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Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 2479
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's been a while since I was here. Hello again to some, hello for the first time to the rest.

And a puzzle statement:

That's where the victory was.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 2480
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 3:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can tell it's been a while - I forgot to add my name to the puzzle. Do they still have moderators around here? Feenwelt dear, was it yesterday?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello for the first time!
Does "that" refer to a place? an event?
Did anyone win a competition? a battle?
Is this puzzle about people? history? politics? sports? economy?
Was the victory rewarded? with money? power? honour?
Is the time when this happened relevant? the place?
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I've seen you in the solved puzzle sections...

We won! We Won!(dies of exhaustion?)
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does "there" in the puzzle title refer to the location of the victory? Was the victory a real-life event?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does "that" refer to a place? yes an event? yes
Did anyone win a competition? yope a battle? no
Is this puzzle about people? yes history? yes politics? no sports? yes economy? no
Was the victory rewarded? yes with money? yes power? no honour? yes
Is the time when this happened relevant? yes the place? yes

Does "there" in the puzzle title refer to the location of the victory? yes Was the victory a real-life event? yes
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 2482
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We won! We Won!(dies of exhaustion?) not the Battle of Marathon, but this question contains the germ of an idea worth exploring...
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Woubit :-)

Anything to do with winning the bid to host the Olympics? If so, was it in this century, the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 2484
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 1:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Woubit :-) hello Lynne - good to see some of the familiar faces again

Anything to do with winning the bid to host the Olympics? nothing at all, I fear If so, was it in this century, the 90s, 80s, 70s, etc?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this an actual victory, or a fictional one?

Was there any dispute about the victory?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 2:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was this an actual victory, or a fictional one? the puzzle concerns both an actual victory and a victory that may best be described as hypothetical or rhetorical, rather than fictional. I am sorry if this seems more to obscure the matter than to illuminate it, but that is the way of the LTPF - or used to be when I was younger.

Was there any dispute about the victory? about the actual victory, none whatever. About the hypothetical or rhetorical victory... well, the matter is not in dispute among right-thinking people
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was there a race? a physical race? running? vehicles involved? any disabilities?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was there a race? yes a physical race? yes running? yes vehicles involved? yes, but not in the race any disabilities? no, except for very vague values of "disability"
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, a Woubit puzzle! Now my day is made =)

Is the title relevant? If so, is the place where the victory was "there" and then we, for some reason, turn back again?

Is the sport running?
Football? Soccer?

Were there competing teams or just competing people?

The audience relevant?
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is there a marathon? athletics event? in the olympics?
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any cheating, doping or unfair methods used?
Was there a moral winner who struggled the most but did not end up winning the actual race?
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool. I remember you from when I was last on. I come back today, and find that you also returned two days before me :-)

This hypothetical/rhetorical victory - is it a legend? a myth? Any of the Greek/Roman myths?

To be answered for both the rhetorical and actual victory: which century did it happen in? [insert list of centuries]
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 1:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, a Woubit puzzle! Now my day is made =) Hello Huntinggirl - good to see you again

Is the title relevant? yes If so, is the place where the victory was "there" and then we, for some reason, turn back again? I am not sure what you are asking here. There were in fact two actual victories, both in the same place.

Is the sport running?
Football? Soccer? none of those, I am afraid

Were there competing teams or just competing people? yope to both

The audience relevant? no

is there a marathon? athletics event? in the olympics? none of these - the sport in question does not feature in the Olympic Games

Any cheating, doping or unfair methods used? none whatsoever
Was there a moral winner who struggled the most but did not end up winning the actual race? there was not, but good thinking

Cool. I remember you from when I was last on. I come back today, and find that you also returned two days before me :-) Hello young Logician - I remember you too, of course.

This hypothetical/rhetorical victory - is it a legend? no a myth? thre are those who believe so, there are others who believe it true Any of the Greek/Roman myths? no

To be answered for both the rhetorical and actual victory: which century did it happen in? [insert list of centuries] both the actual victores (see above) happened in the 20th century. The rhetorical victory is perhaps best regarded either as an ongoing phenomenon, or as not having happened yet.
Mimino (Mimino)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there two actual races? Was the second race into the opposite direction?
Were two teams competing? more?
Was it the same winner in both of the actual victories?
(Anything about the Boat Race? ..)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were there two actual races? yes Was the second race into the opposite direction? no
Were two teams competing? more? this one, for svv of "teams"
Was it the same winner in both of the actual victories? yes
(Anything about the Boat Race? ..) no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

.. stepping in only very occasionally, I see Woubit is back! Nice to see you again ;)

Was it a race in the usual sense, that is, the goal was to finish a particular distance in shortest time? Were the competitors humans? animals? machines?
Was the race at land? in the water? in the air?
Was the second race a challenge by the loser of the first one?
Were there more races of this kind than these two? Will there be more in the future?
Are the two physical victories sort of proof for the rhetorical argument? (like the usual good performance of Jutta Kleinschmidt at the Dakar Rallye could be taken as proof that women can read maps ..)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

.. stepping in only very occasionally, I see Woubit is back! Nice to see you again ;) It's as if I'd never been away. Hello Jens - penetrating questions, as always.

Was it a race in the usual sense, that is, the goal was to finish a particular distance in shortest time? yes Were the competitors humans? yes animals? yes machines? no
Was the race at land? this one in the water? no in the air? occasionally
Was the second race a challenge by the loser of the first one? no
Were there more races of this kind than these two? yes Will there be more in the future? yes
Are the two physical victories sort of proof for the rhetorical argument? yesish (like the usual good performance of Jutta Kleinschmidt at the Dakar Rallye could be taken as proof that women can read maps ..) but not this kind of thing
Logician (Logician)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To clarify your last post: Are the competitors animals only insofar as they are also humans?

Would it help to find out where the races took place? When abouts in the 20th Century they took place?

Is the feminist movement relevant? Was the victor of the races female?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To clarify your last post: Are the competitors animals only insofar as they are also humans? no - both human beings and non-human animals are involved in the actual competitions

Would it help to find out where the races took place? possibly When abouts in the 20th Century they took place? in 1935 and 1936.

It should now be a matter of moments for you to identify the actual victories of which I speak. But the puzzle will not be solved until you have identifed the metaphorical victory involved, and why it was so involved.


Is the feminist movement relevant? no Was the victor of the races female? no
Brid (Brid)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 6:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are horses involved?

Not that I know the first thing about horse races. But I thought I'd like to look in. Hi!
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we talking about the Grand National? Did the same horse win the race in those two years?

Is the hypothetical/rhetorical victory some sort of advance in human rights? Does it concern civil liberties at all? Are Anglo-Irish relations relevant? Some sort of progress in the humane treatment of animals?

When you say 'not in dispute among right-thinking people' do you mean this in a moral sense (eg that right-thinking people would be against slavery or wife-beating), or are you being jocular (eg that no right-minded person would buy a Paul McCartney album)?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Being something of a Grand National expert (he said modestly) i know an Irish Trained horse called Reynoldstown won the National in 35 & 36 . Is this relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are horses involved? yes - see below

Not that I know the first thing about horse races. But I thought I'd like to look in. Hi! Hello Brid. This is getting more and more like the old days.

Are we talking about the Grand National? yes, indeed - for the benefit of overseas readers, the Grand National is an annual horse race run over fences, and is easily the most popular race in Britain. It took place last Saturday, so this seemed a topical sort of puzzle. Did the same horse win the race in those two years? it did

Is the hypothetical/rhetorical victory some sort of advance in human rights? no Does it concern civil liberties at all? no Are Anglo-Irish relations relevant? no Some sort of progress in the humane treatment of animals? no

When you say 'not in dispute among right-thinking people' do you mean this in a moral sense (eg that right-thinking people would be against slavery or wife-beating), or are you being jocular (eg that no right-minded person would buy a Paul McCartney album)? the former sense is close to what I mean; the latter sense is not
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Being something of a Grand National expert (he said modestly) i know an Irish Trained horse called Reynoldstown won the National in 35 & 36 . Is this relevant? yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the metaphorical victory something to do with the jockey? trainer? or the horse itself? it's name?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the metaphorical victory something to do with the jockey? trainer? or the horse itself? it's name? with none of these
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this best be described as moral victory? pyrrhic ? succeeding in the face of adversity? proving people wrong?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2007 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could this best be described as moral victory? yes, but not perhaps entirely in the sense in which you may be using the phrase pyrrhic ? no succeeding in the face of adversity? yes proving people wrong? noish
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 12:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is the metaphorical victory linked to the fact that the horse achieved the rare feat of winning consecutive Grand Nationals?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 1:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So is the metaphorical victory linked to the fact that the horse achieved the rare feat of winning consecutive Grand Nationals? the metaphorical victory is not the same kind of thing at all as the winning of a horse race
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the metaphorical victory still have happened (or be happening):

if Reynoldstown had not won the race in 1935?
if Reynoldstown had not won the race in 1936?
if Reynoldstown had had a different name?
if the race had been run at another course?
if it had been a flat race?

Has anyone's life been saved as a result of the metaphorical victory? Has the victory resulted in a better quality of life for people? For horses?

To solve the puzzle, do we need any more factual information about the circumstances of either the 1935 or the 1936 race?

Is the metaphorical victory connected to scientific advances? Educational advances? Would it best be described as a "victory for common sense"?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 1:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the metaphorical victory still have happened (or be happening):

if Reynoldstown had not won the race in 1935? yes
if Reynoldstown had not won the race in 1936? yes
if Reynoldstown had had a different name? yes
if the race had been run at another course? yes
if it had been a flat race? yes

Has anyone's life been saved as a result of the metaphorical victory? metaphorically, yes. A most excellent question. Has the victory resulted in a better quality of life for people? as above For horses? no

To solve the puzzle, do we need any more factual information about the circumstances of either the 1935 or the 1936 race? yes

Is the metaphorical victory connected to scientific advances? Educational advances? Would it best be described as a "victory for common sense"? none of the above
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So am I right in thinking that the literal victories did not directly cause the metaphorical victory?

Is it perhaps that the literal victories were a result of the metaphorical victory? Or a representation of that victory? Was the metaphorical victory also 'ongoing' in 1935-36?

Is it some sort of victory of good over evil? Some sort of conquest of inner demons?

Is it relevant that the winning jockey broke a stirrup in 1936?

Any wordplays involved (along the lines of "The Roar of David's Triumph")?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another 100-1 outsider: has this got anything to do with 'making the weight' or dieting? Weighing in or out?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So am I right in thinking that the literal victories did not directly cause the metaphorical victory? you are absolutely right in this thought. You might care to explore the matter from a different perspective, however...

Is it perhaps that the literal victories were a result of the metaphorical victory? ...and this sort of thinking is much more along the right lines Or a representation of that victory? not this sort of thing Was the metaphorical victory also 'ongoing' in 1935-36? yes

Is it some sort of victory of good over evil? very much so indeed Some sort of conquest of inner demons? no

Is it relevant that the winning jockey broke a stirrup in 1936? no

Any wordplays involved (along the lines of "The Roar of David's Triumph")? no

Another 100-1 outsider: has this got anything to do with 'making the weight' or dieting? Weighing in or out? your estimate of the odds was entirely correct, I fear, and this is not Foinavon's year
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this have anything to do with anti-Fascism?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does this have anything to do with anti-Fascism? no - the forces of good and the forces of evil involved are rather more fundamental than that
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK: going back to your title: is this to do with heaven and hell? Or specifically, with the idea of going to hell and back?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK: going back to your title: is this to do with heaven and hell? yope Or specifically, with the idea of going to hell and back? no
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A yope: so is Heaven relevant? Hell? Purgatory?

Is it relevant that the horse was Irish? That Ireland is a Catholic country? Is the Catholic church relevant at all? The Devil? Saint Paddy? Any of the ten commandments? Absolution? The forgiveness of sins? The life everlasting?

Am I right to think that this victory is not something necessarily more serious than the victory of the allies against Fascism, but simply something of a more generalised nature?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A yope: so is Heaven relevant? certainly Hell? not to nearly so great an extent Purgatory? no

Is it relevant that the horse was Irish? That Ireland is a Catholic country? Is the Catholic church relevant at all? The Devil? Saint Paddy? Any of the ten commandments? Absolution? The forgiveness of sins? The life everlasting? this one is highly relevant

Am I right to think that this victory is not something necessarily more serious than the victory of the allies against Fascism, but simply something of a more generalised nature? recall that this is a metaphorical, or rhetorical, "victory", not a single event. There are a great many people to whom it is considerably more serious than the victory of the Allies over Fascism, or any other temporal victory.
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 1:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the riders in the Book of Revelation? The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse? If so, which one is the most relevant? The one representing Pestilence, War, Famine, or Death?

Does the name Reynoldstown have anything to do with Heaven? Or any apocalyptic connotations between the two? Or a connection with one of the apocalyptic riders?

Is the jockey on Reynoldstown relevant here?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 1:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

putting together the very vague side-notes about "Marathon" and "There and back again"... Is the methaphorical victory related to a (metaphorical) battle?
Is the color of the horse relevant?
Relevant that the jockey was the son of the owner of the horse?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with:

Armageddon?
The conditions of entry into the Kingdom of Heaven?
Camels and/or eyes of needles?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the riders in the Book of Revelation? no, but this is the right sort of thinking The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse? no, but... If so, which one is the most relevant? The one representing Pestilence, War, Famine, or Death? {...the last of these is certainly relevant, though not qua horseman}

Does the name Reynoldstown have anything to do with Heaven? not as far as I am aware, although I have no doubt that Reynoldstown is a perfectly delightful place Or any apocalyptic connotations between the two? Or a connection with one of the apocalyptic riders? see above

Is the jockey on Reynoldstown relevant here? no

putting together the very vague side-notes about "Marathon" and "There and back again"... Is the methaphorical victory related to a (metaphorical) battle? noish
Is the color of the horse relevant? no
Relevant that the jockey was the son of the owner of the horse? no

Anything to do with:

Armageddon? not really
The conditions of entry into the Kingdom of Heaven? yesish
Camels and/or eyes of needles? no
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still thinking Revelation (and not getting much): are any of these relevant?

The Sea of Glass?
The Number of the Beast?
The Harps of God? (I'm sure many of these are imbibed in Reynoldstown when the Irish get a winner)

In the puzzle statement "That's where the victory was", does "that" refer to Reynoldstown (the place)? Or to Aintree racecourse? Or both?

Is the puzzle statement perhaps an answer to "Oh Death, where is thy sting, O Grave, where is thy Victory"?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still thinking Revelation (and not getting much): are any of these relevant?

The Sea of Glass? no
The Number of the Beast? no
The Harps of God? (I'm sure many of these are imbibed in Reynoldstown when the Irish get a winner) I am not so sure any more - Irish horses win major English horse races with a regularity so depressing that the Irish, who are a kindly folk, nowadays regard a victory for one of their own as no great matter

In the puzzle statement "That's where the victory was", does "that" refer to Reynoldstown (the place)? Or to Aintree racecourse? Or both? the latter, most assuredly - or at least its environs

Is the puzzle statement perhaps an answer to "Oh Death, where is thy sting, O Grave, where is thy Victory"? exactly and precisely so - well done indeed. Now then...
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 9:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are graves relevant? I know Red Rum is buried at the racecourse. Is Reynoldstown buried there too? Anything to do with people wanting to be buried on private property and not in graveyards?


p.s Even though we are becoming used to winning your big races we Irish never tire of the experience and still celebrate them to the full . After all we went years without winning the National after L'escargot in '75 so we should enjoy this winning streak while it lasts
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is any other meaning of "grave" relevant?
grave as in grave accent?
grave like important, meaningful, heavy?
grave like somber, dark, melancholic?
gravidity?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are graves relevant? not especially I know Red Rum is buried at the racecourse. Is Reynoldstown buried there too? not as far as I know Anything to do with people wanting to be buried on private property and not in graveyards? no - the metaphorical victory in this puzzle is just that: metaphorical

Is any other meaning of "grave" relevant?
grave as in grave accent?
grave like important, meaningful, heavy?
grave like somber, dark, melancholic?
gravidity? nothing like this. The notion is that the answer to the question "Where is thy victory?" was to be found in Reynoldstown's two (literal) victories in the Grand National. You need to find out how.
Huntinggirl (Huntinggirl)
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Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did another horse called Grave compete against Reynoldstown in one or both of the races?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did another horse called Grave compete against Reynoldstown in one or both of the races? not as far as I know
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So this victory over death took place (metaphorically) at Aintree or its environs? Does this mean the ground belonging to the racecourse? Or to the City of Liverpool? Was the connection between Reynoldstown's victories and the victory over the grave reported in some source? An epitaph? A newspaper? A book of memoirs? If so, was it something said at the time? Or afterwards? Was the connection made in jest (as in one of those 'Pearly gates' jokes')? Did someone actually say "That's where the victory was"? Or write these words?

We still need to discover some relevant detail of the two literal victories, don't we? Is it relevant that the leader dropped out of the 1936 race at the last fence? Are the names of any fences (eg Becher's) relevant at all?

Could the title be construed as a reference to Heaven? Or to reincarnation, or such?

Would the connection between Reynoldstown and "Grave, where is thy victory?" still apply if Reynoldstown had only won the race once? Is any particular person's death relevant? Such as that of a monarch?

Is the name of any other racehorse relevant at all?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So this victory over death took place (metaphorically) at Aintree or its environs? it did - and in the environs, not the racecourse itself Does this mean the ground belonging to the racecourse? Or to the City of Liverpool? this one Was the connection between Reynoldstown's victories and the victory over the grave reported in some source? well, the incidents that led up to the connection between the horse's win and "Grave, where is thy victory?" were reported in a number of places An epitaph? no A newspaper? yes A book of memoirs? yes If so, was it something said at the time? no Or afterwards? yes Was the connection made in jest (as in one of those 'Pearly gates' jokes')? Did someone actually say "That's where the victory was"? Or write these words? not until I posted this puzzle

We still need to discover some relevant detail of the two literal victories, don't we? yes, but nothing to do with the actual horse races themselves - you need to focus on the events that preceded the races Is it relevant that the leader dropped out of the 1936 race at the last fence? no Are the names of any fences (eg Becher's) relevant at all? no

Could the title be construed as a reference to Heaven? Or to reincarnation, or such? the title was chosen simply because Reynoldstown went there (Aintree) in 1935 to win the Grand National, and back again in 1936 to repeat the performance

Would the connection between Reynoldstown and "Grave, where is thy victory?" still apply if Reynoldstown had only won the race once? yes Is any particular person's death relevant? no Such as that of a monarch?

Is the name of any other racehorse relevant at all? no
Zenith (Zenith)
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Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Woubit. Wow, I've been out of this forum for about a year and a half and it's like I never left!

Just Checking, This Victory was a positive thing for whoever might have been thinking the puzzle statement? Or was 'That's where the victory was, with respect to '...O Grave, Where is thy victory?' stating that this event was Grave's victory, and hence could be construed as negative?

Did someone try to cheat?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just Checking, This Victory was a positive thing for whoever might have been thinking the puzzle statement? it was Or was 'That's where the victory was, with respect to '...O Grave, Where is thy victory?' stating that this event was Grave's victory, and hence could be construed as negative? no - the notion is that the victories for Reynoldstown were also (in a sense, but not a negative sense) victories for death and the grave, and thus an answer to the question "where is thy victory?"

Did someone try to cheat? no. And hello again, Senith. Good to see another of the old crowd - not that it isn't just as good to see the new faces also.
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it be possible to replace "victories FOR death and the grave" with "victories OVER death and the grave" without any significant change of sense? (I'm just struggling with the notion of a "victory for death" being a Good Thing.)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it be possible to replace "victories FOR death and the grave" with "victories OVER death and the grave" without any significant change of sense? no - good question (I'm just struggling with the notion of a "victory for death" being a Good Thing.) well, since that is the heart of the puzzle, I am afraid you will have to struggle with it a little further.
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the notion of "victory for the grave" also mean that someone was defeated by the grave? if so: relevant who?
Would the puzzle also work if some other horse had won the 1935 Grand National? if Reynoldstown had won in 1936 only? if he had won in 1934 (but not in 1935 and 1936)?
Wild guess: is a cemetary/graveyard relevant here? its location?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 2:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the notion of "victory for the grave" also mean that someone was defeated by the grave? no if so: relevant who?
Would the puzzle also work if some other horse had won the 1935 Grand National? yes, as far as I understand the question - any of the other runners in the National could have won in the same circumstances as Reynoldstown did, and the puzzle would still work if Reynoldstown had won in 1936 only? yes if he had won in 1934 (but not in 1935 and 1936)? yes
Wild guess: is a cemetary/graveyard relevant here? its location? no, but that guess is not as wild as you may think - it is very much along the right lines
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 9:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a physical grave involved here? if so: of a man? of a horse? is the grave located in Aintree? in Liverpool? somewhere in the vicinity? on the ground of the sea? does it still exist?
Is there something special about the circumstances of the race? the way Reynoldstown won? something that happened before the race? afterwards?
Are any other people relevant in this puzzle besides jockeys, horse owners and trainers?
Did I understand right that the years 1935/1936 are relevant only because of the circumstances of the race? So if some other horse had won the race of, say, 1982, under the same circumstances, could this also be considered a victory of the grave?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it help to discover a relevant address or location in Liverpool (other than the racecourse)? Perhaps a church? An inscription of some sort? A plaque? Anfield? The Kop? The Liver Building? The docks? The Mersey Tunnel?

Is any literature (apart from 1 Corinthians 15) relevant here?

For instance,

O Grave, where is thy victory?
O Death, where is thy sting?
Thy victory is everywhere,
Thy sting's in everything.

comes from a war poem written by someone called Kennedy, who died in Liverpool. Is this relevant or have I shimmied up another gum tree?

Even wilder guess: anything to do with Handel's Messiah? (The Liverpool Phil performs this every year ... I think)

Is Death personified in this puzzle? For instance, does Mr Death, according to some Scouse lore, turn up somewhere with a scythe, a la Monty Python?
Snoozer (Snoozer)
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Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2007 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a "win or die" situation?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 1:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would it help to discover a relevant address or location in Liverpool (other than the racecourse)? no, but this is not far from the right forest Perhaps a church? and nor is this An inscription of some sort? A plaque? Anfield? The Kop? The Liver Building? The docks? The Mersey Tunnel? but these are

Is any literature (apart from 1 Corinthians 15) relevant here? no

For instance,

O Grave, where is thy victory?
O Death, where is thy sting?
Thy victory is everywhere,
Thy sting's in everything.

comes from a war poem written by someone called Kennedy, who died in Liverpool. Is this relevant or have I shimmied up another gum tree? I fear that the latter is the case

Even wilder guess: anything to do with Handel's Messiah? (The Liverpool Phil performs this every year ... I think) no

Is Death personified in this puzzle? For instance, does Mr Death, according to some Scouse lore, turn up somewhere with a scythe, a la Monty Python? nothing like this

Is it a "win or die" situation? no, but a good piece of thinking
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 1:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sorry, missed these

Is there a physical grave involved here? yesish if so: of a man? this one of a horse? is the grave located in Aintree? no in Liverpool? yes somewhere in the vicinity? yes on the ground of the sea? no does it still exist? very probably, although I cannot say for certain
Is there something special about the circumstances of the race? no the way Reynoldstown won? no something that happened before the race? yes afterwards? no
Are any other people relevant in this puzzle besides jockeys, horse owners and trainers? yes
Did I understand right that the years 1935/1936 are relevant only because of the circumstances of the race? yes So if some other horse had won the race of, say, 1982, under the same circumstances, could this also be considered a victory of the grave? it certainly could
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Friday, May 04, 2007 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if yesishly a grave, then perhaps a monument? a tombstone? a place where someone died? a place where someone is believed to be buried?
Is this person to which the yesish grave is related, male? English? British? died long time ago?
Is it a member of the Royal Family?
Did whatever happened before the race have some influence on the race itself? Did it help Reynoldstown to win?
Zenith (Zenith)
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Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 4:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the grave itself relevant? Is the man who was buried there relevent?
Did he die recently?
If so, did he bet on the outcome of the race before he died?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there any ghosts or hauntings in the puzzle? Did the dead man make any particular predictions or prophecies?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if yesishly a grave, then perhaps a monument? a tombstone? no a place where someone died? no, but... a place where someone is believed to be buried? no
Is this person FA to which the yesish grave is related, male? English? British? died long time ago? none of this is recorded, apart from the fact that the people (see FA above) who died did so 72 and 71 years ago respectively
Is it a member of the Royal Family? and were not members of the Royal Family
Did whatever happened before the race have some influence on the race itself? unlikely, but... Did it help Reynoldstown to win? equally unlikely, but...

Is the grave itself relevant? no Is the man who was buried there relevent? no
Did he die recently? see above
If so, did he bet on the outcome of the race before he died? this is not recorded, and does not matter

Are there any ghosts or hauntings in the puzzle? no Did the dead man make any particular predictions or prophecies? none that are relevant, at any rate
Booklover (Booklover)
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Posted on Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, I'm coming in pretty late in the game, so forgive me if I ask some things that have already been answered--

so, it is more important now to discuss his metaphysical victory rather than his two real victories, correct?

Should the horse have won? Was there anything physically wrong with the horse--enlarged heart? older? blind in one eye? smaller horse than a normal racehorse?

Did anything happen to the horse right after (or soon after) the second victory? did he die?

(On April 22 in responding to Wordworm) you the question and response was as following Has anyone's life been saved as a result of the metaphorical victory? metaphorically, yes. A most excellent question. Has the victory resulted in a better quality of life for people? as above Should we delve into this?

long shot: did this have anything to do with organ transplants?
was the racetrack improved in any way after the second victory?
were the people who had a better quality of life the Irish? were they compensated as a group somehow for these two victories?

regarding the death/grave victory/sting quote: do we need to focus anymore on this quote, or did it just have to do with the fact that Reynoldstown won two victories in a row?

My knowledge of the Grand Nationals is pretty much nil (I have basically only seen National Velvet with Elizabeth Taylor--and that was years ago!)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, I'm coming in pretty late in the game, so forgive me if I ask some things that have already been answered--

so, it is more important now to discuss his metaphysical victory rather than his two real victories, correct? the metaphysical victory was that over death and the grave - you need to discover how this victory assisted Reynoldstown to win two Grand Nationals

Should the horse have won? yes Was there anything physically wrong with the horse--enlarged heart? older? blind in one eye? smaller horse than a normal racehorse? the horse was in excellent condition, as a Grand National winner needs to be

Did anything happen to the horse right after (or soon after) the second victory? nothing relevant did he die? well, he has been dead for many years now, but his death is in no way relevant

(On April 22 in responding to Wordworm) you the question and response was as following Has anyone's life been saved as a result of the metaphorical victory? metaphorically, yes. A most excellent question. Has the victory resulted in a better quality of life for people? metaphorically, or metaphysically, yes as above Should we delve into this? no

long shot: did this have anything to do with organ transplants? no
was the racetrack improved in any way after the second victory? no
were the people who had a better quality of life the Irish? everyone who subscribes to the notion that victory over death is possible has not only a better quality of life, but everlasting life. However, this is not relevant. were they compensated as a group somehow for these two victories? no

regarding the death/grave victory/sting quote: do we need to focus anymore on this quote, or did it just have to do with the fact that Reynoldstown won two victories in a row? you need to discover only how two deaths were responsible for Reynoldstown's two National victories

My knowledge of the Grand Nationals is pretty much nil (I have basically only seen National Velvet with Elizabeth Taylor--and that was years ago!) no particular knowledge of the history of the Grand National is required to solve this puzzle
Booklover (Booklover)
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Posted on Monday, May 07, 2007 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

about the two deaths that were responsible for Reynoldstown's two National Victories:

were these deaths of:
people? jockeys in particular? if jockeys, were these jockeys to compete in the Grand National the same years that Reynoldstown won?

horses? if horses, were these horses to compete in the Grand National same years that Reynoldstown won?

If these deaths had not occured, would Reynoldstown have won?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

people? yes jockeys in particular? if jockeys, were these jockeys to compete in the Grand National the same years that Reynoldstown won? no - they were, as far as is known, just ordinary members (or ex-members) of the general public

horses? if horses, were these horses to compete in the Grand National same years that Reynoldstown won? no

If these deaths had not occured, would Reynoldstown have won? almost certainly he would, but...
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did these people have something in common? (except for that they died in the same year)
if so: did also in 1937, 1938, .. die people with this property?
Did they all die in Liverpool?
Did they die before the race? during? later?
Relevant how many people?
Would the race not have taken place if these people had not died? would it have taken place in some other venue? at some other date?
Relevant where these people are buried? Are they buried in some other place than they were supposed to?
E20 (E20)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, if everyone else is making a come-back ...

Was the cause of death significant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did these people have something in common? (except for that they died in the same year) one of them died in 1935. The other died in 1936.
if so: did also in 1937, 1938, .. die people with this property? not as far as is recorded, but "this property" is a bit tenuous
Did they all die in Liverpool? anyone who did die with "this property" would certainly have died in Liverpool
Did they die before the race? this one during? later?
Relevant how many people? one relevant person died before each relevant race
Would the race not have taken place if these people had not died? it would have taken place whether these people had died or not would it have taken place in some other venue? no at some other date? no
Relevant where these people are buried? no Are they buried in some other place than they were supposed to? no

Was the cause of death significant? no, and hello again E20.

I'm a bit worried that people seem to be in the wrong forest. In the old days, we used to post a

***** RECAP *****

Reynoldstown, an Irish horse trained on each occasion by Noel Furlong and ridden in 1935 by Frank Furlong and in 1936 by Fulke Walwyn, achieved the rare feat of winning two consecutive Grand National races.

The Grand National is not regarded as the blue riband of steeplechasing - it is a long race over many very large fences, so luck plays a large part, and it is a handicap race. But there is no question that it has been for more than a hundred years the most popular horse race in Britain, and hence probably the world.

Reynoldstown's literal victories in the National were (or might have been) in some part due to the metaphysical or metaphorical "victory" over death and the grave that forms a central part of the Christian religion. That is, on each occasion a person died "so that" Reynoldstown might win.

The people who died don't matter - no monument shows their post-mortem inscription. Reynoldstown would have won anyway - their deaths had no actual effect on the race.

Good luck.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the metaphysical victory over death the Resurrection? rising again on the third day? Is Easter relevant here? The grand national is usually run in early April were the races in 1935 & 1936 run during easter week?
Crazypalpig (Crazypalpig)
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Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 1:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pentecost relevent? Easter Friday? Any particular passage in the 4 gospels relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 3:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the metaphysical victory over death the Resurrection? rising again on the third day? the theological aspects don't matter - the notion is that Reynoldstown's victories could be seen as answering the question "Death, where is thy victory?" Is Easter relevant here? The grand national is usually run in early April were the races in 1935 & 1936 run during easter week? Easter is not relevant - the circumstances of this puzzle involved the Grand National, but any other horse race at any other time of year would have sufficed

Pentecost relevent? Easter Friday? Any particular passage in the 4 gospels relevant? see above
E20 (E20)
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Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 1935 relevant deceasee: Male? Adult? How long before the race did the death occur? How far from Aintree did the death occur?

The 1936 relevant deceasee: Male? Adult? How long before the race did the death occur? How far from Aintree did the death occur?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 1935 relevant deceasee: Male? unkonwn, and irrelevant Adult? ditto How long before the race did the death occur? precise time of death unknown, but likely to have been no more than a week before the running of the National, and probably only a couple of days or so How far from Aintree did the death occur? precise location of death unknown, but likely to have been within, say, a twenty-mile radius of Aintree

The 1936 relevant deceasee: Male? Adult? How long before the race did the death occur? How far from Aintree did the death occur? answers exactly as above
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the dead person unburied at the time of the race? Was the dead person in a morgue at the time of the race? Awaiting burial? Cremation? Did someone receive a message from beyond the grave? Via a ouija board or similar? Is betting relevant? Did someone receive a racing tip from someone recently deceased? Is the cause of death relevant in either case?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the dead people leave a will? Was anything relevant printed in the Births, Marriages and Deaths column of a newspaper? Perhaps spelling out the name of a horse, or such?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2007 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the funeral take place shortly before the race? while the race was going on? Did the funeral procession somehow come close to the race course? Was a church bell ringing during the race?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the dead person unburied at the time of the race? yes Was the dead person in a morgue at the time of the race? no Awaiting burial? either that or... Cremation? ...this Did someone receive a message from beyond the grave? no Via a ouija board or similar? no Is betting relevant? no Did someone receive a racing tip from someone recently deceased? no Is the cause of death relevant in either case? no

Did the dead people leave a will? I expect they did, but I do not know, and it does not matter Was anything relevant printed in the Births, Marriages and Deaths column of a newspaper? no Perhaps spelling out the name of a horse, or such? no, but a most ingenious piece of thinking

Did the funeral take place shortly before the race? either this or... while the race was going on? ...this Did the funeral procession somehow come close to the race course? yes, but... Was a church bell ringing during the race? ...not close enough to influence the actual running of the race
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 5:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the dead person in a coffin at the time of the race? Was there any apparently supernatural event? Did anyone in an assembly of mourners/cortege do anything relevant? Say anything? Was the funeral-related event considered newsworthy in 1935? In 1936? Was the 1935 event newsworthy/worthy of a Woubit puzzle in itself? Or did it only become so by coincidence, when it happened again in 1936? Were the dead people in each year related at all? Was there a service in each year? At the same church? Different churches? Would the assembled mourners have known that it was newsworthy as it happened? Would they have immediately understood the connection to the Grand National? Did a shocking or macabre event happen during the funeral? Any relevant hymns sung at the funeral? Did anyone at the racecourse know that this funeral was taking place on each occasion? Would you say that this puzzle was generally of a comical type, or rather darker? Was it possible that the same combination of events could have happened again in 1937? Can we be sure, even now, that it didn't?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the dead person in a coffin at the time of the race? yes Was there any apparently supernatural event? no, but... Did anyone in an assembly of mourners/cortege do anything relevant? no Say anything? no Was the funeral-related event considered newsworthy in 1935? no In 1936? no Was the 1935 event newsworthy/worthy of a Woubit puzzle in itself? no Or did it only become so by coincidence, when it happened again in 1936? yes Were the dead people in each year related at all? unkown, and irrelevant Was there a service in each year? yes, but irrelevant At the same church? unknown, and irrelevant Different churches? ditto Would the assembled mourners have known that it was newsworthy as it happened? no Would they have immediately understood the connection to the Grand National? no Did a shocking or macabre event happen during the funeral? no Any relevant hymns sung at the funeral? no Did anyone at the racecourse know that this funeral was taking place on each occasion? probably not Would you say that this puzzle was generally of a comical type, or rather darker? there isn't anything dark about it Was it possible that the same combination of events could have happened again in 1937? well, Reynoldstown did not enter the 1937 Grand National, but it is possible that the same combination of events could have happened with a different horse involved Can we be sure, even now, that it didn't? no
Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 6:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Horses often exhibit an unusual behavior around corpses, probably because of the smell. Was the funeral procession close enough to the racetrack to influence horses' performance?
Zenith (Zenith)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it just that in both 1935 and 1936 a funeral occured in the vicinity of the race itself, and that Reynoldstown won both races; an observer could, with enough imagination, make a connection between the two events?
Especially because the second incident makes it look less like coincidence and more like divinity?

Is there anything we're missing?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Horses often exhibit an unusual behavior around corpses, probably because of the smell. Was the funeral procession close enough to the racetrack to influence horses' performance? no, but help is at hand...

Is it just that in both 1935 and 1936 a funeral occurred in the vicinity of the race itself, and that Reynoldstown won both races; an observer could, with enough imagination, make a connection between the two events?
Especially because the second incident makes it look less like coincidence and more like divinity?

Is there anything we're missing? well, the details aren't entirely correct, but what you have above will do for a

***** SPOILER *****

On the way to the 1935 Grand National, the Irish horse Reynoldstown and his entourage drove past a funeral procession.

The Irish are a superstitious folk, and this apparently ill omen caused them to approach the race with heavy hearts. But no one told the horse that he wasn't fated to win the race, so he did.

The following year, as Reynoldstown approached Aintree again, his owner instructed the driver of the horse box to drive around Liverpool until they found another funeral procession. Not until they had done this did they proceed to the race course, where Reynoldstown - with the aid of death and the grave - was once again triumphant. That's where the victory was.

Thanks to everyone who joined in. It's good to be back.
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aaah yes, the Irish and their superstitions. Very Father Ted :-)
Beroean (Beroean)
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good to see you back!

:-)

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