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Nimue (Nimue)
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Post Number: 8137
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to have a passive scrund about crime in America, and I bet some of you have it, too. What is it?? (A passive scrund is a scrund you have never really thought about,but if you learn it's false, you are surprised)
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1541
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular crime relevant? A type of crime? Crime in general? Is it about what constitutes a crime? Punishments for crime? Criminals? Police? Crime rates? Geographical spread of crime? Historical changes?

Did you only believe this about America? Could someone have a similar scrund about another country?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2012 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1541
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Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 8:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is a particular crime relevant? see next answer A type of crime? yes Crime in general? no Is it about what constitutes a crime? no Punishments for crime? yesCriminals? see previous answers Police? noCrime rates? noGeographical spread of crime? no Historical changes? no

Did you only believe this about America? I don't know the situation in other countriesCould someone have a similar scrund about another country? See previous answer.
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2012 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

theft? fraud? assault? murder? violent crime? armed robbery? gun crime? drugs? smuggling? counterfeiting?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2012 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Friday, June 29, 2012 - 8:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
theft? possiblyfraud? ditto assault? probably murder? yes violent crime? yesarmed robbery? yes gun crime? yesdrugs? possibly smuggling? dittocounterfeiting? ditto
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Second Amendment relevant?
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it about what sort of punishment one would recieve for this type of crime? What sort of rights the police or court has towards these criminals? The criminals' reaction to the punishment? The effects of the punishment? Laws involving the punishment?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 4:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Second Amendment relevant? no
Jondahr (Jondahr)
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Post Number: 266
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Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2012 - 11:15 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is it about what sort of punishment one would recieve for this type of crime? yesish What sort of rights the police or court has towards these criminals? no The criminals' reaction to the punishment no The effects of the punishment?noish Laws involving the punishment? yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1542
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a particular punishment relevant? Jail? Death penalty? Community service? Fines? Is the relative severity of punishment given to certain crimes over others relevant? The fact that the same crime might get a different sentence in different circumstances? Are courts relevant? Trials? Judges? Juries? Relevant who decides what punishment is given? Relevant that the full sentence is often not served?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1542
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Posted on Monday, July 02, 2012 - 11:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is a particular punishment relevant? yesJail? noDeath penalty? noCommunity service? noFines? noIs the relative severity of punishment given to certain crimes over others relevant? yesThe fact that the same crime might get a different sentence in different circumstances? noAre courts relevant? noTrials? noJudges? no Juries? no Relevant who decides what punishment is given? noishRelevant that the full sentence is often not served? no
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

deportation? the lash? cat o' nine talis (kitteh o' nine tails?) suspended sentence? hard labour? excommunication? ridicule? banishment?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 8:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
deportation? the lash? cat o' nine talis (kitteh o' nine tails?) suspended sentence? hard labour? excommunication? ridicule? banishment? No to all!!
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1545
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Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

House arrest? Electronic tagging? Being put on a register? Losing certain privileges?
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the typically harsh treatment of sex crimes in the USA relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1545
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Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 11:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
House arrest? noElectronic tagging? noBeing put on a register?yope Losing certain privileges? yes
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Post Number: 227
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Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 8:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the typically harsh treatment of sex crimes in the USA relevant?no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 1546
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Restraining orders? Not being allowed near certain people? In/near certain buildings or establishments? Not being allowed to perform a certain activity? Not being allowed to receive certain benefits?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 7:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Restraining orders? no Not being allowed near certain people? noIn/near certain buildings or establishments? no Not being allowed to perform a certain activity? yes Not being allowed to receive certain benefits? see previous answer
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you surprised to learn that people convicted of a certain crime could not perform a certain activity? That they could? Did you discover that a particular crime is punished with harsher sanctions than another crime, which surprised you?

Does the activity involve leaving one's house? Physical movement? Saying something? Does it involve other people? Is work relevant? Certain types of jobs that may not be open to people with a criminal past? Voting?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 8:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Were you surprised to learn that people convicted of a certain crime could not perform a certain activity?yes That they could? no Did you discover that a particular crime is punished with harsher sanctions than another crime, which surprised you? no

Does the activity involve leaving one's house? yesPhysical movement? yes Saying something? not necessarily Does it involve other people? yesIs work relevant? no Certain types of jobs that may not be open to yespeople with a criminal past? irrelVoting?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BLOOOOOOPERRRRALERTTTTTT!! There were typos in my responses to the last group of Enjay's questions above, Behold a corrected version below.

Does the activity involve leaving one's house? usuallyPhysical movement? yes Saying something? not necessarily Does it involve other people? yesIs work relevant? no Certain types of jobs that may not be open to people with a criminal past? irrelVoting? yes
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

being banned from driving? restraining orders?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you surprised to discover that convicted criminals can't vote? That people in jail can't? People convicted of certain crimes?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2012 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

being banned from driving? no restraining orders? no

We've already established that voting is the relevant activity, & I think I can declare a

************* SPOILER ************
Never having thought about it, I was amazed to learn that all but two states in the US bar convicted felons from voting while in prison & many even bar them from voting after they have served their sentences & been released. See this link:
http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=286
I think that's appalling as well as amazing; nothing but renouncing your citizenship should deprive you of your right to vote. There's also the practical problem that the move disenfranchises a major force for prison reform. Another practical problem is that this puzzle was so easy. Please check out my replacement, which won't be -- I hope.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was well aware of this. I can see the logic of having someone who is incarcerated not be able to vote (whether it should actually be that way is a matter of debate), but permanent loss of the vote--or for that matter ANY permanent consequence for a crime, that outlasts the term of the sentence and probation--seems to violate the idea of definite sentencing in the first place.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, prisons apparently count for congressional district boundaries, with the prisons' populations being in the district. My Congressional district includes several fairly large prisons, and therefore we get a district with fewer voters. I believe only a few states currently disenfrachise felons forever, but many disenfranchise them while they're on parole.
And I agree that it's ridiculous. While they're in prison is one thing, since prison by definition takes away some of our rights. (The merits of the prison system are another issue entirely). However, once they get out of prison, they have to pay taxes and obey laws just like everyone else. They should have a say in electing those who set taxes and make laws. No taxation without representation.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not opposed to prisons, although I think we imprison too many people, since I don't think any drugs should be illegal. And of course it's unacceptable that poor blacks are more apt to be imprisoned than rich whites, even for the very same offense. But I'm all for sending convicted murderers, rapists, and swindlers to prison, where they lose the right to liberty. They're still Americans, though, & should not lose the right to vote. The fact that they're not working & paying taxes is irrel; after all, welfare recipients don't lose the right to vote. Also, anyone who buys anything (including prisoners in the prison commissary) pays a sales tax.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 3:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That wasn't my point. My point is that disenfranchising them while they're in prison is debatable, since being in prison takes away some of your rights (for instance, nobody would argue that prisoners have a right to "liberty" ala "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"), but not all of your rights (for instance, prisoners' religion freedom has been protected). I only brought that up because they're paying taxes once they get out of prison. And prisoners in Connecticut don't pay sales tax. At every sales place at UConn, a state law is posted saying students, staff, and faculty at Connecticut colleges and Universities, state employeest, and inmates and employees at state prisons, are exempt from sales tax when purchasing things on the grounds of their respective facilities (albeit in much more legal talk than that). I always get a good chuckle at the part about prisoners. So at least in Connecticut, inmates don't pay sales tax except when they're on conjugal leave. (And I don't even know if we have that in Connecticut)
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 3:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PS: I support the FairTax, which would eliminate the national income tax and IRS and replace it with a national sales tax. (Find out more at fairtax.org) I don't know if inmates would pay it or how it would work if they did, since households would normally receive a "prebate" on the taxes they would pay on necessities, but I have asked someone who should.

PS: I agree with you on the drugs. Marijuana should be legal entirely for adults, and harder drugs shouldn't be completely legal but should be treated as a medical issue, not a criminal one.

Any victimless crime should not be a crime at all.
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2012 - 3:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Myself, I'm just surprised that some people(ah-hem) actually didn't know this - have you never known any convicted felons well enough to learn this?
(I mean this in all seriousness).

Not that I agree with it by any means. It's akin to the sex-offender registry.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2012 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is somewhat belated - I've been rather out of touch lately. But fact that prisoners are counted as part of the population shouldn't mean anything. Children are part of the population, as counted by the census, but don't vote. People who are nationals of another country should not vote in this one.

And insofar as the fair tax or sales tax enables a stingy rich person to get by with paying very little tax, it is unfair.
Beachbum (Beachbum)
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point, Solo, never thought of it in that way. It makes a bit more sense now.

Not sure what sales tax has to do with it though.
Solo1 (Solo1)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a response to Greg, who is for it.
Nice thing about this forum is that it includes people of every political position, without acrimony.
In fact, it has that when I'm sitting alone, lurking at my computer!

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