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Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 603
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

True story:

A submarine, in peacetime, deliberately attacked a civilian ship loaded with hundreds of innocent people. The ship sank, and at least a dozen people died. The captain was commended. Explain.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 309
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen in the north of Europe?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 604
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 2:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen in the north of Europe? No.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 4:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen in [LTPF list of centuries]? Is it relevant who was on the civilian ship?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did this happen in [LTPF list of centuries]? Is it relevant who was on the civilian ship? /b{Yes.}

This occurred in the 20th century. The only sinking of a ship by a submarine in the 19th was the CSS Hunley during the Civil War, and it sank the warship USS Housatonic. I'm unaware of any sinkings, other than accidental ones, carried out by subs in the 21st century. The last deliberate "kill" by a sub was during the Falklands War.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sunk ship carry any relevant cargo?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 608
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sunk ship carry any relevant cargo? No, it was purely a passenger vessel.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the ship carry an important person, then??

Was the submarine from a different country than the sunk ship?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1659
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Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there an outbreak of a deadly disease on board the ship?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 611
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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 3:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the ship carry an important person, then?? Not a VIP, no.

Was the submarine from a different country than the sunk ship? Yes.

Was there an outbreak of a deadly disease on board the ship? No.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

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Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the countries enemies (although no war was declared between them)?

Was the captain of the submarine trying to avoid something? Cause something to happen? Did he attack the ship deliberately?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1663
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the passengers trying to enter a particular country illegally?

Was the captain of the sub's intention to sink the ship? Did the sub rescue the surviving passengers? Was the captain ordered to open fire or did he use his own judgement?

I want to check a few assumptions. The dozen or so people who died were all passengers on the ship? they died as a direct result of the sub attack? Did the sub actually fire any torpedos or other missiles? The captain who was commended was the captain of the submarine?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 613
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the countries enemies (although no war was declared between them)? No.

Was the captain of the submarine trying to avoid something? No. Cause something to happen? Yes. Did he attack the ship deliberately? Yes.

Were the passengers trying to enter a particular country illegally? No.

Was the captain of the sub's intention to sink the ship? No. Did the sub rescue the surviving passengers? Some of them, other vessels helped. Was the captain ordered to open fire or did he use his own judgement? Used his own judgement.

I want to check a few assumptions. The dozen or so people who died were all passengers on the ship? Yope. they died as a direct result of the sub attack? Yes. Did the sub actually fire any torpedos or other missiles? Yes. The captain who was commended was the captain of the submarine? Yes.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1667
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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub captain feel threatened by the ship? Did he act on erroneous information? Did the ship act in an agressive manner? anything to do with display of flags? Was there any communication between the ship and the sub before they opened fire? Did any of the subs crew die?

Was the shot meant only as a warning? Did the sub only fire one missile/torpedo

Was there some political tension which led to this incident?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the captain of the submarine trying to get rid of the torpedo? Did he need a fire signal?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the sub captain feel threatened by the ship? No. Did he act on erroneous information? No. Did the ship act in an agressive manner? Hm... Yope. anything to do with display of flags? No. Was there any communication between the ship and the sub before they opened fire? Yes. Did any of the subs crew die? No.

Was the shot meant only as a warning? He fired several warning shots before firing into the ship. Did the sub only fire one missile/torpedo No.

Was there some political tension which led to this incident? No.

Was the captain of the submarine trying to get rid of the torpedo? No. Did he need a fire signal? No.
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Username: Kdoc

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Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the ship also carry some non-innocent people? were there criminals on the ship? hi-jackers? was the sub acting to protect the innocent ship people? by attacking non innocent ship people?

was the scenario that the ship had been taken over by hijackers and the sub was reacting to this by firing on the hijackers to release the captive innocent people on the ship?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Username: Jenburdoo

Post Number: 615
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the ship also carry some non-innocent people? Yes. were there criminals on the ship? Yes. hi-jackers? was the sub acting to protect the innocent ship people? Yes. by attacking non innocent ship people? Yes.

was the scenario that the ship had been taken over by hijackers and the sub was reacting to this by firing on the hijackers to release the captive innocent people on the ship? Yes.

***** Spoiler **********

This occurred in 1927, on the Yangtse River in China. Western navies were responsible for policing river traffic, which was plagued by river pirates who would hijack ships and hold their passengers and cargo for ransom from the owners.

In this case, the steamer SS Irene, having been hijacked, was trying to get past the British submarine L4. L4's captain fired several shots across Irene's bow with his deck gun, before firing a shot into the engine room with the intention of stopping the ship. The ship caught fire and eventually sank. It was determined afterwards that most of the casualties were probably pirates, killed in the confusion of abandoning ship.
Achillesheel (Achillesheel)
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Username: Achillesheel

Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2009
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The captain who was commended is the captain of the ship who saved the lived of the other passengers on board.

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