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Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike and John had similar jobs. Mike did nothing and lost a large sum of money. Earlier, John had done nothing and gained a large sum of money. What, if any, was the relationship between the two? What jobs did Mike and John do?
Lynne (Lynne)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Traders on the stock exchange?
Stephen (Stevish)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mike and John Know each other?
Were they related by blood or marriage?
Did they work for the same people?
Did John's gain cause Mike's loss? Did it affect Mike's loss at all?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Traders on the stock exchange? no
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mike and John Know each other? I don't know for sure but largely irrel

Were they related by blood or marriage? no
Did they work for the same people? no
Did John's gain cause Mike's loss? yes Did it affect Mike's loss at all? yes
Stephen (Stevish)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John gain the same amount of money that Mike lost? Was it Mike's money that John gained?

When you say they did nothing to gain/lose the money, does that mean they did nothing when they gained/lost the money? Did they have to do anything to set up the situation that caused them to lose/gain money? Was it a bet? Was it set up for them by someone else?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John gain the same amount of money that Mike lost? technically no, but beware a fa

Was it Mike's money that John gained? another technical no: it may help to find out who did gain Mike's money

When you say they did nothing to gain/lose the money, does that mean they did nothing when they gained/lost the money? the doing nothing in each case came before the losing/gaining of the money

Did they have to do anything to set up the situation that caused them to lose/gain money? yes Was it a bet? no Was it set up for them by someone else? no
Alice Black (Tink)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it the doing nothing that caused the loss of money?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it the doing nothing that caused the loss of money? yes
Stephen (Stevish)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the government gain Mikes money? a club? an individual? a bookie?

Did someone indeed gain Mike's money?

Did someone lose the money that John gained? The government? a club? an individual? a bookie?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the government gain Mikes money? no a club? yes-ish: certainly a body of people an individual? no-ish: a body of people on an individual's behalf a bookie? no, no betting involved

Did someone indeed gain Mike's money? yes

Did someone lose the money that John gained? The government? a club? an individual? a bookie? "lose " is not the normal word we would use, but he gained it from an assortment of individual people over time.
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a bank involved? Did John inherit the money?
Mo (Hakkunamatata)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just clearing of certain things....

Are Mike and John both Humans? Male? Does there profession matter? Are they in the same profession? Is it relevent at all? If so what they do is related to one of these...

artistic/musical/writer?
Banking/financial/real estate?
Clerical/Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation ?
Food Service ?
Other ?

Where they competitors in their profession/business?

Fictional? Factual?

Did they gain or lose money literally or the money is some kind off investment(gain) that where made on their work (whatever they were doing) or taken back(loss) from their work

The meaning of doing nothing in this scenario is by no effort of theirs they lost/gained the money? Is this all relevent at all?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a bank involved? Did John inherit the money? no to both
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Mike and John both Humans? yes Male? yes Does there profession matter? yes Are they in the same profession? yes Is it relevent at all? yes If so what they do is related to one of these...

artistic/musical/writer? yes

Banking/financial/real estate?
Clerical/Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation ?
Food Service ?
Other ?

no to rest

Where they competitors in their profession/business? no

Fictional? so weird that you couldn't make this up! Factual? yes!

Did they gain or lose money literally or the money is some kind off investment(gain) that where made on their work (whatever they were doing) or taken back(loss) from their work er ... if I understand you right .... yes, the losses and gains are literal losses and gains, with real money involved; investment, deduction, taxation not relevant

The meaning of doing nothing in this scenario is by no effort of theirs they lost/gained the money?
depends what you mean by effort, I suppose

Is this all relevent at all? YES, hugely
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are copyrights important?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are copyrights important? YES!
Mo (Hakkunamatata)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fictional? so weird that you couldn't make this up! Factual? yes!

Just clearing things off the plate, you never know. J

artistic? musical? writer?

Is the money that they gain/lose royalty related?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

artistic? musical? writer? yes to all three but a big resounding yes to the middle one

Is the money that they gain/lose royalty related? in one case, yes: in one case, no
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mike forget to get the copyright on his work? Did John get money because he owned the copyright to something?
Did John have the copyright on something Mike published?

Did John gain the money because someone (Mike?) was using his copyrighted song/book/...?

Did Mike lose money because he couldn't sell anything of his work because someone else (John?) already had a copyright on that? was he fined for copyright violation?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mike forget to get the copyright on his work?
on the right lines, but strictly no: nobody forgot anything

Did John get money because he owned the copyright to something? yes

Did John have the copyright on something Mike published? yes

Did John gain the money because someone (Mike?) was using his copyrighted song/book/...? technically no, but beware FA

Did Mike lose money because he couldn't sell anything of his work because someone else (John?) already had a copyright on that? yope was he fined for copyright violation? yope
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there only one relevant song/.../...?
Was it a song? book? poem? song lyrics? a cover version of an existing song?
Did John and Mike work on the same song/.../...? Was John just faster with finishing it?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there only one relevant song/.../...? yes, one relevant item
Was it a song? book? poem? song lyrics? none of these

a cover version of an existing song? yope

Did John and Mike work on the same song/.../...? they did not collaborate, no Was John just faster with finishing it? he finished first, though I don't know how long it took him
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they use an existing melody? part of one?
Since this is the Mozart year - did they use anything composed by Mozart?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they use an existing melody? part of one?
Since this is the Mozart year - did they use anything composed by Mozart? no to all
Stephen (Stevish)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Mike Fined?
Did Mike Violate a copyright?

Was the item in question a title? a name (Like Metallica, Alan Jackson, etc)? a graphic? a character? a style of shoe? A recipie for grandma's tequilla pancakes?
Laura Kozma (Lkozma)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both John and Mike songwriters? Is Mike a publisher? Is John?

Does this have anything to do with public domain copyright law?

Did lawyers get Mike's money? A publisher? A record company?

Does any of this have to do recording contracts?

Was sampling used?

Offbase thought: Did John accuse Mike of ripping off Mike's song? There's a real life case of this, but John lost. (Mike = John Fogerty, just to confuse things...)

Another weird thought: Did someone have to change a name? I'm thinking of how Chicago Transit Authority had to become Chicago.
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 1:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Mike Fined? not really
Did Mike Violate a copyright? yes, arguably so

Was the item in question a title? no a name (Like Metallica, Alan Jackson, etc)? no a graphic? no a character? no a style of shoe? no A recipie for grandma's tequilla pancakes? no

:)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are both John and Mike songwriters? yope Is Mike a publisher? not really Is John? not really

Does this have anything to do with public domain copyright law? only tangentially to do with the PD but I'm no expert on copyright law I'm afraid

Did lawyers get Mike's money? incidental fees, I imagine A publisher? yes A record company? no

Does any of this have to do recording contracts? no

Was sampling used? no

Offbase thought: Did John accuse Mike of ripping off Mike's song? There's a real life case of this, but John lost. (Mike = John Fogerty, just to confuse things...) no. John didn't take part in any proceedings

Another weird thought: Did someone have to change a name? I'm thinking of how Chicago Transit Authority had to become Chicago. aaaah I remember hearing some stories like that, but in this case, no
Christiane Scharf (0815)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the item in question a piece of music? Some kind of equipment? A music style?

Did they both have the same idea (independent of each other?), and John got it published first? Did they alter the lyrics of an existing song? the melody? the type of performance (something like the heavy-metal version of a classical opera?)?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the item in question a piece of music? yes Some kind of equipment? no A music style? no

Did they both have the same idea (independent of each other?), and John got it published first? yope

Did they alter the lyrics of an existing song? no the melody? no the type of performance (something like the heavy-metal version of a classical opera?)? no
Laura Kozma (Lkozma)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the song title the thing in question? Some of the lyrics? Melody? Guitar (or other musical instrument) riff?

Are Mike and John musicians?

Are Mike & John their real names?

Ooh, just had a nice thought: is John "John Cage"?
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the song title the thing in question? no Some of the lyrics? no Melody? no Guitar (or other musical instrument) riff? no

Are Mike and John musicians? yes

Are Mike & John their real names? yes

Ooh, just had a nice thought: is John "John Cage" very nice thought indeed: yes
Laura Kozma (Lkozma)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I have it then, although I don't know anything about Mike.

John Cage had a musical piece. I believe it was called "Silence". He would sit at the piano and not play for something like 4 minutes. The purpose of this exercise was to hear the music around you, in the audience, outside, etc.

I'm assuming Mike tried the same thing, although maybe he called it "Quiet" instead. :-)
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I have it then, although I don't know anything about Mike.

John Cage had a musical piece. I believe it was called "Silence". He would sit at the piano and not play for something like 4 minutes. The purpose of this exercise was to hear the music around you, in the audience, outside, etc.

I'm assuming Mike tried the same thing, although maybe he called it "Quiet" instead. :-)

Actually those are not strictly the names of the pieces, but you've got the gist of it. Nice job. You may just want to finish the story and explain the bit about the money, and how poor old Mike ended up more than a hundred thousand pounds worse off. After all, nobody can sue anyone for being silent, can they? The thing is, poor Mike made one costly mistake .... $poiler to follow soon
Lewis Zeiters (Lzeiters)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

actually, i believe Cage's work was entitled 4:13, for the 4 minute 13 second duration of silence that is directed.

Did Mike happen to select the same title for his version of silence?
Laura Kozma (Lkozma)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, not sure if we're still playing or not...

Did Mike do something that required him to get a copyright? And that's what got the lawyers and publishers involved? Did he put his name on it as a writer? Was it on a CD (or downloadable)?

Was his version exactly like John Cage's? Was the silence shorter? Longer?

I would think that if Mike played his number at Karaoke Night, or at a private birthday party, nobody would care.
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

actually, i believe Cage's work was entitled 4:13, for the 4 minute 13 second duration of silence that is directed.

4'33'' in fact. His book on the subject was called Silence.

Did Mike happen to select the same title for his version of silence? not the same title, no: it was not even the same length - but you are VERY close. He did something which you might have thought would let him off the hook but in fact was his downfall
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, not sure if we're still playing or not...
if you like! still a few finishing touches to the tale but I think you've clinched it below ...

Did Mike do something that required him to get a copyright? yes And that's what got the lawyers and publishers involved? yes Did he put his name on it as a writer? YES! Was it on a CD (or downloadable)?

Was his version exactly like John Cage's? no Was the silence shorter? yes Longer? no

I would think that if Mike played his number at Karaoke Night, or at a private birthday party, nobody would care. absolutely.
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

********SPOILER*******

It is a true story. John is John Cage, the experimental composer. Mike is Mike Batt, light composer and humorist famous for (among other things) the Wombles theme tune.

In 1952, John Cage wrote the now notorious piece 4'33'', which consisted entirely of silence. He published and copyrighted it, saying "I have nothing to say, and I am saying it, and that is poetry".

John Cage died in 1992. But ten years later, Batt decided to include a minute's silence on one of his albums. This would have been fine, of course, except that as a comic gesture, he put "Batt/Cage" in his attribution. This alerted Cage's publisher, Nicholas Riddle of Peters, who threatened to sue for stealing an idea. The silence was not intellectual property, but the IDEA of silence apparently was.

Batt protested briefly that the Cage in his credits was not John Cage, but with the balance of probabilities and the assishness of the law staring him in the face, he settled out of court and paid over £100,000 to Cage's estate.

Afterwards, Batt is reported to have said "Mine is a much better silent piece. I have been able to say in one minute what Cage could only say in four minutes and 33 seconds."

Cage loved irony, and I can imagine him whistling the Wombles theme tune from beyond the grave.

You can buy both pieces on CD.


:)
Laura Kozma (Lkozma)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Funny (for Mike Batt parts) and ridiculous (for publishers/lawyers parts)!

Incidentally, I do NOT recommend that Mike Batt try this as his next work: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20060102/longsong_hum.html
Howard Wilde (Woodworm)
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hahahah!

I think that lawyers should be forced to listen to that one all the way through before they start their proceedings.

It gives the idea of charging by the hour a whole new meaning.

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