| Author | Message | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 725 Registered: 6-2003 |
Three men were found dead in the desert, with their seatbelts still fastened. It was a doctor's fault that they died. True story. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 852 Registered: 2-2011 |
were they strapped to their seats? were the seats in a car? a plane? a helicopter? was the doctor the driver/pilot? was the doctor one of the men? did they die as a result of a crash? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 726 Registered: 6-2003 |
Shez were they strapped to their seats? Yes were the seats in a car? No a plane? No a helicopter? No was the doctor the driver/pilot? No was the doctor one of the men? No did they die as a result of a crash? No | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1176 Registered: 8-2001 |
Seats on a bus? A spacecraft? A boat? A throne? Seats on the backs of animals? Like a saddle? The three men - Ages relevant? Professions? Country of origin? Is the doctor one of the men? The men - H? A? Time period relevant? Who they were found by relevant? Were all three found in teh same place? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 727 Registered: 6-2003 |
Vesica Seats on a bus? A spacecraft? This one. A throne? Seats on the backs of animals? Like a saddle? The three men - Ages relevant? Not really. Professions? Yes Country of origin? Not really. Is the doctor one of the men? No The men - H? A? Yes Time period relevant? Only in that it can't be before men started to fly to space. Who they were found by relevant? I'm not sure. Possibly not. Were all three found in the same place? Yes | ||
| Jacek (Jacek)
New member Username: Jacek Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2011 |
I assume they were atronauts? Or space tourists? Whey there actually traveling on a spaceship? Did they die as a result of hitting ground, or were they dead (dying) already? Did they leave the spaceship with their seats while it was going up? down? in orbit? (they would have burned in the atmosphere I guess, but let's try it anyway). Was the doctor together with them onboard the spaceship? Did he accidentaly hit the eject button? Did he do something connected with his medical profession? Did he lead to their deaths intentionally? Accidentally? Hey, was he a medical doctor at all? Or maybe a scientist with a Ph.D? Is the Hungarian language or culture in any way relevant to this puzzle? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 728 Registered: 6-2003 |
Jacek I assume they were astronauts? Yes. Or space tourists? No. Whey there actually traveling on a spaceship? Yes. Did they die as a result of hitting ground, No. or were they dead (dying) already? Yes, they were dead when the spaceship reached the ground. Did they leave the spaceship with their seats while it was going up? down? in orbit? (they would have burned in the atmosphere I guess, but let's try it anyway). They did not leave the spaceship. Was the doctor together with them onboard the spaceship? No. Did he accidentaly hit the eject button? No. Did he do something connected with his medical profession? Yes. Did he lead to their deaths intentionally? No. Accidentally? Yes. Hey, was he a medical doctor at all? Yes. Or maybe a scientist with a Ph.D? Is the Hungarian language or culture in any way relevant to this puzzle? Not as such .. I just was thinking, as occasional puzzle titles in a foreign language have become fashionable here around, why not throwing in a Hungarian one. Nevertheless, the choice of Hungarian was not totally arbitrary, neither was the choice of the title. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 13909 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the spaceship crash in the desert? Did they die in midair? Decompression sickness (the bends) relevant? | ||
| Jacek (Jacek)
New member Username: Jacek Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2011 |
Did the doctor gave them some medicine / drug thak killed them / lead to their deaths? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1090 Registered: 5-2009 |
Was the spacecraft or parts of it (besides the seats and seatbelts) found somewhere near the men? Somewhere else? Was the spaceship, at the time the men were found, intact? Damaged but with its general structure intact? In peaces, but with most of them still recognisable as parts of a spacecraft? Even more thoroughly destroyed? Did the doctor's fatal behaviour occur before the spacecraft started? Was it something the doctor did? Or something he neglected to do? Did those who found the dead astronauts expect to find - any astronauts? - the three astronauts? - any dead astronauts? - the three astronauts, all dead? - the seats? - the astronauts in their seats? Seatbelts fastened? | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1181 Registered: 8-2001 |
Is the title essentially "There is no other place, there is no other time"?? (If it's not, I blame online translators.) Was the most relevant cause of death: Asphixiation? Some sort of poisoning? The effects of rapid decompression? An injury to their hearts? Injury to their lungs? Injury to their brains? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 3844 Registered: 9-2010 |
Was the doctor a medical doctor, or simply a person (H/A/M? H/A/F?) who received a doctorate in something else? *is reminded of Dr. Daniel Jackson* "I'm not that kind of doctor!" *pets and croons over Daniel because he is the pretty* | ||
| Potato (Potato)
New member Username: Potato Post Number: 747 Registered: 7-2010 |
Is a medical checkup before the spacecraft start relevant? Did the doctor declare one (or more) of the men eligible for the space mission when he really wasn't? Due to a medical condition? That made him do/not do/not do properly something when they were out of space? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 729 Registered: 6-2003 |
Balin Did the spaceship crash in the desert? No. Did they die in midair? Yes. Decompression sickness (the bends) relevant? No. Jacek Did the doctor gave them some medicine / drug that killed them / lead to their deaths? No. Markobr Was the spacecraft or parts of it (besides the seats and seatbelts) found somewhere near the men? Yes. Somewhere else? So, no. Was the spaceship, at the time the men were found, intact? Yes. Damaged but with its general structure intact? In pieces, but with most of them still recognisable as parts of a spacecraft? Even more thoroughly destroyed? Did the doctor's fatal behaviour occur before the spacecraft started? Yes. Was it something the doctor did? Yes. Or something he neglected to do? No-ish. Did those who found the dead astronauts expect to find - any astronauts? - the three astronauts? - any dead astronauts? - the three astronauts, all dead? - the seats? - the astronauts in their seats? Seatbelts fastened? The astronauts in their seats, alive, seatbelts fastened. Vesica Is the title essentially "There is no other place, there is no other time"?? Right. (or just "No other place, no other time" .. depends on the context) (If it's not, I blame online translators.) You may just google for the whole phrase to find out more. Was the most relevant cause of death: Asphyxiation? This one. Some sort of poisoning? The effects of rapid decompression? An injury to their hearts? Injury to their lungs? And possibly this, as a consequence. Kaylee kitteh Was the doctor a medical doctor, or simply a person (H/A/M? H/A/F?) who received a doctorate in something else? He was a medical doctor. *is reminded of Dr. Daniel Jackson* "I'm not that kind of doctor!" *pets and croons over Daniel because he is the pretty* Potato Is a medical checkup before the spacecraft start relevant? Yes. Did the doctor declare one (or more) of the men eligible for the space mission when he really wasn't? But no. Due to a medical condition? A certain medical condition is relevant, however. That made him do/not do/not do properly something when they were out of space? No. Injury to their brains? No. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 878 Registered: 2-2011 |
was it his calculations which caused the problem? like, was there something he didn't take into account? | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1101 Registered: 5-2009 |
Asphyxiation: Due to lack of oxygen? Due to the presence of another substance (maybe carbon monoxide?)? Due to paralysis of the respiratory muscles? Is the medical condition one would usually describe as pathological? Who "suffered" of the medical condition - one of the astronauts? Two of them? All of them? The doctor? Someone else? Did the doctor overlook something relevant during the checkup? Mistake it for something else? Came to a correct factual result but gave wrong recommendations about it? Did the spacecraft land more or less as expected? How long did the spacecraft's flight take - seconds? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4756 Registered: 5-2003 |
Did this occur in 1971? If so I know the answer and will watch and enjoy. | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 732 Registered: 6-2003 |
Shez was it his calculations which caused the problem? No. like, was there something he didn't take into account? No(ish), I would say. Markobr Asphyxiation: Due to lack of oxygen? Yes. Due to the presence of another substance (maybe carbon monoxide?)? No. Due to paralysis of the respiratory muscles? No. Is the medical condition one would usually describe as pathological? Yes, definitely. (though the recovery rate has improved a lot in our days, with good treatment) Who "suffered" of the medical condition - one of the astronauts? Two of them? All of them? The doctor? Someone else? Actually, nobody. Did the doctor overlook something relevant during the checkup? Yope. Mistake it for something else? But more like this. Came to a correct factual result but gave wrong recommendations about it? No, he came to an incorrect result and gave recommendations based on it. Did the spacecraft land more or less as expected? Yes. How long did the spacecraft's flight take - seconds? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Months? (Look up ..) 23 days. Jenburdoo Did this occur in 1971? (Look up ..) Yes. If so I know the answer and will watch and enjoy. You're welcome. Take a seat and get yourself a beer. | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1212 Registered: 8-2001 |
The lack of oxygen: Was there not enough oxygen sent/packed? Did they use it faster than anticipated? Was oxygen lost unexpectedly? From some sort of mechanical failure? From an explosion? The issue the doctor mistook: About one of the astronaut's weight? Health? Did the doc calculate how much air they needed? Is the specific space program relevant? Is this NASA? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 735 Registered: 6-2003 |
Vesica The lack of oxygen: Was there not enough oxygen sent/packed? Did they use it faster than anticipated? Was oxygen lost unexpectedly? This one. From some sort of mechanical failure? Yes. (at least this is the theory most experts later followed) From an explosion? The issue the doctor mistook: About one of the astronaut's weight? No. Health? Yes. (but possible FA) Did the doc calculate how much air they needed? No. Is the specific space program relevant? Not very much, I think. It was the Soyuz program. Is this NASA? So, no. | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 908 Registered: 2-2011 |
was the doctor responsible for the mechanical failure? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 741 Registered: 6-2003 |
Shez was the doctor responsible for the mechanical failure? No. | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 753 Registered: 6-2003 |
RECAP Three men were found dead in the desert, with their seatbelts still fastened. It was a doctor's fault that they died. - The three men were astronauts. They were found dead in the seats of the spacecraft. - The spacecraft landed at the planned time in the planned location. It was more or less intact. - The astronauts died during the flight because of a sudden lack of oxygen, caused by a technical problem. - The doctor (who was a medical doctor) made a mistake with respect to someone's health and gave a recommendation based on that. - A certain pathological condition (i.e. a disease) is relevant, though nobody of the involved people had this disease. - The doctor was not involved in the design and construction of the aircraft. - The head line means "No other place, no other time" | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1112 Registered: 5-2009 |
Did the doctor assume some astronaut was ill while he really was in good health? If so: Were measures taken to cope with the alleged illness which turned out to be fatal? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 756 Registered: 6-2003 |
Markobr Did the doctor assume some astronaut was ill while he really was in good health? Yes. If so: Were measures taken to cope with the alleged illness which turned out to be fatal? Yes, but beware of FA. You're almost there. Think what normally would happen if an astronaut is found ill a few days before the flight. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1120 Registered: 5-2009 |
Was the "ill" astronaut replaced by another? Who was less skilled/trained/experienced and failed where the original astronaut probably would have succeeded? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 758 Registered: 6-2003 |
Markobr Was the "ill" astronaut replaced by another? Yes. (actually, the whole crew was replaced) Who was less skilled/trained/experienced and failed where the original astronaut probably would have succeeded? But no. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1123 Registered: 5-2009 |
Were parts of the spacecraft or its equipment specifically adapted to the original crew? | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1252 Registered: 8-2001 |
Were there vital calculations based on the weight of the original crew? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 765 Registered: 6-2003 |
Markobr Were parts of the spacecraft or its equipment specifically adapted to the original crew? Yes, but irrelevant. They exchanged these parts before the start. Vesica Were there vital calculations based on the weight of the original crew? No. HINT: Read the puzzle statement carefully, word by word. | ||
| Markobr (Markobr)
New member Username: Markobr Post Number: 1136 Registered: 5-2009 |
Are the seatbelts especially relevant? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 831 Registered: 1-2011 |
If the seatbelts had unfastened somehow during the landing, would the men still have died? Did the men die during the landing? Before the landing procedures started? | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1263 Registered: 8-2001 |
Is it relevant it was three men? Would all have died if one of the crew had been a woman? (Not that she would have been considering the time and that it was the Soviet space program...) Would the original crew have died, had they been the ones on the flight? Is there something about the new crew that directly lead to the deaths? Thus being why the doctor was to blame for the deaths? Since he pulled the original crew because he thought one was sick? Would we expect them to have been found with their seatbelts unfastened? The technical issue - Is it a blown fuse? A rupture to the outside of the craft? Was rapid depressurization involved? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 768 Registered: 6-2003 |
Markobr Are the seatbelts especially relevant? No. Redwine If the seatbelts had unfastened somehow during the landing, would the men still have died? There was some speculative discussion afterwards whether they would have had a (theoretical, though) chance to fix the problem if they were not tied to their seats, but for the purpose of the puzzle I would say no. Did the men die during the landing? Before the landing procedures started? They died after they had taken their place in the landing capsula and detached the capsula from the rest of the spaceship, but probably still before they reached the atmosphere. Vesica Is it relevant it was three men? Not at all. That is just a matter of fact. Would all have died if one of the crew had been a woman? Yes. (Not that she would have been considering the time and that it was the Soviet space program...) There was a female Soviet astronaut in 1964, but, according to the legend, she behaved somewhat diva-like during the training and the flight, so that the head of the Soviet space program never again considered a woman, although there had been applicants all the time. It took until 1986 for the second woman to fly to space in a Soyuz spaceship. Would the original crew have died, had they been the ones on the flight? Yes. Is there something about the new crew that directly lead to the deaths? Nothing, except the fact that they were in a spaceship that failed. Thus being why the doctor was to blame for the deaths? If you would reword that a little bit you would earn credits as a puzzle cracker. : ) Since he pulled the original crew because he thought one was sick? Yes. Would we expect them to have been found with their seatbelts unfastened? No. The technical issue - Is it a blown fuse? Unlikely. A rupture to the outside of the craft? Not the slightest damage was found. Was rapid depressurization involved? Yes. | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1519 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is the doctor's main field of expertize relevant? Did he prescribe a medicine to one or more of the astronauts? Did he fail to do so? Since given the circumstances of the incident, anyone with any condition would have died anyway, is the doctor's fault that he didn't recognize a serious condition that would have kept the mission on the ground? And thus allowing it to go, he sealed their deaths? | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1277 Registered: 8-2001 |
Well, I just remember something about a woman from some other country dropping out of a joint training program with the Soviets because her repeated complaints that her "commander" kept forcing kisses on her and groping her breasts were met with a total noncomprehension about what the problem was. The commander was quoted with somethign along the lines of "men have needs and she was there". So...not sure it was a BAD thing that more Soviet women weren't involved in the space program. Also, based on the above and the fairly rampent misogyny of Russian culture (Soviet or not) - I'm not sure I'd trust reports of "diva-like" behavior. You know? Was the doctor blamed for the deaths? But was not truly TO BLAME? (trying to reword here...) Are you getting at the idea that, while the doctor had nothing to do with the failure that caused the deaths, he was directly responsible for the three "New Crew" dying rather than the three "Original Crew"?? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 771 Registered: 6-2003 |
Rbruma Is the doctor's main field of expertize relevant? No(ish). We can assume that he had the needed expertize. Did he prescribe a medicine to one or more of the astronauts? Possible but irrelevant. Did he fail to do so? No. Since given the circumstances of the incident, anyone with any condition would have died anyway Yes., is the doctor's fault that he didn't recognize a serious condition that would have kept the mission on the ground? No. And thus allowing it to go, he sealed their deaths? Yes, and see below Vesica's questions. Vesica Well, I just remember something about a woman from some other country dropping out of a joint training program with the Soviets because her repeated complaints that her "commander" kept forcing kisses on her and groping her breasts were met with a total noncomprehension about what the problem was. The commander was quoted with somethign along the lines of "men have needs and she was there". So...not sure it was a BAD thing that more Soviet women weren't involved in the space program. Also, based on the above and the fairly rampent misogyny of Russian culture (Soviet or not) - I'm not sure I'd trust reports of "diva-like" behavior. You know? It's the legend, so nobody knows for sure, except for the people directly involved. Maybe keeping women totally out was their strategy to deal with the problems you mentioned. Was the doctor blamed for the deaths? Not seriously. But was not truly TO BLAME? He was not to blame. (trying to reword here...) Are you getting at the idea that, while the doctor had nothing to do with the failure that caused the deaths, he was directly responsible for the three "New Crew" dying rather than the three "Original Crew"?? Yes. | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1288 Registered: 8-2001 |
Sooo...what are we still working on? Recap? | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 772 Registered: 6-2003 |
SPOILER Three men were found dead in the desert, with their seatbelts still fastened. It was a doctor's fault that they died. When the ground team reached the landing capsula of Soyuz-11 on 30 June 1971 (almost exactly 40 years ago, by the way) the astronauts Georgi Dobrovolski, Vladyslav Volkov and Victor Patzayev were found dead in their seats. From a blood test was very quickly determined that they died from lack of oxygen, which was somewhat surprising as the air inside the capsula seemed fairly normal and there was no obvious crack or damage. More than one year later the possible reason was identified: The capsula had an air valve that was designed to let in fresh air after landing (as nobody could know for sure how long the service crew would need to get there). This valve must have opened already in space, under near-vacuum conditions, but after the capsula had detached from the spacecraft and the astronauts had fixed themselves to their seats. So the air went out and the astronauts did not have any chance to react. The crew who died was actually the backup crew and came in after Valery Koubassov, engineer of the original crew, was diagnosed with tuberculosis four days before the start. Dr Lajos Varga, whose diagnosis meant life for three people and death for three other people, had serious difficulties to get over with that. He returned to Hungary and retired early. Valery Koubassov did not have tuberculosis, lived happily thereafter and had still two successful space flights. Both of them remarkable: He was the first Russian on board an Apollo spaceship, and he was the commander of the (so far) only space flight involving an Hungarian astronaut. The puzzle title means "No other place, no other time", refering to the fact that the astronauts died basically because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a line from the song "Ég és föld között" ("Between sky and earth") - the place where the astronauts died. Thanks to all and congratulations to Rbruma and Vesica for cracking it. I hope also Jenburdoo enjoyed watching. | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1292 Registered: 8-2001 |
Very nice one! Thanks for a great puzzle! | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 778 Registered: 6-2003 |
Ah, I'm glad you enjoyed it. But I, for my part, am totally stuck in your Vice and Virtue puzzle. No idea what this dessert could be and what it all got to do with nuns .. | ||
| Vesica (Vesica)
New member Username: Vesica Post Number: 1320 Registered: 8-2001 |
Stuck? YOU were a big part of the latest breakthroughs. I will admit, it's a complicated one (at least until we get to the solution). I sort of owe everyone who has tried at it a serving of the mystery dessert. | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 4780 Registered: 5-2003 |
The original mission commander, who also avoided flying, was Alexei Leonov, who was the first man to make a spacewalk and later flew with Kubasov on the Apollo-Soyuz mission. While the Soyuz could hold three crew, they could not wear spacesuits, and crew numbers were reduced to two until the suits were modified and "slimmed down." Great puzzle! |
