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Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 4:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He preached it, but he didn't live up to it. It would have ruined him if he had.
Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
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Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was "he" a religious figure?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was "he" a religious figure? No.
Rubberduck (Rubberduck)
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Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Occupation relevant? Money relevant? Something personal?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Occupation relevant? Yesish. Money relevant? Yes. Something personal? Yesish.
Judgedeadd (Judgedeadd)
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Post Number: 982
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He: H? A? M? Any other persons involved? Religion involved? Time relevant? Location relevant? Did this really happen? Is "he" a historical figure?
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've seen H/A/M or a variant of it several times now. Can someone clarify the meaning for me?

Would it have ruined him physically? financially? morally? spiritually? his reputation?
Judgedeadd (Judgedeadd)
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Post Number: 983
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HAM = Human?/Adult?/Male?
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 23
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ah, tyty =)
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He: H? A? M? Yes to all. Any other persons involved? Yes. Religion involved? Yope. Time relevant? Yes. Location relevant? Yes. Did this really happen? Yes, although the details are somewhat disputed. Is "he" a historical figure? Yes.

Would it have ruined him physically? financially? This one. morally? spiritually? his reputation? Possibly this one too.
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does this involve a pyramid scheme? global economics? national economics? personal economics? is he in jail? still alive? still "preaching"?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does this involve a pyramid scheme? No. global economics? No. national economics? Noish. personal economics? Yes. is he in jail? still alive? still "preaching"? No to rest.
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 12:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he attempt to change others' personal economics but if he had done so it would have ruined his? does this deal with automobiles? mortgages? loans of another type? insurance? refinancing? offshoring? tax evasion? retirement planing?

When was this "preacher" preaching? 2000's? 1990's? 1980's? 20th century? significantly before?

Was/is he considered a revolutionary? Was/is he considered at all by academics or those "in the know" in what he preached?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did he attempt to change others' personal economics but if he had done so it would have ruined his? Yesish, but with a possible FA. does this deal with automobiles? No. mortgages? Noish. loans of another type? Yes, but it's not the main issue. insurance? refinancing? offshoring? tax evasion? retirement planing? No to rest.

When was this "preacher" preaching? 2000's? 1990's? 1980's? 20th century? significantly before? This one.

Was/is he considered a revolutionary? YES! Was/is he considered at all by academics or those "in the know" in what he preached? Please rephrase.
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 5:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rephrased: Just as astronomers may know Carl Sagan, or authors may know Michael Crichton (lets assume no internet!) would the people who are "in the know" in this preacher's particular field know of him? I'm guessing yes as he was considered a revolutionary...

Based on your enthusiasm...was he actually part of a revolutionary war? If so, American? French? Was this in the 1700's? 1600's? Significantly before? Like Spartacus before? More in-between?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 6:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rephrased: Just as astronomers may know Carl Sagan, or authors may know Michael Crichton (lets assume no internet!) would the people who are "in the know" in this preacher's particular field know of him? I'm guessing yes as he was considered a revolutionary... EVERYBODY knows who this person was.

Based on your enthusiasm...was he actually part of a revolutionary war? Yesish. If so, American? This one. French? Was this in the 1700's? This one. 1600's? Significantly before? Like Spartacus before? More in-between?
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of the founding fathers of the US?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 441
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it Thomas Jefferson or George Washington, who both owned (a LOT of) slaves and both had severe difficulties reconciling their political views with the reality of their lives as slaveowners? I'm guessing Jefferson, who wrote the bit about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it Thomas Jefferson or George Washington, who both owned (a LOT of) slaves and both had severe difficulties reconciling their political views with the reality of their lives as slaveowners? Yes. I'm guessing Jefferson, who wrote the bit about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. BINGO! Now WHY (according to some accounts), would freeing his slaves have ruined Jefferson. This is a more interesting answer than you think.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 442
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, NOT because they were worth a lot of money? Yet he would still have been ruined financially? He would have lost money (in the bank/investments)? Real property other than slaves?

Would this same loss of property/rep have applied to Washington, had he freed his slaves while he was still alive? To any other slaveowner?

It would possibly have ruined his rep ... because others would have been aware of his freeing his slaves? Because others would disapprove? Would it have ruined his rep among those who knew him personally? Among people in the US? Other countries? Is it his reputation for something in particular -- like his writing, intelligence, morals, etc? Would some people sympathize or approve of his action even as his rep suffered among others?

Anything to do with Sally Hemings?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, NOT because they were worth a lot of money? Yes, it was because they were worth money, but there was a particular reason he needed to hold on to something worth a lot of money. Yet he would still have been ruined financially? Yes. He would have lost money (in the bank/investments)? Yope. Real property other than slaves? Yope.

Would this same loss of property/rep have applied to Washington, had he freed his slaves while he was still alive? No idea, sorry. To any other slaveowner? Depending on the other slaveowner's financial situation, it could have.

It would possibly have ruined his rep ... because others would have been aware of his freeing his slaves? Because others would disapprove? Would it have ruined his rep among those who knew him personally? Among people in the US? Other countries? Is it his reputation for something in particular -- like his writing, intelligence, morals, etc? Would some people sympathize or approve of his action even as his rep suffered among others? All irrelevant to the puzzle.

Anything to do with Sally Hemings? No more than any other of Jefferson's slaves.
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 105
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HINT: There are other ways for a person to be ruined financially than the immediate loss of property.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Post Number: 443
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 1:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were slaves the only thing he owned at the time? Did he have debts? Was he impoverished? If they had been not slaves but some other property he could have lost, would he have been ruined?

Would he have had no workers to work his plantation, thus being unable to grow cotton/tobacco/whatever? Which was his main source of income?

I recall that Monticello was vacant and falling apart when a naval officer bought it and started restoring it -- I can't remember if it didn't go to Jefferson's heirs or he didn't have any or what... any relevance?

Anything to do with the 3/5ths rule regarding slaves and how they were taxed? The cotton gin?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 110
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 7:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were slaves the only thing he owned at the time? No, but they were one of the most valuable things he owned. Did he have debts? YES! Was he impoverished? No, just in severe debt. If they had been not slaves but some other property he could have lost, would he have been ruined? I don't completely understand the question, but I'll say yes. There was a reason he needed to have a lot of property on hand, and slaves were what he happened to have that could serve that purpose.

Would he have had no workers to work his plantation, thus being unable to grow cotton/tobacco/whatever? Which was his main source of income? Nothing to do with this.

I recall that Monticello was vacant and falling apart when a naval officer bought it and started restoring it -- I can't remember if it didn't go to Jefferson's heirs or he didn't have any or what... any relevance? None whatsoever.

Anything to do with the 3/5ths rule regarding slaves and how they were taxed? The cotton gin? No to all.
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 111
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 8:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, the 3/5ths rule didn't have to do with taxes. It had to do with how slaves were counted in the census for the purpose of apportioning Congressional districts. The southern states wanted to include slaves in the ennumeration of the population so that they would get more seats in the House of Representatives. The northern states didn't want slaves to count (as it would have given slave states a FAR higher ratio of Representatives to voters than free states), so they finally agreed on the 3/5ths rule.
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 9:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he need the slaves for collateral for a loan?
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 114
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he need the slaves for collateral for a loan? YES!!!!

******************SPOILER!!!!********************
In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson preached that "all Men are created equal," and that their "unalienable Rights" included "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." Jefferson also owned slaves his entire life, a fact that has left many historians puzzled as to how there could be such a striking difference between his words and his actions.

However, many people now believe that Jefferson secretly opposed slavery (some sources even suggest his early drafts of the Declaration included a passage denouncing slavery, which the Southern delegates forced him to remove). According to my high school history teacher, Jefferson always wanted to free his slaves (which were mostly inherited; he didn't buy them at a market or anything), but he had large debts throughout his life, which forced him to keep his slaves so that they could be used as collateral for loans. So instead, he tried to treat his slaves as humanely as he could for the most part (yes, I know about Sally Hemmings), then freed them in his will.

Hope you all enjoyed the puzzle!
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 1:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yay! I had fun AND learned =D
Rcs (Rcs)
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Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't quote me on all of this; I think a lot of it's still disputed. This is just my high school U.S. History teacher's account of it, but it stuck with me.
Usmcfink (Usmcfink)
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Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 1:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noted. =)

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