guilty of murder, Yesish maybe still not discovered? No... So he(she) had to eliminate jury members Yes before they work it out? Noish | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2011 |
Is it relevant that first murder of the jury member occured few years after the trial? How much time elapsed between the first murder (not the jury member) and the trial? hours? days? months? years? 1? 3? 5? 10? Is this relevant at all? Jury members knew (or even had opportunity to know) about the very first murder? Did the defendant think they had that knowledge? Anything else (than murders) illegal/immoral happened? Were jury members also guilty of something or were they just innocent victims? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10571 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is it relevant that first murder of the jury member occured few years after the trial? Yes How much time elapsed between the first murder (not the jury member) and the trial? hours? days? months? years? 1? 3? 5? 10? Assume 2-5 years Is this relevant at all? Yes Jury members knew (or even had opportunity to know) about the very first murder? One of them did Did the defendant think they had that knowledge? Yesish Anything else (than murders) illegal/immoral happened? Yes Were jury members also guilty of something One of them was or were they just innocent victims? The rest of them were | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2011 |
The action that caused the 11 murders was performed by the one jury member, who knew about initial murder and was not innocent, correct? That one jury member helped the defendant with the initial murder? Or his deed was of minor category? Was the guilt of jury member connected with the initial murder or with the trial? Did something else relevant happen between initial murder and the trial? Between trial and the 11 murders? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10577 Registered: 4-2010 |
The action that caused the 11 murders was performed by the one jury member, who knew about initial murder and was not innocent, correct? Yes That one jury member helped the defendant with the initial murder? No Or his deed was of minor category? Comparatively, yes Was the guilt of jury member connected with the initial murder Yes or with the trial? Yope Did something else relevant happen between initial murder and the trial? No Between trial and the 11 murders? Yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2011 |
The reason of 11 murders is: revenge? preventing punishment for initial murder? personal motives? Freeing society from dishonest jury members? Other? The action that caused 11 murders was performed when: opening the trial, hearing witnesses, hearing parties, looking on material evidence, plaintiff's last speech, defendant's last speech, voting the verdict, announcing the verdict? Did the murderer/defendant knew which jury member has the knowledge of the initial murder? The details of the initial murder are relevant? I am getting a bit stuck here... maybe a brief summary would help? | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 2214 Registered: 7-2009 |
So one jury member knew about the other murder. Did he discuss it with the other jury members? Did the defendant think that he did? Did he threaten to discuss it with the other jury members? Did one of the jurors know the defendant before the trial? Encounter him after it? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10584 Registered: 4-2010 |
The reason of 11 murders is: revenge? preventing punishment for initial murder? Yesish/Yope personal motives? Freeing society from dishonest jury members? Other? But mainly this The action that caused 11 murders was performed when: opening the trial, hearing witnesses, hearing parties, looking on material evidence, Yope to this, but mostly after the trial. No to rest. plaintiff's last speech, defendant's last speech, voting the verdict, announcing the verdict? Did the murderer/defendant knew which jury member has the knowledge of the initial murder? NO - good q! The details of the initial murder are relevant? No I am getting a bit stuck here... maybe a brief summary would help? Recap at the bottom So one jury member knew about the other murder. Yes Did he discuss it with the other jury members? No Did the defendant think that he did? No Did he threaten to discuss it with the other jury members? No, but getting OTRT Did one of the jurors know the defendant before the trial? No Encounter him after it? Noish RECAP: A man committed a murder a couple of years before being sued in a civil case, which he lost. One of the jurors on the trial found out about the murder during the trial; afterwards, he did something, causing the man to kill 11 of the jurors years later. The man did not know which juror it was that did this, and in the end, the "guilty juror" was the only one who did not end up murdered. You're getting really close to the answer - just a leap or two and you're there. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2011 |
Blackmail involved? Maybe the "knowing juror" worked out the murder while seeing evidence in the civil trial, later blackmailed the murderer/defendant. The murderer knew only that the person blackmailing him must be one of the jury, but he didn't know which one. So he started murdering one after another? Accidentally, the one who blackmailed him was the last one to be murdered and so he had time to die of natural causes. May it be? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10591 Registered: 4-2010 |
Blackmail involved? Maybe the "knowing juror" worked out the murder while seeing evidence in the civil trial, later blackmailed the murderer/defendant. The murderer knew only that the person blackmailing him must be one of the jury, but he didn't know which one. So he started murdering one after another? Accidentally, the one who blackmailed him was the last one to be murdered and so he had time to die of natural causes. May it be? It may and it is... **********SPOILER********** The puzzle is taken from the plot of an episode of Monk - "Mr. Monk and the 12th Man." I will give the summation of the case, rather than the entire plot of the episode (which I recommend, by the way): Our Villain (OV from now on) was sued by a handyman who had fallen off the roof during a renovation job and impaled his head on a pipe, causing mental damage. During the trial, the jurors visited the crime scene. One of them (Juror #12) wandered off, as he was a compulsive thief and gambler, and accidentally discovered the body of OV's first wife, whom he had murdered years before. The juror cut off one of the body's fingers as evidence before returning to the rest of the jury. After the trial, in which OV was found at fault, the juror began to blackmail OV, threatening to go to the police. This went on for six years before Juror #12 began demanding more money. Rather than paying off, OV decided to kill the blackmailer. However, he did not know exactly who the blackmailer was; only that it was one of the jurors. So he began to murder the jurors one by one. It took 11 murders before the case was solved and OV was caught; by chance, Juror #12 was the only one not to be murdered. It is therefore assumed for the purposes of this puzzle that he died of natural causes. Thus endeth my long synopsis. Nice work everyone, notably the diligent Noel and the deductive (or should I say, deTECtive) Redwine. Case closed! Now don't forget about my other two puzzles, as well as my next one, soon at the bottom. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2011 |
Thank you for a wonderful puzzle. This was my first one to start asking questions and I liked it - both the puzzle and asking - very much. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 10595 Registered: 4-2010 |
Glad you enjoyed it! | ||
| Peter365 (Peter365)
New member Username: Peter365 Post Number: 3175 Registered: 1-2007 |
Nice one Balin. |
