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Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1087
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I received an email from a colleague today, informing the entire team about something that might come in very useful one day. Being a lateral thinker you will immediately spot a flaw …

I imagine it is an old urban myth that many will be familiar with. However it's a new one on me.
Superman (Superman)
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Username: Superman

Post Number: 55
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

something is
- tangible?
- used for medicine
- " finance
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1088
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

something is
- tangible? Yope
- used for medicine No
- " finance Yesish
Superman (Superman)
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Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Should the flaw already be obvious?
"Being a lateral thinker you will immediately spot a flaw … "

- is there a predecessor of this something already in existence?
- is it useful to psychiatrists such as yourself?
- is it an object?
- software?
- an idea for something?

The flaw is _____
- infeasibility
- an error in logic
- a physical error

Will you visit my other puzzles?
Rubberduck (Rubberduck)
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Post Number: 53
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the team a sports team? Work team? Team is human? Animals? Is it relevant that the email was only sent to you and not to all the team members? Is the flaw related to the fact that the email was sent to you and yet somehow informed the team of something? Was the email copied (i.e. sent) to the team members?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1089
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Superman

Should the flaw already be obvious? Noish
"Being a lateral thinker you will immediately spot a flaw … "

- is there a predecessor of this something already in existence? I honestly don't know
- is it useful to psychiatrists such as yourself? It's no more useful to me than John Doe
- is it an object? no
- software? yope
- an idea for something? Yesish

The flaw is _____
- infeasibility Yes - especially with one specific detail which you will be looking for
- an error in logic In some ways, yes
- a physical error noish

Will you visit my other puzzles? Yes, I'll have a look

Rubberduck

Is the team a sports team?
Work team? This one. The team isn't important though. The usefulness is to pretty much anybody.

Team is human? Yes
Animals? no

Is it relevant that the email was only sent to you and not to all the team members? The email was sent to everybody.

Is the flaw related to the fact that the email was sent to you and yet somehow informed the team of something? No

Was the email copied (i.e. sent) to the team members? Yes

The most relevant thing is the content of the email and how it is (supposedly) useful information to most people
Cookie (Cookie)
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Username: Cookie

Post Number: 227
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the information in the mail about viruses that are sent per email?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1092
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the information in the mail about viruses that are sent per email? No this is one is a bit different
Cookie (Cookie)
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Post Number: 228
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this "one day" a specific day? Or just a day in the future when something happens?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1093
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this "one day" a specific day? No
Or just a day in the future when something happens? Yes
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Post Number: 56
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that is useful:
- is it useful for your team
- could it be useful for someone else
- is it obsolete?
Is the email adressed directly to you? Only you?
Is it spam?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1094
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that is useful:
- is it useful for your team Useful to almost anyone at all. Having said that I don't whether it applies to other countries outside of the UK but I suspect that it does
- could it be useful for someone else Yes - see above
- is it obsolete? No
Is the email adressed directly to you? Only you?
Is it spam? It was addressed to me and all my colleagues in the team - simply because the sender thought that it would be useful. It was not spam as such.
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Post Number: 58
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this only work if it is sent by email?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1095
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this only work if it is sent by email? No, it could be communicated in any fashion
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Post Number: 51
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it something like in case of emergency do this? e.g. if your building is ever bombed hide under your desks or something
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it something like in case of emergency do this? Yes

e.g. if your building is ever bombed hide under your desks or something You've got the general idea!
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Post Number: 80
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you work with handling emergencies? The same kind of emergencies as was mentioned in the email?
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Username: ~damia~

Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok so is the potential emergency a bombing? nuclear explosion? gas leak? natual disaster?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1098
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Snoozer
Do you work with handling emergencies? The same kind of emergencies as was mentioned in the email?
My work isn't relevant, the information in the email is supposedly useful to everybody

Damia
ok so is the potential emergency a bombing? nuclear explosion? gas leak? natual disaster? No to all - but kep exploring
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Username: ~damia~

Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok would the potential emergency involve you getting physcally hurt? everyone/some people in your building hurt? the building damaged? the whole city being targeted?
Sebastepistis (Sebastepistis)
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Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it be "Check your email in case of power outages" - even though you wouldn't have electricity?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1099
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, January 05, 2007 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Damia
ok would the potential emergency involve you getting physcally hurt? Noish - potentially it could but this is not the primary concern in the scenario

everyone/some people in your building hurt? As above - the scenario would only occur to one individual at any given time

the building damaged? the whole city being targeted? No to both


Sebastepistis
Would it be "Check your email in case of power outages" - even though you wouldn't have electricity? No but thanks for contributing that one!
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Username: Tobasi

Post Number: 316
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Happy New Year Simon!
So having read this mail, you will behave differently in case of a certain emergency, right?
Is the emergency something you have allready experienced?
How many of us are likely to have experienced it: All? most? several? few? very few?
Does the emergency involve technology? if yes, something that has been used by humans for 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years?
Does the emergency involve the loss of something? of money?
In case of this emergency is there a third person involved? a bad guy?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1100
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Happy New Year Simon!
Hi Tobias - I hope you are keeping well!

So having read this mail, you will behave differently in case of a certain emergency, right? That is the idea - yes

Is the emergency something you have allready experienced? No

How many of us are likely to have experienced it: All? most? several? few? very few? Very few

Does the emergency involve technology? Yes
if yes, something that has been used by humans for 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? About the last twenty years 20 - 30 years

Does the emergency involve the loss of something? of money? Yes

In case of this emergency is there a third person involved? Yes
a bad guy? Yes!

Excellent progress!
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Username: Snoozer

Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it electronic technology, such as a computer or an ATM?
Are you being suggested a backup solution in case the technology is out of order? Not there when you need it?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1101
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it electronic technology, such as a computer Yes
or an ATM? YES!

Are you being suggested a backup solution in case the technology is out of order? Not there when you need it? No
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Username: Snoozer

Post Number: 102
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something like "Protect your ATM code at all times from strangers (bad guys) to see it" or "if you give your ATM code to this (bad) guy, he will retrieve it for you if you would ever lose it or forget it"
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1102
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something like "Protect your ATM code at all times from strangers (bad guys) to see it" or "if you give your ATM code to this (bad) guy, he will retrieve it for you if you would ever lose it or forget it"

No it's something else but as you have already established it does involve:

1. ATM machines (or Cash Points, as we call them in the the UK)

2.A "bad guy".
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Post Number: 106
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something about the bad guy that is useful? Something he can do for you?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1103
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something about the bad guy that is useful? No
Something he can do for you? No
Zephyr14 (Zephyr14)
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Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it about stealing of the PIN code? Stealing the card? Stealing money from the card?
There used to be some rumor about a clever method used by thieves, to install a third party sensor inside the ATM's slot, and thus to be able to read your card and code and everything as you use the ATM? Or maybe, thinking along the same line, installing of fake ATMs? Some kind of theft that would cost the thief more than he would possibly gain? (even though we all know that crime doesn't pay...)

Or maybe, is the bad guy impersonating a security guard from the bank?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Username: Tobasi

Post Number: 318
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tout va bien chez moi!
Does the bad guy try to: get a credit/money card? get a credit/money card number/code? imitate a signature? imitate a credit/money card? steal money from a cash point?
Does he transfer money to his bank account? get cash? get goods?
Does he use a computer? use the internet? operate near a cash point?
Does he physically meet his victims?
Does he harm his victims recurring? non-recurring?
Is the amount of money taken relevant?
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Post Number: 113
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By following the useful information, would you break the law?
Is it, for instance, an instruction how to trick the cash point? and possibly get some extra money without registering the withdrawal?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Username: Tobasi

Post Number: 319
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, sorry for double questions, I was writing my questions while Zephyr14 was posting.
Rubberduck (Rubberduck)
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Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it have to do with being forced by the bad guy to use your ATM to withdraw money? The urban myth of reversing your PIN to notify police?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1104
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Zephyr14
Is it about stealing of the PIN code? Stealing the card? Stealing money from the card? The money

There used to be some rumor about a clever method used by thieves, to install a third party sensor inside the ATM's slot, and thus to be able to read your card and code and everything as you use the ATM? No - I've heard of something similar too

Or maybe, thinking along the same line, installing of fake ATMs? No - but nice idea

Some kind of theft that would cost the thief more than he would possibly gain? (even though we all know that crime doesn't pay...) :-)

Or maybe, is the bad guy impersonating a security guard from the bank? No


Snoozer
By following the useful information, would you break the law? No (but good question)
Is it, for instance, an instruction how to trick the cash point? No
and possibly get some extra money without registering the withdrawal? No


Tobasi

Tout va bien chez moi! je suis heureux
Does the bad guy try to: get a credit/money card?
get a credit/money card number/code? Money
imitate a signature? imitate a credit/money card? steal money from a cash point? This is nearest
Does he transfer money to his bank account? get cash? get goods?
Does he use a computer? use the internet?
operate near a cash point? Yesish
Does he physically meet his victims? Yes
Does he harm his victims recurring? non-recurring?
Is the amount of money taken relevant? Not relevant

Oh, sorry for double questions, I was writing my questions while Zephyr14 was posting. aucun problème

Rubberduck
Does it have to do with being forced by the bad guy to use your ATM to withdraw money? The urban myth of reversing your PIN to notify police? YES!
Beccaann (Beccaann)
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Username: Beccaann

Post Number: 869
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the flaw be the not so unordinary circumstance of a palindromic PIN?
Beroean (Beroean)
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Username: Beroean

Post Number: 1105
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the flaw be the not so unordinary circumstance of a palindromic PIN?
YES! (Well at least that was line of thought!)


Well done everyone for getting there so quickly.

***************** SPOILER *****************

Here is the text of the email sent to me, word for word:

This sounds too good to be true but was sent to me by a friend

Subject: GOOD TO KNOW

PIN NUMBER REVERSAL (GOOD TO KNOW)

If you should ever be forced by a robber to withdraw money from an ATM

machine, you can notify the police by entering your Pin # in reverse.

For example if your pin number is 1234 then you would put in 4321. The

ATM recognizes that your pin number is backwards from the ATM card you

placed in the machine.

The machine will still give you the money you requested, but unknown to

the robber, the police will be immediately dispatched to help you.

This information was recently broadcasted on TV and it states that it

is seldom used because people don't know it exists.

Please pass this along to everyone possible



Rubberduck established the content of the email, (confirming for me that it is an urban myth) and Beccaann established the immediate flaw: what if your PIN is a palindrome e.g 2222?
Zephyr14 (Zephyr14)
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Username: Zephyr14

Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Snopes does mention that in the draft for this project they allegedly had workarounds for that case, though I couldn't imagine any discrete, obvious ones. They rightly say, though, that when you're in danger, it's not that easy to recall your PIN number and reverse it in your head!

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