| Author | Message | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2013 |
"Andrew has been murdered!" "John did it!" "But Alice, he couldn't have!" "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 596 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did John do it? Was Andrew murdered? Are more people relevant than Andrew, John and Alice? Are all three protagonists human and adult? Is Andrew male? Is John? Is Alice female? Was Andrew related to John? to Alice? Was John related to Alice? Is location relevant? Did it happen in modern times? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did John do it? yes, he did Was Andrew murdered? yes, he was Are more people relevant than Andrew, John and Alice? yes, two more Are all three protagonists human and adult? yes, they are Is Andrew male? Is John? Is Alice female? yes to all, though it isn't really relevant - reverse the sexes and the story would still work Was Andrew related to John? to Alice? no Was John related to Alice? no Is location relevant? yesish... Did it happen in modern times? yes it did, and that's very relevant! | ||
| Psydkik (Psydkik)
New member Username: Psydkik Post Number: 506 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was one of the other two relevant people the speaker of the line "Andrew has been murdered!"? Did that person also say the line "But Alice, he couldn't have!"? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 86 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was one of the other two relevant people the speaker of the line "Andrew has been murdered!"? yes Did that person also say the line "But Alice, he couldn't have!"? and yes | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 414 Registered: 9-2013 |
Would John have had to murder Alice to keep her silent? Mode of murder relevant? Occupation of our three known characters relevant? Andrew's? John's? Alice's? Did this take place in an urban setting? Rural? In nature? Was Alice aware that Andrew was dead before she was told he'd been murdered? Is the fourth [speaker of lines one and three in the dialogue] a HAM? HAF? IF a HAM, can we call him Otis? If a HAF, can she be Natasha? Is #4 [Otis/Natasha] related to any of the other three? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 87 Registered: 9-2013 |
Would John have had to murder Alice to keep her silent? well, arguably he might have to now, since she just revealed him as the murderer to everyone (however, this would mean murdering the others as well, and he probably won't risk doing that), but not if she hadn't discovered it, no Mode of murder relevant? slightly, but not very important Occupation of our three known characters relevant? Andrew's? John's? Alice's? no occupations are relevant Did this take place in an urban setting? Rural? fairly rural In nature? Was Alice aware that Andrew was dead before she was told he'd been murdered? no Is the fourth [speaker of lines one and three in the dialogue] a HAM? This, but again, it doesn't really matter HAF? IF a HAM, can we call him Otis? Of course If a HAF, can she be Natasha? Is #4 [Otis/Natasha] related to any of the other three? no, or if he was it would be irrelevant | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 415 Registered: 9-2013 |
So if Alice had discovered it, but kept quiet, would John have had to murder her? Or put another way, did John know that Alice was on to him? Is John's motive relevant? Does Otis think John has an alibi? Or that he's just not the murdering type? Is the fifth person a HAM? HAF? If HAM: named Sam? If HAF: Natasha? Does #5 know any of the other four? For that matter, I assume that Otis, Andrew, John and Alice all know each other? Does the crime scene have any clues we should discover? Did the murder take place indoors? Outdoors? Relevant? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2013 |
So if Alice had discovered it, but kept quiet, would John have had to murder her? if he realised she had discovered it, he might indeed have chosen to kill her, yes, but... Or put another way, did John know that Alice was on to him? ...no, he didn't - not until she said so Is John's motive relevant? not really, we're mostly curious about the method here Does Otis think John has an alibi? yes! Or that he's just not the murdering type? probably also true, but not the important thing Is the fifth person a HAM? HAF? this, but once again, this is not crucial If HAM: named Sam? If HAF: Natasha? Natasha it is! Does #5 know any of the other four? yes For that matter, I assume that Otis, Andrew, John and Alice all know each other? your assumption is correct Does the crime scene have any clues we should discover? yesish, there are other important elements present that are needed to fully understand the situation, though not mainly at the very spot of the crime... Did the murder take place indoors? this Outdoors? Relevant? a little | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 424 Registered: 9-2013 |
Sounds like perhaps John is present during the dialogue... correct? Is Natasha present? Is Andrew's body present, or otherwise nearby? Did Otis discover the body? Is it freshly-dead? Was he with John when he presumes the murder took place? Are they vacationing or traveling together? And Otis thought John hadn't arrived yet? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2013 |
Sounds like perhaps John is present during the dialogue... correct? correct! Is Natasha present? no Is Andrew's body present, or otherwise nearby? it is nearby, yes Did Otis discover the body? yes Is it freshly-dead? DOYD of freshly dead, but yeah, pretty fresh Was he with John when he presumes the murder took place? yes! good question! Are they vacationing or traveling together? yope And Otis thought John hadn't arrived yet? no, he knew he was there, but this is still veeery vaguely OTRT... | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 427 Registered: 9-2013 |
Five characters to track; oh, my, I often get lost in these. For at least my own benefit, the dramatis personae: Andrew: victim of a murder, and rather freshly-dead [IMO, that means that rigor mortis had not yet set in] John: the [alleged -- innocent until proven guilty, right?] murderer Otis: announces the crime Alice: accuses John Natasha: TBD All correctly sorted? Is Natasha's occupation relevant? Is she law enforcement? Did John have an accomplice? Was it one of the other four? Method of murder: gunshot? strangulation? stabbing? blunt force? drowning? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2013 |
Five characters to track; oh, my, I often get lost in these. For at least my own benefit, the dramatis personae: Andrew: victim of a murder, and rather freshly-dead [IMO, that means that rigor mortis had not yet set in] John: the [alleged -- innocent until proven guilty, right?] murderer Otis: announces the crime Alice: accuses John Natasha: TBD All correctly sorted? Beautifully so! Is Natasha's occupation relevant? yes Is she law enforcement? no Did John have an accomplice? yope, very much worth exploring! Was it one of the other four? if we regard the answer to the previous question as "yes", then this is also a "yes" Method of murder: gunshot? strangulation? this, but could easily have been one of the other, except drowning stabbing? blunt force? drowning? | ||
| Psydkik (Psydkik)
New member Username: Psydkik Post Number: 510 Registered: 9-2013 |
Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!" Alice: "John did it!" Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" Have I correctly assigned names to the lines? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 605 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was the yopish accomplice aware that he (she) helps in murder? Was the yopish accomplice Otis - giving John an alibi? Did Alice see the murder? If Alice hadn't discovered, would the next victim be Natasha? Otis? Alice? Did Alice discover: the body? the murderer? the mode of murder? some evidence? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2013 |
Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!" Alice: "John did it!" Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" Have I correctly assigned names to the lines? yes, you have Was the yopish accomplice aware that he (she) helps in murder? no! Was the yopish accomplice Otis - giving John an alibi? in a way you could say that Otis was also an unaware accomplice, but not the main one Did Alice see the murder? no If Alice hadn't discovered, would the next victim be Natasha? yes! Otis? Alice? Did Alice discover: the body? no, Otis did that the murderer? she realised John was the murderer, but she did not see him commit the murder, if that's what you mean the mode of murder? no, she had no idea about that some evidence? it probably would not hold up as evidence, but something that convinced her of John's guilt | ||
| Psydkik (Psydkik)
New member Username: Psydkik Post Number: 511 Registered: 9-2013 |
If instead this had happened: Andrew [truthfully]: "Otis has been murdered!" would Alice still have replied Alice: "John did it!" ? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2013 |
If instead this had happened: Andrew [truthfully]: "Otis has been murdered!" would Alice still have replied Alice: "John did it!" ? Given that John still actually did it, and carried out the crime in the same way, yes, she probably would | ||
| Sleepingbeaver (Sleepingbeaver)
New member Username: Sleepingbeaver Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2007 |
Are we talking about real murder? Or were they just playing a game? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2013 |
Are we talking about real murder? Or were they just playing a game? a very real murder, I'm afraid. No games involved | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 449 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Alice think John had a motive? Did she know something about him that Otis didn't know? Did she know something about Andrew that Otis didn't know? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Alice think John had a motive? yes, and that might have primed her, but it is not the reason why she decided John was the murderer. Did she know something about him that Otis didn't know? Did she know something about Andrew that Otis didn't know? this is largely irrelevant | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was Alice unaware accomplice herself? Would John have had to murder Natasha because he did not achieve his aim by murdering Andrew only? Did he from the beginning plan to kill both Andrew and Natasha? Did Alice discover anything about Natasha? Andrew? that meant John's motive to murder Natasha was no longer valid? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 97 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was Alice unaware accomplice herself? like Otis she sort of would have become one if she hadn't realised John was the murderer, but she is not the main accomplice Would John have had to murder Natasha because he did not achieve his aim by murdering Andrew only? no, his aim was killing Andrew - the murder of Natasha would have been secondary, but necassaryDid he from the beginning plan to kill both Andrew and Natasha? He probably did Did Alice discover anything about Natasha? yesish, she realised something about her Andrew? that meant John's motive to murder Natasha was no longer valid? his motive was no longer valid because Alice said what she said | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 619 Registered: 10-2013 |
So, only possible main accomplice left is Natasha, correct? Would that be the motive for second murder - get rid of the unaware accomplice, who could later connect their actions with murder? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 98 Registered: 9-2013 |
Redwine (Redwine) New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 619 Registered: 10-2013 Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2013 - 3:18 pm: So, only possible main accomplice left is Natasha, correct? Would that be the motive for second murder - get rid of the unaware accomplice, who could later connect their actions with murder? very good! That is exactly right! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 634 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha provide John the weapon/tool of murder? Did Natasha help John in hiding evidence? Did Natasha bring/lure Andrew in the place where he was murdered? Did Alice see Natasha doing her accomplice work? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha provide John the weapon/tool of murder? Did Natasha help John in hiding evidence? Did Natasha bring/lure Andrew in the place where he was murdered? no to all of these Did Alice see Natasha doing her accomplice work? yes she did! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 659 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha do her accomplice work before the murder? At the time of murder? After the murder? Did she interact with Andrew in a relevant way? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 104 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha do her accomplice work before the murder? At the time of murder? After the murder? this Did she interact with Andrew in a relevant way? not relevant to the murder, no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 663 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha help John to get rid of the weapon of murder? To get rid of the corpse? Did she provide John an alibi? Did she hid him from the police? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 107 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha help John to get rid of the weapon of murder? To get rid of the corpse? Did she provide John an alibi? this, no to rest Did she hid him from the police? | ||
| Yojimbo (Yojimbo)
New member Username: Yojimbo Post Number: 463 Registered: 9-2013 |
Would Natasha have unwittingly provided John with an alibi? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 110 Registered: 9-2013 |
Would Natasha have unwittingly provided John with an alibi? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 669 Registered: 10-2013 |
So, Alice saw Natasha providing John with an alibi and as a consequence she discovered that John in fact did not have an alibi, correct? And as Natasha's role was revealed, John did not need to kill her anymore, still correct? Did John ask Natasha to do what she had done to provide him an alibi? Were John and Natasha professionally linked? Did Natasha change date on a document? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 115 Registered: 9-2013 |
So, Alice saw Natasha providing John with an alibi and as a consequence she discovered that John in fact did not have an alibi, correct? quite so And as Natasha's role was revealed, John did not need to kill her anymore, still correct? correct, there would be no point in killing her if his cover was already blown Did John ask Natasha to do what she had done to provide him an alibi? if I understand your question correctly then yes, John asked Natasha to do something that he knew would give him an alibi Were John and Natasha professionally linked? yesish, but not terribly important Did Natasha change date on a document? good idea, but no | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 116 Registered: 9-2013 |
This is kind of a complex one, so to help everyone keep track, here is a... **RECAP** CHARACTERS: Andrew: victim of a murder John: the murderer Otis: announces the crime Alice: accuses John Natasha: John's unaware accomplice Andrew has been murdered (by strangulation). Otis discovers his body (which is somewhere nearby) and tells this to John and Alice. Alice immediately acusses John of being the murderer. Otis says that he couldn't have been (because he thinks he was with John when the murder took place), but Alice insists that he is, having seen Natasha do something that gave John a fake alibi. Furthermore, she realises that if she hadn't discovered this, John would have had no choice but to murder Natasha as well, to get rid of the unaware accomplice who could later connect his actions with the murder. John did commit the murder, and Natasha did give him an alibi, but she wasn't aware that she was helping him. Whatever she did to help him, she did after the murder had taken place, and because John had asked her to do it. She is not present at the time of this dialogue. Everyone is human and adult, and they all know each other. Genders are not really important. What IS important is that this story takes place in modern times. | ||
| Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
New member Username: Kayleearafinwiel Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2013 |
So: Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!" Alice: "John did it!" Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha) Yes? "Modern times" = the 20th/21st century? Post-WWII? Or would it have been possible earlier, say, the Edwardian Era, Roaring Twenties, or Great Depression? | ||
| Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
New member Username: Kayleearafinwiel Post Number: 100 Registered: 9-2013 |
*clarifies* "he" meaning John, and "murder again" meaning killing Natasha, in Alice's second statement. | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2013 |
So Otis believed, incorrectly, that he was with John when the murder occurred? Was he therefore mistaken about when the murder occurred? I'm assuming he wasn't mistaken about being with John, while really it was just someone impersonating John, but this IS a lateral puzzle...? Assuming that Otis was in fact incorrect about the timing of the murder, was he misled by something to do with where the body was found? by the fact that John seemed to have another alibi for the time before and/or after John and Otis being together? Did Natasha in fact do something that John seemed to have been doing when the murder was committed? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 119 Registered: 9-2013 |
So: Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!" Alice: "John did it!" Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha) Yes? quite right "Modern times" = the 20th/21st century? yes Post-WWII? Or would it have been possible earlier, say, the Edwardian Era, Roaring Twenties, or Great Depression? I would say the earliest this could have taken place is in the 1990s *clarifies* "he" meaning John, and "murder again" meaning killing Natasha, in Alice's second statement. correct! So Otis believed, incorrectly, that he was with John when the murder occurred? yes Was he therefore mistaken about when the murder occurred? yes I'm assuming he wasn't mistaken about being with John, while really it was just someone impersonating John, but this IS a lateral puzzle...? it is, and you are right to rule out every possibility, but no, you are right in your assumption. Assuming that Otis was in fact incorrect about the timing of the murder, was he misled by something to do with where the body was found? noish by the fact that John seemed to have another alibi for the time before and/or after John and Otis being together? Not quite sure what you mean. Otis thought he was with John at the actual time of the murder. If this doesn't answer your question, please clarify. Did Natasha in fact do something that John seemed to have been doing when the murder was committed? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 726 Registered: 10-2013 |
Are mobile phones relevant? Did Natasha pretend she was talking with John at the moment of murder, while in fact she was not? Is it relevant what excuse did John tell to Natasha to gain her help? If yes, professional excuse? Private excuse? Was something done to the body to change the estimated time of death? Did Otis think the murder was committed earlier than it actually was? Later? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2013 |
Are mobile phones relevant? Very much so!! Did Natasha pretend she was talking with John at the moment of murder, while in fact she was not? but the solution is not as straightforward as that, I'm afraid.. Is it relevant what excuse did John tell to Natasha to gain her help? yes If yes, professional excuse? Private excuse? DOYD of "professional" Was something done to the body to change the estimated time of death? no Did Otis think the murder was committed earlier than it actually was? Later? this | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha work in telecommunication? Did Otis think he talked with John at the time of murder via mobile phone? Did the relevant mobie phones belong to: Natasha? John? Otis? Alice? Andrew? Is daylight saving time relevant? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 125 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha work in telecommunication? noDid Otis think he talked with John at the time of murder via mobile phone? no Did the relevant mobie phones belong to: Natasha? yes John? and yes Otis? Alice? Andrew? Is daylight saving time relevant? no, but nice try ;) | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2013 |
Not quite sure what you mean. Otis thought he was with John at the actual time of the murder. If this doesn't answer your question, please clarify. What I was trying to get at was to determine how Otis thinks he knows when the murder happened. We know that Otis knows he was with John during a certain period of time, but we don't know how Otis, or anyone else, thinks he can prove that the murder was not committed earlier or later than this period of time. I was suggesting that possibly John was ostensibly occupied with some sort of responsibility during whatever part of the day he was NOT with Otis, and that maybe Natasha took this over so that John was free to commit the murder. | ||
| Kayleearafinwiel (Kayleearafinwiel)
New member Username: Kayleearafinwiel Post Number: 102 Registered: 9-2013 |
Natasha Fatale? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 127 Registered: 9-2013 |
What I was trying to get at was to determine how Otis thinks he knows when the murder happened. We know that Otis knows he was with John during a certain period of time, but we don't know how Otis, or anyone else, thinks he can prove that the murder was not committed earlier or later than this period of time. Good! This is exactly what we're looking for. I was suggesting that possibly John was ostensibly occupied with some sort of responsibility during whatever part of the day he was NOT with Otis, and that maybe Natasha took this over so that John was free to commit the murder. No, this is OTWT. Remember, Otis believed that he was with John at the time of the murder, not that John was off somewhere doing something else Natasha Fatale? Heh, no, Natasha Fatale is not relevant to this story. I wasn't even the one who named her Natasha ;) | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 747 Registered: 10-2013 |
So, Otis was mistaken as to the time of murder. Did he falsely assume the time of murder because of Natasha's actions? Did John make her to find the body? Did John make her to somehow assure Otis that at certain time Andrew was well and living? Is the following timing correct? 1. John plans murder and gets Natasha to help him/ 2. John commits murder 3. Otis thinks John commits murder 4. Body is found 5. Alice makes her discovery 6. The conversation from the puzzle sentence takes place. Assuming it's correct, did the relevant phone call take place between 1-2? 2-3? 3-4? 4-5? Was there only one relevant phone call? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2013 |
So, Otis was mistaken as to the time of murder. correct Did he falsely assume the time of murder because of Natasha's actions? yes Did John make her to find the body? no Did John make her to somehow assure Otis that at certain time Andrew was well and living? yes! Is the following timing correct? 1. John plans murder and gets Natasha to help him/ no, Natasha is not involved at this point, other than in John's plans 2. John commits murder yes 3. Otis thinks John commits murder no, Otis does NOT think John commits the murder - he believes he is with him at this point. 4. Body is found yes 5. Alice makes her discovery yesish, the realisation doesn't really hit her until she is told Andrew is dead. So really this takes place after line 1 of the conversation 6. The conversation from the puzzle sentence takes place. yes, but see above Assuming it's correct, did the relevant phone call Ah, but I have never said anything about a phone call, now have I? take place between 1-2? 2-3? but the relevant action takes place between 2 and 3 3-4? 4-5? Was there only one relevant phone call? there were no relevant phone calls! GOOD line of questions! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2013 |
Improving the timing: 1. John plans murder and plans to get Natasha to help. 2. John commits murder 3. Natasha does something that assures Otis Andrew is well and living 4. John is with Otis and Otis thinks this is the time of murder 5. Body is found 6. The puzzle conversation starts 7. Alice makes a connection about Natasha's actions she saw and the murder 8. The rest of conversation goes as we know it. Correct now? Does Natasha's action involve mobile phones? Did she phone/text John? Did John had her number tagged as "Andrew", so that Otis could see Andrew texting/calling? As there were no relevant phone calls: did someone call but the phone was not picked up? Noone called at all? If the last is correct, are other features of mobile phones relevant? Photo cameras? Movie cameras? Showing date/time? Contact lists? Games? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2013 |
Improving the timing: 1. John plans murder and plans to get Natasha to help. 2. John commits murder 3. Natasha does something that assures Otis Andrew is well and living 4. John is with Otis and Otis thinks this is the time of murder 5. Body is found 6. The puzzle conversation starts 7. Alice makes a connection about Natasha's actions she saw and the murder 8. The rest of conversation goes as we know it. Correct now? This looks very accurate! Well done! Does Natasha's action involve mobile phones? yope Did she phone/text John? no Did John had her number tagged as "Andrew", so that Otis could see Andrew texting/calling? no, but good thought As there were no relevant phone calls: did someone call but the phone was not picked up? Noone called at all? no calls were made whatsoever If the last is correct, are other features of mobile phones relevant? yes! Photo cameras? Movie cameras? Showing date/time? Contact lists? Games? no to all To save everyone some time: the relevant phone related action was sending a text message | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha text John? Did John text Natasha? Was Andrew's name mentioned in the text? Did the one who was texted receive a message? Read it? Read it out loud? Show it to someone else? Mention it with conversation with someone? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 134 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha text John? no Did John text Natasha? yes Was Andrew's name mentioned in the text? no Did the one who was texted receive a message? yes Read it? yes Read it out loud? no Show it to someone else? no Mention it with conversation with someone? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 785 Registered: 10-2013 |
In that message John asked Natasha to do something that later turned out to be unaware accomplice work, right? Did John text Natasha after having murdered Andrew? If yes, after: seconds? minutes? hours? days? after having murdered Andrew? Did Natasha do her accomplice work immediately after having received the message? Or was receiving the message accomplice work itself? Did the message imply something about Andrew? Did John and Natasha have preceeding agreement concerning the message? Actions of Natasha when she receives that message? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 138 Registered: 9-2013 |
In that message John asked Natasha to do something that later turned out to be unaware accomplice work, right? yesish, the message was kind of incomplete Did John text Natasha after having murdered Andrew? yes If yes, after: seconds? minutes? hours? this is most likely days? after having murdered Andrew? Did Natasha do her accomplice work immediately after having received the message? yes Or was receiving the message accomplice work itself? not quite Did the message imply something about Andrew? no, and that's important! Did John and Natasha have preceeding agreement concerning the message? not beside that he had probably asked her to do this kind of thing before Actions of Natasha when she receives that message? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 794 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did John ask Natasha to justify his absence somewhere? To do part of his work? To pretend he was somewhere else than he really was? Were John and Andrew coworkers? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did John ask Natasha to justify his absence somewhere? To do part of his work? To pretend he was somewhere else than he really was? no to all of these Were John and Andrew coworkers? irr. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 800 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did John's message mention? or imply? Otis? Alice? Did Natasha do something that normally would include Andrew's participation/consent? So that everybody thought that if she did this, she must have gotten Andrew's participation/consent? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did John's message mention? or imply? Otis? Alice? no Did Natasha do something that normally would include Andrew's participation/consent? So that everybody thought that if she did this, she must have gotten Andrew's participation/consent? not at all - Nice idea though | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 823 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was the message "kind of incomplete" on purpose? Did Natasha do her action exactly as John planned it? Was Natasha in a relevant place when she got the message? Did her action involve specific equipment? Could this action be done by anyone? Could this action be completed within seconds? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was the message "kind of incomplete" on purpose? yes! Did Natasha do her action exactly as John planned it? pretty much yes - his plan was dodgy enough that he probably had a plan B if she didn't, but he never had to consider it Was Natasha in a relevant place when she got the message? it was important approximately where she was, yes Did her action involve specific equipment? no, no equipment needed Could this action be done by anyone? pretty much Could this action be completed within seconds? well, it depends what you define as the actual "action", but the whole thing shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes at the most, and maybe less than one | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 829 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha try to get the missing part of the message? Did she assume what the missing part of message was about? Did she act accordingly to that assumption? Did whatever Natasha did after having received the message, involve contact with someone? Was she at her workplace when she got the message? Was she at home? Was she outdoors? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 154 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha try to get the missing part of the message? yes sort of, beware of a possible FA Did she assume what the missing part of message was about? yesish Did she act accordingly to that assumption? yes Did whatever Natasha did after having received the message, involve contact with someone? yes Was she at her workplace when she got the message? yes Was she at home? Was she outdoors? yes | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 846 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha's action involve contact with Otis? With Alice? With John? Did her action involve time? Did she set up a different time somewhere? Did Otis see the result of Natasha's action? Hear the result? Hear about the result? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 188 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha's action involve contact with Otis? partly this... With Alice? ...and partly this... With John? ...but mainly this Did her action involve time? not in any direct sense, no, she did not adjust any clocks, travel to other time zones or anything like that Did she set up a different time somewhere? so no Did Otis see the result of Natasha's action? yope - explore! Hear the result? nnno.. Hear about the result? yes, BUT... | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 852 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John in person? Via Internet? Did she text them? Did she assemble Otis, Alice and John together at the fixed time? Did Otis assume that she contacted also Andrew? | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1040 Registered: 7-2006 |
Did John ask Natasha to call him back? Or text him back? Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to call back? Or text back? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 193 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John in person? yes!! Via Internet? Did she text them? Did she assemble Otis, Alice and John together at the fixed time? no to the rest Did Otis assume that she contacted also Andrew? not at that time, but... Did John ask Natasha to call him back? Or text him back? no Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to call back? Or text back? no, it was deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to... | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 858 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to visit all relevant people in person? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 199 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was the message deliberately lacking so that Natasha would have to visit all relevant people in person? yesish, I think there is an FA lurking here that has to do with the fact that the setting hasn't been properly established | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 868 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were all people involved present in one location? Within walking distance? We know that: the setting is fairy rural, Andrew was murdered indoors, and Natasha was outdoors in her workplace when she received John's message, all correct? Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John within her professional capacity? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were all people involved present in one location? Within walking distance? Yes! To be accurate: Otis, Alice and John were sitting in the exact same place, while Natasha was in walking distance of the three of them. They were all in walking distance of Andrew's body We know that: the setting is fairy rural, Andrew was murdered indoors, and Natasha was outdoors in her workplace when she received John's message, all correct? Yes. The rural part is not terribly important, but might give you a clearer picture of the setting Did Natasha contact Otis, Alice and John within her professional capacity? She believes he is doing her job, yes. | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1048 Registered: 7-2006 |
When Natasha received the text message, did she know it was from John? Or think it was from Andrew? Or one of the others? When she came in, whatever she said to the group suggested that Andrew was alive at that time, correct? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 204 Registered: 9-2013 |
When Natasha received the text message, did she know it was from John? yes Or think it was from Andrew? Or one of the others? so no When she came in, whatever she said to the group suggested that Andrew was alive at that time, correct? yope, you're missing one step of the process | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were they in a hotel? In a restaurant? Did Natasha try to contact Andrew before she approached the group? Did she do other relevant thing between getting the message and approaching the group? Did Natasha work only outdoors? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 208 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were they in a hotel? In a restaurant? no and no Did Natasha try to contact Andrew before she approached the group? no, but.... Did she do other relevant thing between getting the message and approaching the group? let me help you a bit here: the correct sequence is 1) she got the message 2) she approached the group 3) she did something else that is very relevant 4) she approached the group AGAIN Did Natasha work only outdoors? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 903 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were they in a sort of touristic site? Leisure center? Did the group pay Natasha? Were the group sitting when Natasha approached them? Walking? Relevant? Did she consider it weird that John texts her, being within walking distance of her? Did Otis and Alice see John texting? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 212 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were they in a sort of touristic site? Leisure center? Did the group pay Natasha? no to all Were the group sitting when Natasha approached them? this Walking? Relevant? not extremely, but it might help you understand the whole situation better. Did she consider it weird that John texts her, being within walking distance of her? no, probably not - she probably just thought it was more convenient for him to text her Did Otis and Alice see John texting? yes, and this is one of the things that later made Alice realise what had happened! | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2013 |
Between the two times when she (Natasha) approached the group, did she: Check something visually? talk to someone? otherwise obtain some information? visit a particular place? Did she obtain, or otherwise interact with, one of Andrew's possessions? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 214 Registered: 9-2013 |
Between the two times when she (Natasha) approached the group, did she: Check something visually? yes talk to someone? no, BUT a little talking might have been involved even so... otherwise obtain some information? yope visit a particular place? yesish Did she obtain, or otherwise interact with, one of Andrew's possessions? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 946 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were the group sitting on the numbered places? On/at the facility with specific number of places? Was Andrew supposed to be sitting with them? Were they waiting for Andrew to come? Did Natasha check if Andrew had already arrived? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 217 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were the group sitting on the numbered places? On/at the facility with specific number of places? no Was Andrew supposed to be sitting with them? YES! Were they waiting for Andrew to come? yes! Did Natasha check if Andrew had already arrived? no, but you're getting close | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1052 Registered: 7-2006 |
When Natasha came into the gathering the first time, after the incomplete message, did she expect that Andrew would be there? Did some component of the message, or something implied by the partial message, make her think he was there? Or did she just expect the whole group to be there? When she left, was she leaving to go to find Andrew? Or to go to his office? Did she, in fact, find Andrew? Dead? | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 953 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did Natasha, approaching the group for the second time, give them the information that Andrew won't come? If yes, did it make Otis think that she had that information from Andrew directly? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 219 Registered: 9-2013 |
When Natasha came into the gathering the first time, after the incomplete message, did she expect that Andrew would be there? perhaps, but she probably didn't really think too much about it. Did some component of the message, or something implied by the partial message, make her think he was there? no Or did she just expect the whole group to be there? probably, but again, she didn't really think too much about it When she left, was she leaving to go to find Andrew? no, but..... Or to go to his office? no Did she, in fact, find Andrew? Dead? no and no Did Natasha, approaching the group for the second time, give them the information that Andrew won't come? no, but nice thought If yes, did it make Otis think that she had that information from Andrew directly? no, but she did saysomething that made Otis think Andrew was ok | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 964 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were they in the pub? Did Natasha order drinks for all of them, including Andrew? Did she declare somewhere the number of people, including Andrew? Did Natasha mention Andrew by name? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 220 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were they in the pub? no Did Natasha order drinks for all of them, including Andrew? no Did she declare somewhere the number of people, including Andrew? no Did Natasha mention Andrew by name? NO! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 985 Registered: 10-2013 |
Were they on a picnic? A hike? Skiing trip? In journey? Were they in the garden? Was Natasha responsible for the place they were in? For their future plans? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 222 Registered: 9-2013 |
Were they on a picnic? not exactly... A hike? Skiing trip? In journey? no Were they in the garden? yes, more specifically, they were having breakfast in the garden (not terribly important, but now you know) Was Natasha responsible for the place they were in? in a way, she did have a partial responsibility For their future plans? no | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 228 Registered: 9-2013 |
I think we're really close to a solution now, but one vital element is still missing. I shall post a recap, in the hope that things will seem clearer. **RECAP** CHARACTERS: Andrew: victim of a murder John: the murderer Otis: announces the crime Alice: accuses John Natasha: John's unaware accomplice John murders Andrew (by strangling him, but that's not terribly important). Some hour later, he is sitting in the garden with Otis and Alice. They are waiting for Andrew, who (naturally) doesn't show. John then sends a text message to Natasha, who is within walking distance of them. Alice and Otis sees him using his phone, but for now makes nothing much of it. Natasha receives the message, which is kind of incomplete, and she then approaches the group. Shortly thereafter, she leaves them and does something which involves going to a certain place and checking something visually. She doesn't exactly talk to anyone, but a little talking might have been involved even so. She then returns to the group. On this second encounter she says something that makes Otis (and Alice, for now) think that Andrew is OK. She doesn't, however, mention Andrew by name. Later, Otis discovers Andrew's body, which is somewhere indoors. He rushes out to the others, and the following conversation takes place: Otis: "Andrew has been murdered!" Alice: (in suddden realisation) "John did it!" Otis: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" (because he knows they were together at a time Andrew was OK, and have been since) Alice: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" (meaning Natasha) Natasha's profession is sort of important (though the puzzle could probably work without it), and she is at work at the time this takes place. Natasha never discovers any dead body and never finds any of this odd or out of the ordinary. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1000 Registered: 10-2013 |
Are they in the garden of John's house? Otis's? Alice's? Does Natasha work in this house? Does she work in community services? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 238 Registered: 9-2013 |
Are they in the garden of John's house? yes Otis's? Alice's? Does Natasha work in this house? yes Does she work in community services? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1040 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did John ask Natasha to serve them meal? To prepare the table? Did Natasha prepare the meal for four people? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 242 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did John ask Natasha to serve them meal? To prepare the table? Did Natasha prepare the meal for four people? no to all | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1042 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did she approach the group to ask John about what was incomplete in the message? Did she work as John's secretary? As a household care? As a babysitter? Was the place Natasha went to between first and second approach to the group a part of John's house? A shop? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 245 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did she approach the group to ask John about what was incomplete in the message? yope Did she work as John's secretary? this could work As a household care? but this is closer to what i had in mind As a babysitter? it's a stretch. but maaaybe this could have worked as well. Well, in this case no, anyway. Was the place Natasha went to between first and second approach to the group a part of John's house? yes! A shop? so no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1048 Registered: 10-2013 |
So she went somewhere in the house: a cellar? a garage? a kitchen? John's office? One of the bedrooms? Bathroom? Did she check something in documents? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 247 Registered: 9-2013 |
So she went somewhere in the house: a cellar? maybe, but not the most likely place a garage? probably not?a kitchen? probably not John's office? possibly One of the bedrooms? also possible, and perhaps the most likely Bathroom? unlikely Did she check something in documents?no The important thing about the room was that both John and Natasha knew about something that was in the room (or at least probably was). | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1050 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was it something common in households? Was it a computer? Another electronic device? A telephone? Was it something personal for John? For Natasha? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 249 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was it something common in households? In quite a few households, yes Was it a computer? Another electronic device? A telephone? none of these Was it something personal for John? I think you could say that For Natasha? probably not, or at least to a much lesser degree | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1055 Registered: 7-2006 |
So Natasha was a maid, or servant, correct? Did John just ask Natasha (in the text message? Or in the first meeting?) for something which she would know where it was? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 250 Registered: 9-2013 |
So Natasha was a maid, or servant, correct? yes. exact job description is not all that important, just that she worked for John in his house Did John just ask Natasha (in the text message? Or in the first meeting?) for something which she would know where it was? OTRT - he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was - and let's say he asked her partially in the message, partially in the first meeting. I don't know if that sentence makes any meaning to anyone, but it was the best I could do without giving it all away. | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1066 Registered: 10-2013 |
Did he ask her to check something in his notebook/agenda? To bring him part of clothing? Was the item she was supposed to use something related to her job? Did John deliberately make the message incomplete, in order for Natasha to come and ask for further partial instructions? And the part of the instructions he gave her in the presence of Otis and Alice was meant to develop the misconception about Andrew? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 252 Registered: 9-2013 |
Did he ask her to check something in his notebook/agenda? To bring him part of clothing? no to both, OTWT Was the item she was supposed to use something related to her job? not strictly, and there is a FA here Did John deliberately make the message incomplete, in order for Natasha to come and ask for further partial instructions? YES!! And the part of the instructions he gave her in the presence of Otis and Alice was meant to develop the misconception about Andrew? AND YES!!! Excellent questions! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1072 Registered: 10-2013 |
Was Natasha supposed to use the item? Was the item useable? Was the item photo album? So that Natasha could say she saw Andrew? | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1056 Registered: 7-2006 |
Did John ask Natasha to go look for something? (e.g. some item he said he wanted) Or look up some information in some place? Or look through a window somewhere? Or inspect any photographs? Or video / CCTV? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 255 Registered: 9-2013 |
Was Natasha supposed to use the item? Was the item useable? "use" is a very strange word for it. As is "item", when it comes to that. Was the item photo album? So that Natasha could say she saw Andrew? no, but very good idea! Did John ask Natasha to go look for something? in a way, yes (e.g. some item he said he wanted) but not this Or look up some information in some place? no Or look through a window somewhere? no Or inspect any photographs? Or video / CCTV? no | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1083 Registered: 10-2013 |
he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was Is the second *something* a living creature? A human? A pet? Did John say Natasha to feed the pet, when the "pet" part was texted and "feed" part was spoken and Otis and Alice assumed John was refering to Andrew? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 256 Registered: 9-2013 |
he asked her to do *something* with *something* she knew where was Is the second *something* a living creature? YES A human? A pet? AND YES! Good job! Did John say Natasha to feed the pet, when the "pet" part was texted and "feed" part was spoken and Otis and Alice assumed John was refering to Andrew? This is very close, and I think close enough that we can actually call it a... *****SPOILER***** Otis, John and Alice are having breakfast in the garden of John's house. They are all visiting, along with Andrew, who has yet to get up. Impatient, John suggests they go bring him down. Secretly, though, he has already murdered him. As he is speaking to the others about Andrew, he candidly sends an SMS to his maid, Natasha, who is further down in the garden: "WORRIED ABOUT THE DOG - SOME HELP PLEASE?". Natasha sees the SMS and approaches them, but before she can say anything, John says "could you just go upstairs and check on him? I think he's still sleeping. Just wake him up and leave the door open." Natasha nods and walks into the house. There, she walks to the dog's casket, finds it there, wakes it up and returns to the others, saying "Everything is OK. He was sleeping, but he's awake now. I'm sure he'll be out eventually." John thanks her and sends her off to do an errand. As Andrew doesn't show up, Otis decides to check on him again. He discoveres that he has been murdered and runs back into the garden: OTIS: "Andrew has been murdered!" ALICE: "John did it!" OTIS: "But Alice, he couldn't have!" ALICE: "Yes, he could! And if I hadn't discovered, he would have had to murder again!" Alice has realised what kind of dual-reality trick John had been playing in order to secure the perfect alibi. And then she realises that for this to work, he would have had to murder Natasha as well at some point, before she could reveal that she never checked on Andrew, only the dog. Whew! That was a long one! Thank you so much for playing everyone, especially Redwine and Plebeian, who stuck to it all the way to the end. And congrats to Redwine on finally nailing the last bit! | ||
| Redwine (Redwine)
New member Username: Redwine Post Number: 1096 Registered: 10-2013 |
That was much fun. And very creative idea of getting away with murder. | ||
| Plebeian (Plebeian)
New member Username: Plebeian Post Number: 1057 Registered: 7-2006 |
Nice one - I do enjoy a good murder :-) |
