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Archive through March 15, 2005Barbara Johannessen 22 3-15-05  1:54 am
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Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dref
Panhandling? No.

Barbara
Some tangible object is required, strictly speaking... Is this a particular object? Yope.
one of a general type? Yope. It's some generic object, but with particular characteristics. And it is, strictly speaking, not only one object.

An easily portable object? Yes.
something you could put in
your shirt pocket? Unlikely.
a coat pocket? Possibly, depends on coat.
a purse? Possibly, depends on purse.
a backpack? Yes.

A supposedly portable object that isn't really terribly portable at all? (I'm thinking of some of the bigger boom-boxes, here; you can carry them around if you really want to, but most folks wouldn't, since they weigh 10 or 15 pounds.) No, you can carry it around very easily.
Tony (E20)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the portable object make a noise? which some people might find objectionable?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the portable object make a noise? which some people might find objectionable? Yes, indeed.
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A cell phone?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A cell phone? No.
Tony (E20)
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Music making device? Casette tape player? CD Player? MP3 player?

Musical instrument? Mouth organ?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Music making device? Casette tape player? CD Player? MP3 player?
Musical instrument? Mouth organ? Nothing like this, sorry. And I should add that not the item alone produces the noise.
Tommy Petersson (Tommyp)
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some interference between the item and something else? radio waves relevant?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some interference between the item and something else? Yes.
radio waves relevant? No. It's much simpler than you think.
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the carrier of the item make the same noise, at the same time?

Is the noise loud?

Is the loudness offensive or the meaning of the noise (does the noise have a meaning)?

Hello I'm new here :-)
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the carrier of the item make the same noise, at the same time? I'm afraid I did not get this. The noise is a result of item(s) interfering with some other item. The carrier of the item(s) does not carry them for the purpose of making noise, but as it happens, the items produce noise while being used.

Is the noise loud? Opinions may vary on that. At least it is not unusually loud.

Is the loudness offensive or the meaning of the noise (does the noise have a meaning)? Neither. The noise is not really offending anybody, but disturbing

Hello I'm new here :-) Van harte welkom! ;)
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the item precious, or is just an ordinary thing almost everybody has?

do you actually carry them around (in your hand ...) of do you put them away (in a backpack, purse, ...)?

does time make a difference (do you get the fines all day or only at night, between 9am and 5pm...)?

(i think i might have read about this, but i don't remember it anymore)
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the item precious, or is just an ordinary thing almost everybody has? Almost everybody has several of such items, though some of them might be really expensive.

do you actually carry them around Yesish. (in your hand No....) of do you put them away No. (in a backpack, purse, ...)?

does time make a difference Yes... (do you get the fines all day or only at night, between 9am and 5pm...) .. but it is not that regular.?

(i think i might have read about this, but i don't remember it anymore) Of course you might have, and if you ever been to Keulen, there's a good chance you came across this area.
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 2:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the noise it makes disturbing to mankind or others?

Do you wear them?

On your feet, hair, pants?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the noise it makes disturbing to mankind or others? Yes.
Do you wear them? I do not at the moment, but usually people wear these items.
On your feet, hair, pants? On the feet.
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Squeeking shoes?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Squeeking shoes? Yesish. Clapping shoes, first of all, like high-heels.
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, you cannot wear noisy shoes in this area?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, you cannot wear noisy shoes in this area? Exactly. (during some periods of time, not all the day)
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything more to deduce?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything more to deduce? Yes. Who will be disturbed by the noise from the shoes, and why?
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For the who question: human or animals? large animals, small animals, mammils, reptiles, insects, worms, nightanimals?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For the who question: human or animals? Human animals :) large animals, small animals, mammils, reptiles, insects, worms, nightanimals?
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Old ladies?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Old ladies? Could be some old ladies among them, but there is no reason why not also some young men.
Annelies Horckmans (Annls)
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The humans who are disturbed by it, is it because of mental problems, fysical problems, health, danger (like falling rocks because of the echo)?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The humans who are disturbed by it, is it because of mental problems, fysical problems, health, danger (like falling rocks because of the echo)? Nothing of this. The noise is not really creating a danger for them, but they would find it annoying.
Fred Z (Dref)
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

People with sensitive ears?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

People with sensitive ears? No(ish). Physical properties of these people are not so much relevant.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, is why the people-who-would-be-disturbed-by-noisy-shoes are in the area relevant? Is the area dedicated to some pursuit that noisy shoes interferes with? Not dedicated to, but the preferred location for?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, is why the people-who-would-be-disturbed-by-noisy-shoes are in the area relevant? Yes, though there could be a false assumption behind your question.
Is the area dedicated to some pursuit that noisy shoes interferes with? Yes, with the same remark as above.
Not dedicated to, but the preferred location for? Dedicated.
Name? (Sigh)
Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the people involved in a seasonal activity?
Are they listening to something else?
Are the shoes making noise on:
floors?
pavement?
sidewalk?
turf?
grass?
glass?
wood? (ie. dock)
other?

The people who would be annoyed are distinguished from the people who won't by:
location?
age?
gender?
race?
religion?
occupation?
activity?
personality?
other?
would everyone be annoyed?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the people involved in a seasonal activity? No to seasonal, but yes to activity.
Are they listening to something else? Yes.
Are the shoes making noise on:
floors?
pavement? This one, mainly.
sidewalk?
turf?
grass?
glass?
wood? (ie. dock)
other?

The people who would be annoyed are distinguished from the people who won't by:
location? This one,
age?
gender?
race?
religion?
occupation?
activity? .. and this one.
personality?
other?
would everyone be annoyed? No.

Good questions, and welcome to the puzzle, Sigh!
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are these people praying?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are these people praying? No.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Echoes relevant? acoustics?

Is the sound that shoes make on the pavement louder in someparts of this area than it is in others? Is there a hollow under the pavement in some? or one? spot?

Is the noise bothersome in the same place as the shoe-wearers are, or is the noise bothersome in an area above? below? beside that area?

The Possible FA's: that the shoes are noisy? (is it the pavement that actually creates the noise, not the shoes?) That there are actually people present who would be disturbed by the sound? (Is there one person? every person? no persons, in fact, but someone was afraid that there might be, and instituted the ban unnecessarily?)
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Echoes relevant? No. acoustics? As sound is an acoustic effect, yes.

Is the sound that shoes make on the pavement louder in someparts of this area than it is in others? Yes.
Is there a hollow under the pavement in some? or one? spot? Yes.

Is the noise bothersome in the same place as the shoe-wearers are No., or is the noise bothersome in an area above? below? This one. Good question! beside that area?

The Possible FA's: that the shoes are noisy? (is it the pavement that actually creates the noise, not the shoes?) Well, yes, the pavement is vibrating, but this vibration is induced by shoes.
That there are actually people present who would be disturbed by the sound? (Is there one person? every person? no persons, in fact, but someone was afraid that there might be, and instituted the ban unnecessarily?) There are actually people present, but ..
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So click-y, clop-y, clatter-y shoes are banned because of the noise they cause in a room? (rooms? tunnel? other type of area?) on the level below the area where the shoes are banned, right?

"There are actually people present, but..." Has anyone actually complained about the noise? or is it a pre-emptive action (We'll ban the shoes just in case someone might find it offensive someday.)?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So click-y, clop-y, clatter-y shoes are banned because of the noise they cause in a room? Yes. (rooms? tunnel? other type of area? One room.) on the level below the area where the shoes are banned, right? Precisely so.

"There are actually people present, but..." Has anyone actually complained about the noise? Yes. or is it a pre-emptive action (We'll ban the shoes just in case someone might find it offensive someday.)? Many people have complained.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And I believe that you said that the loud shoes are only banned at certain times of the day, too?

Are these times the same as when something specific is going on in the lower room?
a concert?
lecture?
meeting of some sort?
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And I believe that you said that the loud shoes are only banned at certain times of the day, too? Right.

Are these times the same as when something specific is going on in the lower room? Yes.
a concert? This one.
lecture?
meeting of some sort?

Finish line crossed. Congratulations!

Below the ground is the main hall of the Cologne Philharmonic, and these morons of architects have created a nice resonance body for any vibration of the ground above the ceiling. $poiler is on the way.
Barbara Johannessen Bailey (Rabrab)
Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I bet that it looked really good on paper ...
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SPOILER - Six Feet Under

In Cologne, Germany, there is an area where you can get fined for something that is regarded completely normal everywhere in the world and done by billions of people every day. What is it?

It is walking.

During some periods of the day the Heinrich Böll Square (in the very city center, between Cathedral, railway station and Rhine terraces) is closed for walkers, though you may still cross it on inline skates or bicycle.

The reason is that underneath the Heinrich Böll Square the main hall of the Cologne Philharmonic is situated. The hall, build between 1980 and 1986, is famous for its marvellous acoustic, but has also the ability to amplify any noise coming from above. This goes to the extent that even footsteps on the pavement can disturb the music performance in the hall.

So it is strictly forbidden to walk on the square during a performance. Local police is there to make you understand that the respective signs are not a joke, and if you insist to walk across the square they might even fine you.

Of course it would be possible to put a noise absorbing mat on the square, or a layer of absorbing material between pavement and hall -- but this would not be Cologne then, would it?

Thanks to all who participated.

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