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miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 5:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You said he had to lift her, "and"... and throw her? and drop her? carry her? and keep her "lifted" for a certain period of time?
Did he not lift her as high as expected? as long as expected?
Is the task something her family witnesses?
Did they end up getting engaged/married?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 8:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

were they Greek? no

You said he had to lift her, "and"... and throw her? and drop her? carry her? this one and keep her "lifted" for a certain period of time? and, as a consequence, this one
Did he not lift her as high as expected? no as long as expected? yope. This is certainly very much ORT, but there was a specific task for him to do. You are very close
Is the task something her family witnesses? yes
Did they end up getting engaged/married? unfortunately not
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to lift her:
onto a horse?
onto a carriage?
some other vehicle?

Did he have to lift her
onto / into / over / out of something?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to lift her:
onto a horse?
onto a carriage?
some other vehicle?

Did he have to lift her
onto / into / over / out of something? no to all these

HINT: the lifting was only a part of the task but not the most important one.
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they have to engage in a wrestling match?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they have to engage in a wrestling match? no
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a sport involved here?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to carry her to a certain place? to their wedding site? to their new home together? to her parents home? to, uhhh, a vehicle or boat or something?
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something's tickling my brain...

Is elopement relevant?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 7:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a sport involved here?no

Did he have to carry her to a certain place? YES!
to their wedding site? no
to their new home together? no
to her parents home? no
to, uhhh, a vehicle or boat or something? and no


Is elopement relevant? I am very sorry, but no
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to carry her to his old house?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 2:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hope I'm not backtracking too much, but just to be clear...
Did he refuse to take the drug BECAUSE he thought he was already strong enough? Did she know that he didn't take the drug? relevant?
Did she want to lose weight to help him in carrying her?

Was his failure not carrying her all the way to the destination?
Have we established what her failure was? Did she not lose as much weight as she wanted?
Or was the failure simply that they didn't get engaged/married?

This place he's carrying her-- indoors? outdoors? natural (as in, a park or something)? man-made? a house? a building?
Is it somewhere he's been before? she's been before? Is it a long distance that he's carrying her? cm/inches/feet/yards/meters/km/miles?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to carry her to his old house? no

Hope I'm not backtracking too much, but just to be clear... Sure you aren't. Whatever you want.
Did he refuse to take the drug BECAUSE he thought he was already strong enough? exactly so Did she know that he didn't take the drug?yes relevant? yesish
Did she want to lose weight to help him in carrying her? BINGO! Yes.

Was his failure not carrying her all the way to the destination? no
Have we established what her failure was? no, not yet Did she not lose as much weight as she wanted? I do not know. She did her best to lose as much weight as she could.
Or was the failure simply that they didn't get engaged/married? yes, also, but that was not the only point

This place he's carrying her-- indoors? nooutdoors? yes natural (as in, a park or something)? yes man-made? no a house? a building? and therefore neither of these
Is it somewhere he's been before? irrelevant, probably not she's been before? yes for the beginning, probably not for the end Is it a long distance that he's carrying her? yes, quitecm/inches/feet/yards/meters/km/miles? I would say many yards/meters up to a km/mile

Excellent questions, Miroac, and a big leap towards the solution. Congratulations!
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he have to carry her from her parents' house? Is the carrying intended to demonstrate that he's strong enough to take care of/protect her?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he have to carry her from her parents' house? no Is the carrying intended to demonstrate that he's strong enough to take care of/protect her? it may appear so, but this is not the true reason
Arjun (Jun)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is there a true reason (apart from tradition/ culture) that our man has to carry our his lady?
Is this fundamental to their marriage? Their marriage in particular? Or some marriages, e.g. from their culture/country?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is there a true reason (apart from tradition/ culture) that our man has to carry his lady? yes
Is this fundamental to their marriage? Yes Their marriage in particular? and yes again Or some marriages, e.g. from their culture/country? no
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they make it to the place he was carrying her? Did he have to do something after they got there? Did she? If so, is this action what they failed at?
Was her family waiting for them at the place?

Is there a volcano involved? Sacrificing a virgin? (I hope not, but thought I'd at least check.)
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it relevant where he was carrying her from? Was she in any danger that he was taking her out of?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they make it to the place he was carrying her? yes Did he have to do something after they got there? no Did she? no If so, is this action what they failed at? the only point was that he had to carry her to a certain place. They did not have to do anything else. He did carry her to that place. However, they failed to achieve the goal they both wanted.
Was her family waiting for them at the place? no for the place of arrival, yes for the place of departure

Is there a volcano involved? no, but you are very, very close Sacrificing a virgin? (I hope not, but thought I'd at least check.) but no to this

Is it relevant where he was carrying her from? only in general terms Was she in any danger that he was taking her out of? noish
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was just joking about the volcano. Something about "Joe versus the Volcano" came to mind. Hmm. Neat.

Something very much like a volcano? like a mountain?
Did he have to carry her to the top of a mountain?
Did he/they slip and fall? and die?
Did they fail to get married because they died somehow?
Dref (Dref)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 2:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he have to show he could carry her out of a burning building?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something very much like a volcano? yes, very much so like a mountain? exactly. It was a mountain.
Did he have to carry her to the top of a mountain? and bingo again!
Did he/they slip and fall? no and die? yes
Did they fail to get married because they died somehow? yes!

Very good questions. We are almost there!
Did he have to show he could carry her out of a burning building? no
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die from a heart attack / sheer exhaustion of carrying her bulk?
Amd she died from the resulting fall?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die from a heart attack / sheer exhaustion exhaustion. Exactly! of carrying her bulk? Yes.
Amd she died from the resulting fall? no, from another cause.
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she die as a result of:

her weight?
the altitude?
fear of heights?
choking on her vomit?
a broken heart?
suicide after her fiancee died?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or maybe she simply died from exposure or..

made a hearty meal for a Mountain Lion?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she die as a result of:

her weight? no
the altitude? no
fear of heights? no
choking on her vomit? no
a broken heart? yes!
suicide no after her fiancee died?

Or maybe she simply died from exposure or.. no

made a hearty meal for a Mountain Lion?
no
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They failed. The drugs didn't make him strong enough nor the fasting make her light enough.

He died of exhaustion carrying her up the mountain (as per local ritual) and she died from a broken heart?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 8:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They failed. Yes The drugs didn't make him strong enough Yes nor the fasting make her light enough. and Yes again.

He died of exhaustion carrying her up the mountain Yes (as per local ritual)noish and she died from a broken heart? Yes


That's it, in a nutshell. The only thing which is still to be established is why did they have to undertake such an, um, dubious feat. Once you reveal this, I'll $poil.
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More recap; correct me if I'm wrong:
Her family is at the bottom of the mountain.
They watch him carry her up the mountain.
This action is specific to their marriage/engagement-- it's not something others have undertaken before.

Is it relevant who came up with the idea for him to carry her up the mountain? Did he? she? her family? others? Is this a new idea/ritual/custom/action? Has anyone ever done it before? Will anyone ever do it again?
Is his family relevant?
Are any members of her family relevant individually? such as her father/mother/siblings/...?
Were either of them married before? relevant?
Do either of them have children? relevant?
Have we established yet why he didn't take the drug?
Are either of their ages relevant? Is he relatively older/younger/same age as her?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More recap; correct me if I'm wrong: With pleasure, but as I've checked you are mostly right
Her family is at the bottom of the mountain. yes, there is at least one member of her family and many other people.
They watch him carry her up the mountain. Yes.
This action is specific to their marriage/engagement-- it's not something others have undertaken before. I think the best answer here would be yope. We have already established that this was not a common custom in the region, yet it was not specific only to the marriage of these two particular persons.

Is it relevant who came up with the idea for him to carry her up the mountain? yes, very much. Did he? no she? no her family? yes, and, more specifically.... others? no Is this a new idea yes /ritual yes /customnoish /action? yes Has anyone ever done it before? yes to having tried to accomplish the task, no to actually having accomplished it Will anyone ever do it again? I hope not
Is his family relevant? no
Are any members of her family relevant individually? yes such as her father this one /mother/siblings/...?
Were either of them married before? norelevant? noish
Do either of them have children? no relevant? noish
Have we established yet why he didn't take the drug? yes, we did - he thought that he was strong enough to accomplish the task without it
Are either of their ages relevant? both of them are very young Is he relatively older/younger/same age probably this as her?
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, her father came up with this worthiness test, to see who, in his opinion, was truly worthy to marry his daughter?
Had her father himself attempted this before, with his wife?
Has she had other suitors who have tried to carry her to the top? and they failed?
But she really loved this young man, and therefore she really wanted him to succeed, much moreso than with any previous guys?
Is that pretty much everthing?
Wow.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, her father came up with this worthiness test, to see who, in his opinion, was truly worthy to marry his daughter? yesish
Had her father himself attempted this before, with his wife? no
Has she had other suitors who have tried to carry her to the top? yes and they failed? yes
But she really loved this young man, and therefore she really wanted him to succeed, much moreso than with any previous guys? exactly so.
Is that pretty much everthing?
Wow. Yes, it is indeed, and good enough for a


*************SPOILER*************


My puzzle was based on the old Breton lai (a short, rhymed romance) by Marie de France, the oldest known French poetess who lived in the 12th century, and was probably active in the court of Henry II of England. The lai in question is called Les Deuz Amanz (The Two Lovers) and it goes like this: A widowed king has an only daughter and loves her so much that he cannot bear the idea of her marrying and leaving him. He therefore sets a condition that she can marry only the man able to carry her in his arms, without resting,all the way up a very high mountain. Many suitors try to accomplish this feat but none is successful. The girl, however, secretly falls in love with a son of a count, who asks her to run away with him but she refuses because she doesn't want to upset her father. She sends her suitor to her aunt who prepares a strength potion to help him succeed in the task required by her father. Meanwhile, the girl prepares herself by trying to lose as much weight as possible and wears very little clothing on the day of the climb. Half the region, including her father, gather around the mountain to witness the feat. The young man gives the king’s daughter the potion bottle to hold; he takes her half way up the mountain and begins to grow weak; she wants him to drink the potion but, out of pride, he refuses; in spite of her repeated pleas, he doesn't drink the potion and dies of exhaustion right on the top of the mountain. Heartbroken, the girl dies by her lover's side, everyone grieves greatly and the two young lovers are buried on the mountain's top.

For those who prefer fine poetry to my awkward prose, I insert a link to an English translation.

here

For those who prefer poetry in old Norman, or are pure masochists, I insert the link to the original text.
here


Thank all of you for joining me in, especially Simon and Miroac for successfully carrying the weight of the puzzle up to the top of the mountain and not dying in the attempt.

P.S. I owe you and explanation, Simon. At the beginning of the puzzle you used the word "medcine" I asked you whether you had misspelled the word on purpose, and promised to explain in the $poiler. The girl in Marie’s poem asks her lover «ami, bevez vostre mescine!» (friend, drink your medicine). I therefore strongly suspected that you already knew what was brewing.
miroac (Miroac)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good story, Alizon.

I think the "standard questions" always need to include "Does someone die in this?" It always seems to me like the more interesting LPs involve someone dying, for some reason.
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good story, Alizon. Thank you, Miroac!
I think the "standard questions" always need to include "Does someone die in this?" It always seems to me like the more interesting LPs involve someone dying, for some reason. I have the same impression, too. Perhaps it is because most of us LP participants are freaks creative and unconventional people
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"The girl in Marie’s poem asks her lover «ami, bevez vostre mescine!» (friend, drink your medicine). I therefore strongly suspected that you already knew what was brewing."

Thank you for the explanation - Now all is revealed!

Thank you too for such an engaging puzzle!

*Footnote*
Perhaps the weighty widowed daughter could have succeeded if she had been administered a daily dose of Woubit's "weightless poetry" over the weeks preceding the event. This may have have induced sufficient nausea to have reduced her calorie intake to the desired level!


:)
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Simon:
I myself am a great lover of weightless poetry; maybe this is the cause nobody would dare call me anorectic and if I was the unfortunate damsel, the poor knight would probably have collapsed already at the base of the mountain.
Arjun (Jun)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle, Alizon, and a most gripping story :)
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alizon
I got it completely wrong; maybe weightless poetry induces comfort eating instead.

Whatever, please continue to enjoy both your food and your consumption of weightless poetry. And Woubit, all is forgiven. I too enjoy (some) weightless poetry but "moderation in all things" is probably the order of the day.


:)
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think that the lai in question counts as "weightless" poetry, for what I hope are obvious reasons. I thought this might run for several archives yet, and am full of admiration for the people who arrived so swiftly at the solution :)

The metres of 12th century French verse are complex indeed; by comparison, the double dactyl is child's play. But, lest this excellent puzzle should be thought to contain only massive poetry, I offer:

Higgledy piggledy
Les Deux Amants, though they
Perished in ways that were
Wretched enough,
Left us a moral:
Drink all of your medicine -
Superheroical
Stunts are pure bluff.

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