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Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 407
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Getting back into the groove and back into my LONG puzzle statements. What? I always turn these into stories.

Sam wanted to meet Elliot, but Elliot did not want to meet Sam. Sam had something for Elliot but Elliot didn’t want it. After they met, Elliot was unhappy and hoped never to meet up with Sam again.

The second time they met, Elliot still didn’t want to meet Sam. For his part, Sam hadn’t tried to meet Elliot again and, in fact, had 11,000 reasons to think he wouldn’t. Once again Sam had something for Elliot, which Elliot still didn’t want.

Yet this time they met, they both laughed and shared quite a merry exchange. However, Elliot still hopes never to meet up with Sam again.

Why?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam: H/A/M?
Elliot: H/A/M?

Are they relatives? Friends? Coworkers? Complete strangers (up until the first time they met, I suppose)? Is Elliot someone famous? Is Sam?

Is Elliot in some sort of trouble with the law? Is Sam? Is Sam involved in law enforcement? is Elliot?

Is this a true story? FYOI? FSEI? Does it take place on Earth?

If so, LTPF lists of relevant:
Centuries?
Decades?
Continents?
Countries?
please.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam: H/A/M?
Elliot: H/A/M? Yes, both are human, adult, males


Are they relatives? Friends? Coworkers? No to these
Complete strangers (up until the first time they met, I suppose)? Yes
Is Elliot someone famous? Is Sam? No to both

Is Elliot in some sort of trouble with the law? Yes
Is Sam? No
Is Sam involved in law enforcement? Yes
is Elliot? No

Is this a true story? FYOI? FSEI? Does it take place on Earth? Based on a true story, set on Earth

If so, LTPF lists of relevant:
Centuries?
Decades?
Continents?
Countries?
please.
*sigh* I never know if this convention of asking actually helps or just makes things harder....

No decades or centuries are terribly relevant. Let's say NOWish.

UK and New Zealand are relevant-ish.


Side note, what's FSEI again?? I recognize the others...
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FSEI = From someone else's imagination (like if you heard it from a friend, read this in a book, saw a tv show or movie about it, etc., as opposed to making it up yourself)
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So would it be correct to say that Sam is a policeman? chief of police? detective?

Is Elliot a thief? burglar? murderer? rapist?
(LTPF lists of relevant law enforcement occupations/crimes if not those, please, no way I'll think of them all...)
Shez (Shez)
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Post Number: 399
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

are the 11,000 reasons money? money that Elliott had given to Sam? that Sam had taken?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleetonkslupin

So would it be correct to say that Sam is a policeman? chief of police? detective? policeman

Is Elliot a thief? burglar? murderer? rapist? None of these

(LTPF lists of relevant law enforcement occupations/crimes if not those, please, no way I'll think of them all...) Let me get back to you on this...

Shez
are the 11,000 reasons money? Nope
money that Elliott had given to Sam? that Sam had taken? And thus Nope
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But Elliot is a criminal, correct? Did he commit a crime against Sam?

On another related track, did Sam commit a crime?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But Elliot is a criminal, correct? DOYD, so Yope
Did he commit a crime against Sam? No

On another related track, did Sam commit a crime? No
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Elliot's job relevant? Is Elliot also a policeman? Does he have a position of high influence? If yes to any of the previous questions, is he corrupt?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Elliot's job relevant? Not at all
Is Elliot also a policeman? No
Does he have a position of high influence? Nope
If yes to any of the previous questions, is he corrupt? And thus, Nope
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam arrest Elliot? Is Elliot's crime high-profile?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sam arrest Elliot? No
Is Elliot's crime high-profile? NO
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is thing 1 the same as thing 2?

thing 1 - tangible? money? news? advice? papers?
thing 2 - tangible? money? news? advice? papers?

was Elliott scared of Sam? did he not want to meet him because it was him or because of the thing he brought? the first time? the second time?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We established that Elliot has a sort of trouble with the law.
Is Elliot a victim of a crime?
Is Elliot sued?
Is Elliot accused of something?
Did Elliot do something immoral, not necessarily a crime?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
is thing 1 the same as thing 2? Yes

thing 1 - tangible? money? news? advice? papers?
thing 2 - tangible? money? news? advice? papers? Both are tangible, papers.

was Elliott scared of Sam? No
did he not want to meet him because it was him Yope…
or because of the thing he brought? But more this.
the first time? the second time? Both times.

Redwine
We established that Elliot has a sort of trouble with the law. Yes
Is Elliot a victim of a crime? No
Is Elliot sued? No
Is Elliot accused of something? No
Did Elliot do something immoral, not necessarily a crime? No

Brief Recap/Refocus:
The confusion about Elliot’s action is coming from these two questions.
Kayleetonkslupin asked: “Is Elliot in some sort of trouble with the law?” Yes
Balin clarified: “But Elliot is a criminal, correct?” DOYD, so Yope
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the first time did Sam bring Elliott papers to sign? to return to him? to summons him? to show evidence of something?

the second time - ditto please.

are the 11000 reasons people? hectares/acres of land?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Has Elliot been accused of a crime?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
the first time did Sam bring Elliott papers to sign? I am not entirely sure…Maybe he signed them?
to return to him? No
to summons him? No
to show evidence of something? No

the second time - ditto please. Exact same answers for second time

are the 11000 reasons people? No
hectares/acres of land? No
is thing 1 the same as thing 2? YES, for all intents and purposes

Balin
Has Elliot been accused of a crime? Yes
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Seeing your comments in the chatroom, can you please insert [LTPF list of possible answers to this puzzle] ? :-)

On a more serious note:


Was Elliot accused of the crime by the state? By a private individual? Relevant? Was he in a trial at the time of the first meeting? The second?

Was he ever convicted? Relevant the time between the first and the second meeting? Did they first meet in London and the second time in Auckland? The other way around?

The two things: were they the same physical things or the same kind of things (as in different books as opposed to the physical same copy of a book)?

The 11000 reasons -- exactly 11000, or just a metaphor for "many reasons"? If the former: 11000 units of currency? 11000 animals?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 449
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Seeing your comments in the chatroom, can you please insert [LTPF list of possible answers to this puzzle] ? :-) Sure thing…OH, wait…

Was Elliot accused of the crime by the state? Yes (if it would be called "the state" in UK and New Zealand)
By a private individual? No
Relevant? Yes, a little
Was he in a trial at the time of the first meeting? The second? No to both

Was he ever convicted? Yes, though this would be an odd way to put it
Relevant the time between the first and the second meeting? Yes, in general (the specific time is not relevant)

Did they first meet in London and the second time in Auckland? Technically it was outside London and then Wellington, but the exact locations aren’t relvant.
The other way around? See above.

The two things: were they the same physical things No, not literally the same one
or the same kind of things Yes
(as in different books as opposed to the physical same copy of a book)? But not in the way you describe in this example

The 11000 reasons -- exactly 11000, Yes, close enough to exact
or just a metaphor for "many reasons"? No
If the former: 11000 units of currency? 11000 animals? No to both
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Conviction -- did he spend time in jail? Was he otherwise punished (through a fine, for example)?

Those who convicted them - legal authorities at the time? In UK? In New Zealand? Was he "convicted" before the first meeting? Before the second? After?

Time between meetings : days? months? years? If the later: 1 year? 20+ years? In between?

11000 reasons: material things?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Conviction -- did he spend time in jail? No
Was he otherwise punished (through a fine, for example)? Yes

Those who convicted them - legal authorities at the time? In UK? In New Zealand? Was he "convicted" before the first meeting? Before the second? After? No to all because of an FA

Time between meetings : days? months? years? If the later: 1 year? 20+ years? In between? 2 years because this is based on a true story. Only relevant that it was a while.

11000 reasons: material things? No
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We seem to be pretty stuck on this criminal / conviction thing. I would really caution using those terms because I don't think most people would in this situation.

Let's put it this way:


HINT: If Elliot would be called a convicted criminal, so would I. And a few others on this forum. So...criminal? Really??
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 11:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So he was in trouble with the law, but not actually a criminal (DOYD), not sued, not accused of anything, correct?

Are we excluding here criminal law? Had he a problem with the civil law (inheritances, etc)? The law of torts? Commerce law? Administrative law? Constitutional law? Private international law?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Elliot's "crime" a common offense? Something like jaywalking?
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 1:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Elliot have some kind of traffic violation? Was he warned by Sam (policeman) for a minor offense?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 3:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rbruma
So he was in trouble with the law, Yes
but not actually a criminal (DOYD), Yes, I don't think any of you would call him a criminal
not sued,Correct
not accused of anything, correct? No accusing needed. He did it.

Are we excluding here criminal law? I was going to say yes, the Internet says I'm wrong. Doens't matter anyway - see the last Qs below.
Had he a problem with the civil law (inheritances, etc)? The law of torts? Commerce law? Administrative law? Constitutional law? Private international law? So no to these

Balin
Was Elliot's "crime" a common offense? YES
Something like jaywalking? Not this...see below

Twilightseeker
Did Elliot have some kind of traffic violation? YES!!

*twirls you* Your fellow puzzlers thank you. A traffic violation is breaking a law (thus committing a crime, thus "criminal" in the technical sense) but who would call someone who did this a criminal? Yes?


Was he warned by Sam (policeman) for a minor offense? No
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 4:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Traffic violation: speeding? Running a red light? Running a stop sign? Not signaling?

Just to make sure - he commits the violation while driving, right? Is he driving a car?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Traffic violation: speeding? This one
Running a red light? Running a stop sign? Not signaling? Not these

Just to make sure - he commits the violation while driving, right? Yep
Is he driving a car? Yes, but Irr.
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the "things" are traffic tickets?

Does the "11,000" refer to a price as well? a fee? a measurement of time? space (distance, width, length, weight, etc.)?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

11000... miles? Like the distance between UK and New Zealand? Did he get the first ticket in one country and the second in the other, and was surprised to see the same police officer in both cases?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker

So the "things" are traffic tickets? Yes

Does the "11,000" refer to a price as well? a fee? a measurement of time? space (distance, width, length, weight, etc.)? Distance

Rbruma
11000... miles? Yes
Like the distance between UK and New Zealand? Yes!
Did he get the first ticket in one country and the second in the other, and was surprised to see the same police officer in both cases? YES!!

That about wraps this one up. Well done, Rbruma! Time for a…
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***************** SPOILER *****************

The first time they met, Sam stopped Elliot outside London and issued him a speeding ticket. Much to both men’s surprise, two years later, Sam again stopped Elliot and gave him a speeding ticket…in Wellington, New Zealand!

Drawn from the news blurb below…

New Zealand traffic officer Andy Flitton cited an unnamed speeder recently for the second time in two years -- 11,000 miles from the spot of the first ticket. Flitton had moved from the U.K. to New Zealand, and unknown to him, the motorist himself had relocated to New Zealand last year. When Flitton stopped the man in Wellington in December 2010, the motorist recognized Flitton as the one who had ticketed him on the A5 highway near London. [Agence France-Presse, 12-7-2010]


Thanks to all who played! Hopefully, it was a fun journey getting to the solution.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since I was a "criminal" myself more than once, I will stay here for a while. Hopefully the officers will relocate, all by themselves :-)

Nice one. Thanks!
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Vesica, I really enjoyed this one
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a great story, and a fun puzzle consequently!
Thanks.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rbruma - Now there's a thought. I wonder if they will all relocate.

Glad you all enjoyed!

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