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Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 909
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A man was charged with a crime, and was acquitted controversially. Several months later, another man was charged with another crime, and was convicted - shedding even more doubt on the acquittal of the first man. What's going on?
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 465
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were both crimes the same type of crime?
Are the crimes:
pickpocketing? stealing?
burglary? black market?
murder? assault?
accidental killing?
smuggling?
traitor? deserter?
kidnapping? arson?
destroying property?
poacher? disrupting the peace?
Other?
[Please answer for both the first crime and the second one]

Was the first man acquitted because there wasn't enough evidence against him? Because there seemed to be evidence proving him innocent? Through a technicality?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 911
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were both crimes the same type of crime? no
Are the crimes:
pickpocketing? stealing?
burglary? black market?
murder? assault?
accidental killing?
smuggling?
traitor? deserter?
kidnapping? arson?
destroying property?
poacher? disrupting the peace?
Other? This to both, I'm afraid
[Please answer for both the first crime and the second one]

Was the first man acquitted because there wasn't enough evidence against him? In the view of the judge, yes Because there seemed to be evidence proving him innocent? not this: more like the former Through a technicality? Sort of, yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 467
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the crimes involve harm to someone? Something? Were either of them driving offences?
Was the second man covicted on a similar piece of evidence to one that was considered non-evidence in the first man's trial?
Were the circumstances of the first man's conviction decided to be illegal (such as the police had illegally tapped his phone lines to gather evidence)?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 913
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the crimes involve harm to someone? no direct physical harm, no Something? no damaged property Were either of them driving offences? yes: the first one
Was the second man covicted on a similar piece of evidence to one that was considered non-evidence in the first man's trial? not dissimilar, though the circumstances were different and it was a different offence
Were the circumstances of the first man's conviction decided to be illegal (such as the police had illegally tapped his phone lines to gather evidence)? no
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 469
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The first one: drunk driving? Underage driving? Driving without a license? Did they crash? Into another car? A person? A thing?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 915
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The first one: drunk driving? Underage driving? Driving without a license? This will do: in fact I think it was driving without insurance, but any of these would do. The exact charge is not especially important. Did they crash? Into another car? A person? A thing? no
Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
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Post Number: 145
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 5:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the second crime an insurance fraud? forging a document?
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Post Number: 550
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

are the 2 men connected? do they know each other? are they related? colleagues? friends? do they both use the same argumnet to try to get away with it?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 917
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the second crime an insurance fraud? forging a document? neither of these

are the 2 men connected? no do they know each other? unlikely and irrelevant are they related? no colleagues? no friends? no do they both use the same argumnet to try to get away with it? not quite this, but the two cases are thematically related
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Post Number: 554
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The second one: drunk driving? Underage driving? Driving without a license? insurance? Did they crash? Into another car? A person? A thing? parking offence?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 918
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The second one: drunk driving? Underage driving? Driving without a license? insurance? Did they crash? Into another car? A person? A thing? parking offence? none of these
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

speeding?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 920
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

speeding? Nothing to do with traffic, and nothing to do with the first offence. The relationship between the two cases is nothing as obvious as this
Ixoye724 (Ixoye724)
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the first crime involve fraud? The second one?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 922
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the first crime involve fraud? no The second one? yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 497
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it turn out that a crucial piece of evidence in the first man's acquittal was forged by the second man?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 923
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it turn out that a crucial piece of evidence in the first man's acquittal was forged by the second man? no
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 453
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any forged objects involved in the 2nd crime?
Or rather an activity like cheating?
The relationship between the men: family? friends? colleagues? strangers?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 925
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any forged objects involved in the 2nd crime? not really this
Or rather an activity like cheating? most assuredly this
The relationship between the men: family? friends? colleagues? strangers? complete strangers, as far as I know
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 505
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the second man in any way involved in the trial of the first man? Was he a witness? Judge? Member of the jury?
Did the second man forge a document? Did he cheat in an exam? A test? Did he pretend to be someone he wasn't? Or did he help other people to do this?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 454
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the cheating involve lying? acting? cheating in a game?
Did the man who cheated do this to another person? several persons? Did he meet the person(s)? speak to them? use written communication?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 926
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the second man in any way involved in the trial of the first man? Was he a witness? Judge? Member of the jury? none of these: it was a totally independent event involving a completely different set of people

Did the second man forge a document? Did he cheat in an exam? exactly this: well done A test? Did he pretend to be someone he wasn't? see next Or did he help other people to do this? precisely so! excellent work so far ...

Did the cheating involve lying? acting? cheating in a game? sort of ... see my replies to Enjay, above
Did the man who cheated do this to another person? several persons? he cheated a system, or official body Did he meet the person(s)? speak to them? use written communication? all of these to an extent
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 506
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did he help other people to cheat? Or did you mean that he helps other people to pretend they are someone they're not? Or are these two combined (eg he helps people to forge statements of entry to exams)? Are these school exams? University exams? More specialised exams (like an exam for a specific career)?
Was there any suspicion that the man had helped someone involved in the first trial to cheat?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 928
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did he help other people to cheat? well, he actually cheated: see below

Or did you mean that he helps other people to pretend they are someone they're not? Yes-ish

Or are these two combined (eg he helps people to forge statements of entry to exams)? you mean one of those academics who writes dodgy papers and sells them to students? no ... nothing like this: remember there's no forgery involved


Are these school exams? University exams? this More specialised exams (like an exam for a specific career)? and a smattering of this

Was there any suspicion that the man had helped someone involved in the first trial to cheat? none whatsoever
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 507
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I meant that often when people take exams they have to carry proof of ID in case they're paying someone else to take their exam for them...was he anything to do with this?
Did he cheat by seeeing the papers beforehand? By contacting someone during the exam? Did he use a mobile phone?
Was there any controversy about the second man's conviction? Was there some doubt that evidence used to convict him might not have been valid evidence?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 929
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I meant that often when people take exams they have to carry proof of ID in case they're paying someone else to take their exam for them...was he anything to do with this? very much so ... explore

Did he cheat by seeeing the papers beforehand? By contacting someone during the exam? Did he use a mobile phone? none of these

Was there any controversy about the second man's conviction? no, he pleaded guilty Was there some doubt that evidence used to convict him might not have been valid evidence? no
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he sit the exams for the students? and use fake id to do it?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 931
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he sit the exams for the students? not quite: he was the student in question and ... and use fake id to do it? not a forged ID as such, but ID cards are relevant
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oh ok so did he pay someone to take the exam for him? did he give them his id card? did it have a photo? did he doctor it?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oh ok so did he pay someone to take the exam for him? Yes: I don't think he paid, but he got a friend to take the exam for him

did he give them his id card? yes did it have a photo? yes did he doctor it? no

You now have all the details of the criminal charges themselves: the puzzle is to find out what connects the two events
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about the friend (other than the fact that he took the exam)? Is the friend connected in any way to the man who committed the driving offence? Or connected to his trial? Is it relevant what the exam was for?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there anything relevant about the friend (other than the fact that he took the exam)? yes-ish Is the friend connected in any way to the man who committed the driving offence? no-ish Or connected to his trial? no Is it relevant what the exam was for? no
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is there a connection with the first one having no insurance and the id card? was anyone in the first trial also in the second? was an insurance document forged? altered? was the id card given as it was to the student who took his place? did anyone check the id card?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is there a connection with the first one having no insurance and the id card? nope was anyone in the first trial also in the second? no was an insurance document forged? no altered? no: though the charge was Driving Without Insurance, it would work for lots of possible crimes was the id card given as it was to the student who took his place? yes did anyone check the id card? yes: an invigilator, who then called the police
~damia~ (~damia~)
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Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is there anything more about the first crime we need to know? or the second? or something in the first trial? the second? did something take place in both trials? did someone say something relevant in both? make a similar claim in both? give a strange reason for doing it?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is there anything more about the first crime we need to know? no or the second? no or something in the first trial? yes the second? no did something take place in both trials? no did someone say something relevant in both? no: the exam cheat pleaded guilty, I think make a similar claim in both? ditto give a strange reason for doing it? sort of ... you might want to concentrate on the first trial
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we should find more about the first trial, about: the judge? jury? advocate? prosecuter? accused? attestor? any expert? the audience? any other people? any exhibit? the proceedings? any declaration? anything about the courtroom?
Did the two crimes happen in the same country? in the same town? and the trials? relevant?
Are the time intervals between these events relevant?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So we should find more about the first trial, about: the judge? partly this jury? advocate? prosecuter? accused? and partly this attestor? and this any expert? the audience? any other people? not directly, no any exhibit? the proceedings? any declaration? anything about the courtroom? not really the other ones
Did the two crimes happen in the same country? in the same town? and the trials? relevant? one happened in Scotland, and one in Northern England. Not relevant in the least.
Are the time intervals between these events relevant? no
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the testimony of the attestor beneficial for the accused? Did he or she lie? or was he or she ignorant in any way?
The relationship between the last two: family? friends? colleagues? strangers? relevant?
What was the verdict: there was not enough proof to convict the accused? there were doubts about the identity of the accused? doubts on the testimony?
I suppose that there must have been some sort of communication of what happened in the second case to the people involved in the first case, correct? Did this communication happen by someone? media? some object?
Could the second case have happened in a different country (with a different language and different law)?
If the traffic offence trial had happened after the cheating trial would the accused have been convicted?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the testimony of the attestor beneficial for the accused? no Did he or she lie? no or was he or she ignorant in any way? no

The relationship between the last two: family? friends? colleagues? strangers? relevant?
Do you mean the witness and the accused in the first case? If so, then they are strangers.

If you mean the two people who swapped identities in the second case: they are friends


What was the verdict: there was not enough proof to convict the accused? there were doubts about the identity of the accused? This one, yes doubts on the testimony?

I suppose that there must have been some sort of communication of what happened in the second case to the people involved in the first case, correct?
not directly but ...

Did this communication happen by someone? media? it was reported in a newspaper some object?
Could the second case have happened in a different country (with a different language and different law)? yes: anywhere where identity fraud is a crime

If the traffic offence trial had happened after the cheating trial would the accused have been convicted? probably not
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still concentrating on the first trial:
So the attestor supported the charge?
Has there something to be found out about the identity of the accused? his name? ID card? any photograph of him relevant? is someone looking alike relevant? any confusion involved?
Were attestor and accused present in the court? relevant?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still concentrating on the first trial:
So the attestor supported the charge? yes
Has there something to be found out about the identity of the accused? no-ish his name? no ID card? no any photograph of him relevant? no is someone looking alike relevant? yes-ish any confusion involved? it's arguable, but this idea is relevant
Were attestor and accused present in the court? yes relevant? yes-ish
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the first case:
Was the attestor asked to identify the accused? Had he seen him only once before committing the traffic offence? Did the judge have doubts on his testimony? on the identification of the accused? Did the judge suspect that the attestor mistook the accused for someone else?
Would it help to find out more on the charge? the testimony? the statement of the accused? (was there any?) the verdict? anything else in the proceeding?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the first case:
Was the attestor asked to identify the accused? yes Had he seen him only once before committing the traffic offence? yes Did the judge have doubts on his testimony? not about the honesty of the witness but ... on the identification of the accused? this one Did the judge suspect that the attestor mistook the accused for someone else? YES! Explore

Would it help to find out more on the charge? no the testimony? yes-ish the statement of the accused? no/irrel (was there any? no/irrel) the verdict? well, the verdict was not guilty/case dismissed: we need the reason for the judge's decision anything else in the proceeding?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the attestor identify (or try to) the accused by his appearance? or only part of his body, say his hands? his voice? anything else?
Did the attestor have a twin brother or a look-alike? Was he an average-looking man? Is there anything to be found out about the look of the attestor?
When the attestor saw the accused commiting the traffic offence could he see him clearly? only from a distance? or were the circumstances difficult, say the attestor was drunk?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 945
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the attestor identify (or try to) the accused by his appearance? yes or only part of his body, say his hands? not this his voice? anything else? no: just his appearance

Did the attestor have a twin brother or a look-alike? Was he an average-looking man? Is there anything to be found out about the look of the attestor? The attestor? No. In fact the attestor/witness was a woman, but it isn't relevant.

When the attestor saw the accused commiting the traffic offence could he see him clearly? yes only from a distance? no or were the circumstances difficult, say the attestor was drunk? not at all: she was sober, as indeed she had to be
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the accused have a twin? Or someone who looks very similar to them? Someone with a similar/the same name? Is there anything relevant about the appearance of the accused?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the accused have a twin? irrel Or someone who looks very similar to them? yope: explore Someone with a similar/the same name? irrel Is there anything relevant about the appearance of the accused? yes
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 545
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the accused have a particular distinguishing feature which the attestor recognised them by? If so, was there someone else who also had this feature, casting doubt on the identity of the person the attestor saw? Did the prosecution case mainly rest on this feature?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 947
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the accused have a particular distinguishing feature which the attestor recognised them by? no If so, was there someone else who also had this feature, casting doubt on the identity of the person the attestor saw? no Did the prosecution case mainly rest on this feature? No: it's what the judge said that is important.
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, some of the last questions were meant to refer to the accused: Did the accused have a twin brother or a look-alike? Was he an average-looking man? Is there anything to be found out about the look of the accused?
So when the witness saw the accused committing the traffic offence she could see his whole body? his face? was the accused in a car at that time? do we need to find out more about this?
Was the testimony a sworn statement? relevant?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 948
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, some of the last questions were meant to refer to the accused: Did the accused have a twin brother or a look-alike? no-ish: if he had a twin, he certainly isn't relevant to the puzzle

Was he an average-looking man? yes-ish: nothing weird about his appearance, he's a normal individual

Is there anything to be found out about the look of the accused? yes

So when the witness saw the accused committing the traffic offence she could see his whole body? unlikely his face? this was the accused in a car at that time? irrel do we need to find out more about this? no
Was the testimony a sworn statement? presumably so relevant? no
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 464
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there something relevant about the face of the accused? about his: hair? ears? eyes? mouth? nose? forehead? chin? neck? skin? beard? glasses? make-up?
Was he wearing anything relevant?
Did the witness see any difference between the person committing the traffic offence and the accused in the courtroom? or did the judge find any difference between the description given by the witness and what he saw himself?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 949
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there something relevant about the face of the accused? about his: hair? ears? eyes? mouth? nose? forehead? chin? neck? skin? this ... beard? glasses? make-up? ... and any of the others that collectively make up his facial appearance. Not a beard, glasses or makeup.

Was he wearing anything relevant? no

Did the witness see any difference between the person committing the traffic offence and the accused in the courtroom? no: the witness was quite sure they were the same person

or did the judge find any difference between the description given by the witness and what he saw himself? not this
Enjay (Enjay)
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Post Number: 546
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the accused resemble someone else? A famous person? Does his appearance not fit a previously given description of him?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 950
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the accused resemble someone else? no-one specific, no A famous person? no Does his appearance not fit a previously given description of him? nothing like this
Enjay (Enjay)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a line-up involved? Did the witness fail to pick him from a line-up?
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the skin of the accused is particulary relevant? is it black? white? brown? bronzy? is his race relevant?
Any skin deseases relevant? a spot? acne? a mole? a wart? a cicatrice? a wound? a wrinkle? a tattoo?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is a line-up involved? Did the witness fail to pick him from a line-up? nice thought, but no

So the skin of the accused is particulary relevant? is it black? white? brown? bronzy? this is probably closest, see below is his race relevant? YES

Any skin deseases relevant? a spot? acne? a mole? a wart? a cicatrice? a wound? a wrinkle? a tattoo? but none of these
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 466
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was his race one of the following or a mixture between them: white? asian? hispanic? black-african? north-african? native-american? native-australian?
Was his skin sunburnt? when he was supposed to commit the crime? or in court?
Is racism relevant? prejudices on races?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 952
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So was his race one of the following or a mixture between them: white? asian? this hispanic? black-african? north-african? native-american? native-australian?
Was his skin sunburnt? no to rest

when he was supposed to commit the crime? or in court? n/a

Is racism relevant? prejudices on races? Let's say this one, rather than out-and-out racism: it's debatable, hence the controversy
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Post Number: 467
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Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the judge suspect something of the following: Europeans have typically problems to distinguish Asians, so the witness might be wrong? The witness would accuse an Asian more easily of a crime?
Were the two friends who cheated Asians as well?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Post Number: 953
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the judge suspect something of the following: Europeans have typically problems to distinguish Asians, so the witness might be wrong? The witness would accuse an Asian more easily of a crime?
Were the two friends who cheated Asians as well? Enough already! You have it, apart from a few details. And so to the ...




**** SPOILER ****

In October 2006, a Scottish judge caused controversy by ruling in favour of Mr Hui Yu, of Beijing, who was accused of a motoring offence.

Although the police witness was adamant that she had caught the right man, the judge threw out the case, saying that Westerners sometimes had difficulty telling Chinese people apart.

The Commission for Racial Equality got involved, and the Scottish Nationalists called the decision 'crass, insensitive and incorrect'.

Mr Hui was less bothered. He agreed with the judge, saying rather mischievously that many Chinese people thought all Scotsmen looked alike.

In May 2007, the theory that all Chinese people look alike to a Western eye was put to the test by two students, Qiu Shi Zhang and Xin Zhang, at York University. Hoping that they looked sufficiently alike to fool the invigilator, they swapped identities in an economics exam. Sadly for them, they were instantly rumbled and the police were called.

(I couldn't help smiling at the name of Mr Hui Yu. It just seemed sort of apt.)


Completely true stories, I promise:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article609682.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1805709.ece
Tobasi (Tobasi)
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Username: Tobasi

Post Number: 470
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Woodworm, it was quite tricky to figure out the connection between those two crimes.

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