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Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

American universities are generally hotbeds of liberalism, so you wouldn't expect them to have much in common with conservative American churches. But in one respect, they're similar, and it has nothing to do with sexual harassment. What is it??
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the patriarchal power structure relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 9:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the patriarchal power structure relevant? The what?? Eek!! Sorry, I'm allergic to pc jargon. Now that I've stopped sneezing, the answer is noish.
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

haha, sorry, I wasn't actually trying to be PC. I was just trying to figure out a way to say what I meant without using rambling, explanatory paragraphs to say it. =) Is there another way to say patriarchal? Traditionally, both universities and churches were run by sort of father-figure men, generally promoted from within and working their way up in the organization. (though, of course, all (or maybe most?) Universities and some Churches have moved away from the strict male-authority figures only model today).

In a more general sense: is the somewhat similar authority/promotion structure of clergy/faculty relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oel (Noel)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
haha, sorry, I wasn't actually trying to be PC. I was just trying to figure out a way to say what I meant without using rambling, explanatory paragraphs to say it. =) Is there another way to say patriarchal? Sexist? Traditionally, both universities and churches were run by sort of father-figure men, generally promoted from within and working their way up in the organization. (though, of course, all (or maybe most?) Universities and some Churches have moved away from the strict male-authority figures only model today). this is not relevant in universities but maybe somewhat in churches

In a more general sense: is the somewhat similar authority/promotion structure of clergy/faculty relevant? no
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with historical origins of either? Systems of rules?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 10:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Anything to do with historical origins of either? no Systems of rules? no
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*cough* "Patriarchal" is not inherently sexist any more than "matriarchal" is. Also, I'm surprised at the reaction to "patriarchal power structure". You've always struck me as an academic type and that is certainly the "academic" way to say "Yeah, they're run by men?".

Anything to do with:
Architecture?
Physical buildings?
Locations in towns?
Financial models?
Funding streams?
Grants/Endowments?
Recruitment?
Members/Students?
Materials used?
History of the organizations?
Staff?
Objects owned?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Vesica. Also, something can be sexist without being patriarchal, so of the two, patriarchal is the more specific and descriptive term. "Sexist" would not have provided enough information for you to answer the question I was asking.
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Noel. But I was actually saying that something can be patriarchal without being sexist. At it's base the word simply means "run or controled by men". Historically, the word is used to point out biased and sexist rule or authority by men to the detriment of women.

And now that we've beaten a bare patch of earth where once there was a dead horse, I'll put a sock in it. :D
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 2:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
*cough* "Patriarchal" is not inherently sexist any more than "matriarchal" is. Also, I'm surprised at the reaction to "patriarchal power structure". You've always struck me as an academic type Eeek! I've never been so insulted in my life? When do I use academic jargon? and that is certainly the "academic" way to say "Yeah, they're run by men?". But run by men' sounds much better--less pompous

Anything to do with:
Architecture? no
Physical buildings? no
Locations in towns? no
Financial models? no
Funding streams? no
Grants/Endowments? no
Recruitment? yes
Members/Students? no
Materials used? no
History of the organizations? no, except maybe as a cause
Staff? yes
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ah, "run by men" would have been a good choice of words, had I only thought of it =)

Are the recruits themselves relevant? Their age? Their past experiences? Their physical characteristics?
Is the recruitment process itself relevant (i.e. not who they recruit, but how they recruit them)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ah, "run by men" would have been a good choice of words, had I only thought of it =)

Are the recruits themselves relevant? yes Their age? no Their past experiences? noish Their physical characteristics? yope
Is the recruitment process itself relevant (i.e. not who they recruit, but how they recruit them)? yesish
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Churches and Universities are similar in that they both teach large numbers of people, and they recruit from among those they teach. Relevant?
(e.g. Math departments teach thousands of students every year, but only some of those are encouraged and groomed to become Math PhDs, who can become future faculty (although not necessarily at the same school)).
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Churches and Universities are similar in that they both teach large numbers of people, and they recruit from among those they teach. Relevant? no
(e.g. Math departments teach thousands of students every year, but only some of those are encouraged and groomed to become Math PhDs, who can become future faculty (although not necessarily at the same school)).
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

an academic type Eeek! I've never been so insulted in my life? When do I use academic jargon?
Um, I meant more because you actually work in academia. Also, you are clearly well educated, well spoken (written?), and your puzzles are clever and show a complexity of thought? Seriously, chica - It was a compliment. But nevermind...

Is a personal characteristic of the recruits relevant?
Age at time of recruitment?
Are they all male?
Physical appearance?
Birth order in the family?
Racial/Ethnic origins?
Family culture relevant?
So...
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whoops! That "so..." was supposed to be BEFORE the Qs.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 6:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
an academic type Eeek! I've never been so insulted in my life? When do I use academic jargon?
Um, I meant more because you actually work in academia. Would working in a zoo make me a monkey? Also, you are clearly well educated, well spoken (written?), and your puzzles are clever and show a complexity of thought? Well, it's kind of you to say this. But--from experience--I think of academic types as pompous & status-conscious, I'm afraid.Seriously, chica - It was a compliment. But nevermind...

Is a personal characteristic of the recruits relevant? yes
Age at time of recruitment?b{ no}
Are they all male? For conservative churches, mostly male; for universities, no
Physical appearance? no
Birth order in the family? no
Racial/Ethnic origins? no
Family culture relevant yope
So...
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would working in a zoo make me a monkey? No, but it would make you a zoo employee. GEEZ, can we just drop it?

I get it. To you, the word acadmic is burdened with all sorts of assumptions and connotations and value-judgements. I wasn't using it that way.
Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 2:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with how some universities encourage first-generation degree-seekers (whose parents/grandparents didn't go to college or don't have degrees)? Is this related to the born-again Christian thing?
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does this relate to the way these institutions behave towards the spouses of their employees?

you say recruitment is relevant - correct? do these institutions preferentially recruit a certain group of people? or actively choose not to recruit a certain group of people? or have a particular attitude towards recruiting a specific group of people? and in each case, if so, is this group the spouses of their current employees? or married people?
is the idea relevant that some people say one should preferentially recruit a person who has dependents? or someone whose spouse does not work?
is this about 'finding a job' for a group of people? making a job? expecting people to work for nothing? is it relevant that in some churches there is an expectation that the minister's spouse will help in an unpaid capacity? is this the same for academia?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twilightseeker (Twilightseeker)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 2:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Does it have to do with how some universities encourage first-generation degree-seekers (whose parents/grandparents didn't go to college or don't have degrees)? no Is this related to the born-again Christian thing? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 7:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
does this relate to the way these institutions behave towards the spouses of their employees? yes or yesish

you say recruitment is relevant - correct? yes do these institutions preferentially recruit a certain group of people? yes or actively choose not to recruit a certain group of people?churches, yes; universities, noor have a particular attitude towards recruiting a specific group of people? yes and in each case, if so, is this group the spouses of their current employees? yes for universities; no fir churchesor married people? yes for churches; yesish for universities
is the idea relevant that some people say one should preferentially recruit a person who has dependents? noor someone whose spouse does not work? yesish for churches, no for universities
is this about 'finding a job' for a group of people? yes for universities, no for churches making a job?{ditto}expecting people to work for nothing? yes for churches, no for universities is it relevant that in some churches there is an expectation that the minister's spouse will help in an unpaid capacity? yesis this the same for academia? no
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are spousal hires at universities relevant?
(For those not so familiar with Academia, it is common practice for new faculty hires to try to negotiate some sort of job for their spouses as part of their sign-on packages, if their spouses also have PhDs.)
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 9:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are spousal hires at universities relevant? yes
(For those not so familiar with Academia, it is common practice for new faculty hires to try to negotiate some sort of job for their spouses as part of their sign-on packages, if their spouses also have PhDs.)Let me get n my well-worn soapbox about this corrupt practice with discriminates against academic job applicants who lack the "credentiia;" of a sought-after spouse or romantic partner. Here's a link t my column on that subject: http://www.projo.com/opinion/contributors/content/CT_acker27_05-27-08_BJA7P1R_v25.39c94e1.html
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the thing the churches have in common with the universities just that they take into account the spouse of someone they hire? or give special attention to the spouse? or assess the spouse in some way as part of the recruitment?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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is the thing the churches have in common with the universities just that they take into account the spouse of someone they hire? You're ORT but be more specific or give special attention to the spouse? dittoor assess the spouse in some way as part of the recruitment? noish or yope
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 1:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it that married couples are allowed to work together? Tend to work together? Are expected to work together?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel (Noel)
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Is it that married couples are allowed to work together? no Tend to work together? no Are expected to work together? no
Doriana (Doriana)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant that they prefer to hire married people?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana (Doriana)
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Is it relevant that they prefer to hire married people? yesish

This is close enough for me to declare a

***** SPOILER *************
Conservative churches prefer to hire married pastors (which usually means men), because they think that unmarried men are more likely to be promiscuous & also because they want the unpaid labor of ministers' wives. Universities give preference to spouses or romantic partners of desirable present or prospective faculty partly as a lure to get those faculty & partly because they think it's a feminist, pc thing to do (even when it means favoring the wives of famous men)! In both cases, single people get discriminated against! Please don't discriminate against my new puzzle at the bottom of the page!

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