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Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From his point of view, it was the best thing he could do for him.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1187
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He = Alive? H? A? M?

He = John Doe?

From John Doe's point of view?

It = an action?

Was the best thing?

John Doe?

Could do?
For John Doe?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 124
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He = Alive? Not anymore. H? A? M? Yes to all

He = John Doe? OK, if you wish

From John Doe's point of view?
It = an action? Yes

Was the best thing? Yes


John Doe? Yes

Could do? Yes
For John Doe? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1190
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From John Doe's point of view, doing some action that resulted in death was the best thing he could do for "him"?

"Him" = Alive? H? A? M?

Suicide relevant?
Altruism?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 127
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From John Doe's point of view, doing some action that resulted in death was the best thing he could do for "him"? Exactly

"Him" = Alive? Yope H? A? M? Yes to all

Suicide relevant? Yope
Altruism? Yesish to yope
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1193
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Him = Bob Doe?

Bob Doe = known to John Doe?

Did John Doe effect his own death?

Did Bob Doe want John Doe to do what he thought to do?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 128
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Him = Bob Doe? OK

Bob Doe = known to John Doe? Yes

Did John Doe effect his own death? You mean whether he killed himself with his own hand? Then No

Did Bob Doe want John Doe to do what he thought to do? please rephrase
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1195
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob dead when John decided that that the best thing that John could do for Bob was to [Some action ultimately resulting in John's death]?

Would Bob find [Some action ultimately resulting in John's death] to be the best thing John could do for Bob?

Bob and John = family? Related in some strange way? Friends? Co-workers? something else?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 130
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob dead when John decided that that the best thing that John could do for Bob was to [Some action ultimately resulting in John's death]? No

Would Bob find [Some action ultimately resulting in John's death] to be the best thing John could do for Bob? Definitely not!

Bob and John = family? No Related in some strange way? Yes Friends? Yes Co-workers? Noish to yope something else? Yes
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1197
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John go through with [the action that ultimate results in John's death]? Are John and Bob both alive at the beginning of this puzzle? At the end? Does any time actually pass in this puzzle? Did Bob and John have some kind of common goal?
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1198
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob work for John? Or did John work for Bob? Did they have a relationship similar to this?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 132
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John go through with [the action that ultimate results in John's death]? You mean whether he successfully finished it? Yes. Are John and Bob both alive at the beginning of this puzzle? YesAt the end? Only Bob is Does any time actually pass in this puzzle? Yes Did Bob and John have some kind of common goal? Yope

Did Bob work for John? No Or did John work for Bob? No Did they have a relationship similar to this? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1200
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are John's and Bob's professions relevant? Setting of this puzzle relevant? Did John think he was somehow fulfilling Bob's wishes? Did he misinterpret something Bob said? or did?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are John's and Bob's professions relevant? Yes Setting of this puzzle relevant? Yes Did John think he was somehow fulfilling Bob's wishes? No Did he misinterpret something Bob said? No or did? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1202
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob know that John planned to do something that would result in John's death? Did John know that what he did would result in his death?
Kaygee?

quote:

Let's figure out the profession:
Artistic /musical /writer?
Banking / financial / real estate?
Clerical / Administrative?
Computer related / Hardware ?
Construction / Craftsman ?
Education / Academic Research ?
Entertainment / Media ?
Executive / Management ?
Hospitality / Travel ?
Legal Services ?
Manufacturing / Distributions ?
Medical / Health Services ?
Politics / Government / Military ?
Security / Law Enforcement?
Sales / Marketing ?
Technical / Science / Engineering ?
Teaching / Child care?
Transportation /Livery / Trucking ?



Thanks, Kaygee.
Was John's profession one of the above? Was Bob's profession one of the above? Did they have similar jobs? Did they have the same job, but they just didn't work together?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 134
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob know that John planned to do something that would result in John's death? No Did John know that what he did would result in his death? He knew it probably would.


Was John's profession one of the above? I think "clerical" would be the closest Was Bob's profession one of the above? Same for Bob Did they have similar jobs? Yes Did they have the same job, but they just didn't work together? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1205
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the time frame or era in which this occurs relevant to the puzzle? Is geographical location (e.g., United States, China, Bulgaria, Gobi Desert, Antarctica, Mount Kilimanjaro)? The type of location (e.g., structure, conveyance, mountaintop)? Did Bob and John have the same employer? Did either? or both? work in an office? Did either? or both? work outside?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 135
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the time frame or era in which this occurs relevant to the puzzle? Yes Is geographical location (e.g., United States, China, Bulgaria, Gobi Desert, Antarctica, Mount Kilimanjaro)? Yes The type of location (e.g., structure, conveyance, mountaintop)? Yes Did Bob and John have the same employer? Yes Did either? or both? work in an office? No Did either? or both? work outside? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1206
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could? Did? This occur:

Prior to 4000 BC?
4000 BC - 2000 BC?
1999 BC - AD 50?
AD 51 - AD 476?
AD 478 - AD 1500?
AD 1501 - AD 1776?
AD 1777 - AD 1850?
AD 1851 - AD 1944?
AD 1945 - AD 2007?
AD 2008 - Future?

In North America?
South America?
Europe?
Asia?
Australia?
Africa?
Antarctica?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 136
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could? Did? This occur:

Prior to 4000 BC? Couldn't and didn't
4000 BC - 2000 BC? Couldn't and didn't
1999 BC - AD 50? Couldn't and didn't
AD 51 - AD 476? Couldn't and didn't
AD 478 - AD 1500? Could and did
AD 1501 - AD 1776? Could but didn't
AD 1777 - AD 1850? Could but didn't
AD 1851 - AD 1944? Could but didn't
AD 1945 - AD 2007? Could but didn't
AD 2008 - Future? Could but didn't

In North America? Couldn't and didn't
South America? Couldn't and didn't
Europe? Could and did
Asia? Couldn't and didn't}
Australia? Couldn't and didn't
Africa? Couldn't and didn't
Antarctica? Couldn't and didn't
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1209
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could? Did? This occur:

In what is now...
Great Britain and Ireland?
Portugal?
Spain?
France?
Germany?
Poland?
Italy?

Between AD 478 - AD 479?
AD 480 - 1000?
AD 1001 - 1200?
AD 1201 - 1400?
AD 1401 - 1500?

Is technology relevant? Geography? Politics? Physiography? Human Geography? History?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is religion relevant?

If so, which of these are relevant?
Judaism?
Christianity?
Islam?
Hinduism?
(Is there an LTPF list of religions? :-P)

Is medicine relevant? Epidemics of disease?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Username: Alhucema

Post Number: 138
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could? Did? This occur:

In what is now...
Great Britain and Ireland?
Portugal?
Spain?
France?
Germany?
Poland? This
Italy?

However, it could have happened virtually anywhere in Europe

Between AD 478 - AD 479? I am not sure whether it could but it didn't
AD 480 - 1000? I am not sure whether it could but it didn't
AD 1001 - 1200? It probably could but didn't
AD 1201 - 1400? It could and did
AD 1401 - 1500? It could but didn't

Is technology relevant? No Geography? Noish Politics? Noish Physiography? No Human Geography? Don't think so History?Yesish to yope

Is religion relevant? Yes

If so, which of these are relevant?
Judaism?
Christianity? This
Islam?
Hinduism?
(Is there an LTPF list of religions? :-P) I have no idea, but Christianity is the only one relevant to this puzzle

Is medicine relevant? No Epidemics of disease?No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1232
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn. I guess it's not
THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 7:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn. I guess it's not
THE SPANISH INQUISITION! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Nor should you.:-))

Spanish Inquisition is not involved at all.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 7:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darn. I guess it's not
THE SPANISH INQUISITION! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Nor should you.:-))

Spanish Inquisition is not involved at all.
Vagary (Vagary)
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Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THE COMFY CHAIR and/or THE SOFT PILLOWS relevant?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John Doe a Christian? Was Bob Doe?

You stated that John Doe did not purposefully effect his own death. Was there a third person involved who did?

Was the cause of death...

(slowly expanding LTPF list of causes of death that I've been using)

Poison?
Blood loss?
Physical (not chemical, as with poison) organ damage?
Suffocation?
Infection?
Heart attack/failure?
Decapitation?
Electrocution?
Suicide?
Murder?
Starvation?
Dehydration?

Was Bob trying to commit suicide? Was he doing something that would have caused him to die while (according to John's religious beliefs) being condemned to hell? Something that wouldn't have caused him to die, but would have (again, according to John's beliefs) condemned him? Did John try to stop Bob from doing this? And die as a result?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 148
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THE COMFY CHAIR and/or THE SOFT PILLOWS relevant? Neither, I am afraid. Nor is the rack :-)).

Was John Doe a Christian? Yes Was Bob Doe? Yes

You stated that John Doe did not purposefully effect his own death. That's correct Was there a third person involved who did? No third person did

Was the cause of death...

(slowly expanding LTPF list of causes of death that I've been using)

Poison? No
Blood loss? Yes
Physical (not chemical, as with poison) organ damage? Yes
Suffocation?Possibly
Infection? No
Heart attack/failure? Probably not, yet I cannot tell for sure
Decapitation? Probably not, yet I cannot tell for sure
Electrocution? That would be pretty difficult, given we are in the middle of the Middle Ages ;-))
Suicide? Noish
Murder? Noish to yope
Starvation? No
Dehydration? No

Was Bob trying to commit suicide? No Was he doing something that would have caused him to die while (according to John's religious beliefs) being condemned to hell No? Something that wouldn't have caused him to die, but would have (again, according to John's beliefs) condemned him? Yes Did John try to stop Bob from doing this? Yes And die as a result? Yesish

EXCELLENT QUESTIONS!
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1246
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you host a puzzle, you have to expect the Spanish Inquisition. It's the whole point.

So Bob was going to commit some kind of sin or something like something of that nature, or something?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 149
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you host a puzzle, you have to expect the Spanish Inquisition. It's the whole point. OK, I give up. Please feel free to poke me with the soft cushions with all the stuffing up one end.

So Bob was going to commit some kind of sin or something like something of that nature, or something? Something-ish like that. Yesish.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 58
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob believe that what he was doing was a sin? Are different sects of Christianity relevant? Catholic? Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Other? (Those are the only ones I can think of that (I think) were around at the time.)

Did John's form of Christianity never spread beyond Europe? Is that why this could never have happened outside Europe?

Did John try to do something that would have killed Bob? And did Bob kill John in self-defense? Exorcism relevant?

Fasting relevant? Dietary restrictions relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 153
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob believe that what he was doing was a sin? Um... difficult question. I do not think he was convinced it was a sin Are different sects of Christianity relevant? If you mean "sects" as "streams" then Yes Catholic? Yes Greek Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Other? No to the rest (Those are the only ones I can think of that (I think) were around at the time.)

Did John's form of Christianity never spread beyond Europe? It did Is that why this could never have happened outside Europe? I did not say it could NEVER have happened outside Europe; I was referring just to the period of time we are talking about

Did John try to do something that would have killed Bob? No And did Bob kill John in self-defense? No Exorcism relevant? No

Fasting relevant? No Dietary restrictions relevant? No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1305
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Which of the seven deadly sins is least dissimilar from Bob Doe was going to do? (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride)
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 165
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Which of the seven deadly sins is least dissimilar from Bob Doe was going to do? (lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, pride)

This is really difficult to answer. I would opt for lust, but beware a FA
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1319
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was whatever Bob did a transitive verb? An intransitive verb?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 168
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was whatever Bob did a transitive verb? An intransitive verb? Please specify
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1324
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there some kind of object of whatever Bob intended to do? (e.g. to dig a hole, or to do a barrel roll) Or was there no object? (e.g. to sleep, to blir)
If there was an object (of the action), was it an object (i.e., something tangible)? Is any one else relevant to the puzzle?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 169
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was there some kind of object of whatever Bob intended to do? (e.g. to dig a hole, or to do a barrel roll) Yesish Or was there no object? (e.g. to sleep, to blir)
If there was an object (of the action), was it an object (i.e., something tangible)Yes? Is any one else relevant to the puzzle? Yes
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1333
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Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the object of his action organic? Mineral?
Is the number of individuals relevant to the puzzle, excluding John Doe and Bob Doe, [insert LTPF list of positive integers]? Are they all adult?

Was John's mechanism of death:
Asphyxiation?
Exsanguination?
Decapitation?
Heart attack?
Stroke?
Hypothermia?
Hyperthermia?
Blunt trauma?
Dehydration?
Drowning?
Oh, and I can't forget....
Fatal hilarity?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the object of his action organic? Yes Mineral?No
Is the number of individuals relevant to the puzzle, excluding John Doe and Bob Doe, [insert LTPF list of positive integers]? There is one more person relevant, Are they all adult? which is adult.

Was John's mechanism of death:
Asphyxiation? Probably not
Exsanguination? Yes
Decapitation? Possibly
Heart attack? Unlikely but I cannot completely exclude this
Stroke? Unlikely but I cannot completely exclude this
Hypothermia? No
Hyperthermia? No
Blunt trauma? No
Dehydration? No
Drowning? No
Oh, and I can't forget....
Fatal hilarity? Interesting idea, but No
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1374
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John cut in any way?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 185
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John cut in any way? Please define what you mean by "cut in any way".
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 1380
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Posted on Friday, November 28, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was any part of John's body separated from a contiguous part of his body via the use of some instrument, or did the use of any such instrument result in the creation of an opening on any part of his body? (if that makes any sense)
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 186
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was any part of John's body separated from a contiguous part of his body via the use of some instrument, or did the use of any such instrument result in the creation of an opening on any part of his body? (if that makes any sense) Defined in this way, I must say No. But explore
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John struck with anything? Did he force his body into anything? Did he throw himself in front of the bullet? [figuratively speaking of course]
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was John struck with anything? No Did he force his body into anything? No Did he throw himself in front of the bullet? No [figuratively speaking of course]
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As nobody has visited this puzzle for a long time I am posting a RECAP:

The puzzle is set in what is now Poland, between 1201-1400 A.D.

John Doe and Bob Doe have similar jobs which can be defined as clerical. John and Bob are also friends. Both of them are Catholics.

John did something to prevent Bob from doing an action which would not result in Bobís death but which would have Ėin Johnís opinion Ė cause Bobís condemnation. John thought it was the best thing he could do for Bob, yet Bob did not think so. This action resulted in Johnís death. John did not commit suicide. The cause of his death was blood loss and organ damage, possibly even decapitation, which were not caused by any instrument. There is one more person involved.
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The jobs had to do with the death?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The jobs had to do with the death? Yes
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the third person (call him Trey) have a job similar to that of John and Bob?

Are any non-human animals relevant?

Did the "sinful" action which John tried to prevent Bob from doing involve Trey in any way?
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 4:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were John and Bob's jobs surgeons?
Were they going to transfer an organ to Trey?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the third person (call him Trey) have a job similar to that of John and Bob? No

Are any non-human animals relevant? Yes. Good question.

Did the "sinful" action which John tried to prevent Bob from doing involve Trey in any way? Yes

Were John and Bob's jobs surgeons? No
Were they going to transfer an organ to Trey? No, although in the Middle Ages, I reckon this would certainly be considered as a sin :-)))
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is animal sacrifice relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is animal sacrifice relevant? No
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 8:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did an animal directly cause the death of John? By biting? Tearing with claws? Some other way?

Was the sinful action something your average Catholic today would likely consider sinful?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did an animal directly cause the death of John? Yes By biting? Yes Tearing with claws? No Some other way? No

Was the sinful action something your average Catholic today would likely consider sinful? Difficult question. I think that it depends on his/her personal tolerance. Many Catholics would see it as something which shouldn't be done. But I am almost sure that at least some my Catholic friends would not consider it as a sin.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John provoke the animal? If not John, Bob? Trey?

Is Trey's occupation relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John provoke the animal? NoIf not John, Bob? Yes Trey? No

Is Trey's occupation relevant? No
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Bob's provocation of the animal itself the sin? The action he took which provoked the animal?

Did Bob's sinful action involve Trey? The animal?

Is this based on a historical event? Fairy tale? Other oral tradition? Fiction? FYOI?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 232
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Bob's provocation of the animal itself the sin? No The action he took which provoked the animal? No

Did Bob's sinful action involve Trey? Yes The animal? No

Is this based on a historical event? Fairy tale? Other oral tradition? Fiction? This FYOI?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the animal Bob's pet? Did John attack Bob to get him to stop his sinful action? At which point Bob let the animal loose on John?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 235
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the animal Bob's pet? Yesish, beware a FA Did John attack Bob to get him to stop his sinful action? No At which point Bob let the animal loose on John? This is not a yes/no question ;-)) And again, beware a FA
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 124
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 7:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the animal act on a command from Bob?

Are Bob and Trey related by blood? Is Trey H? A? M?

To confirm or deny the obvious FA from Peppa's seven deadly sins question: is Bob's sin sexual in nature? (Watch that get a "yope, beware FA.")
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the animal act on a command from Bob? Yes, beware a slight FA

Are Bob and Trey related by blood? Noish Is Trey H? Yes A? Yes M? No

To confirm or deny the obvious FA from Peppa's seven deadly sins question: is Bob's sin sexual in nature? (Watch that get a "yope, beware FA.") Difficult to answer; the closest answer would be Yope :-))
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 125
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No one can deny I saw that yope coming. :-P

Did Bob intend to command the animal to act? To attack?

Now I wonder how you can give a "noish" to "related by blood."

Is Trey F? Catholic? Is marriage relevant?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

o one can deny I saw that yope coming. :-P Yes, this wass what I'd call foresight :-))

Did Bob intend to command the animal to act? Yes To attack? Yes

Now I wonder how you can give a "noish" to "related by blood." Given the accuracy of your shots I think the moment to clarify this is not very far away :-)))

Is Trey F? Yes Catholic? Yes Is marriage relevant? Yes
Racoonieboy (Racoonieboy)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm... Trey and John <3? Are they gonna marry? If so... Did John die for Trey? And yes maybe this is FA!!!
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm... Trey and John <3? I beg your pardon? Are they gonna marry? No If so... Did John die for Trey? No And yes maybe this is FA!!! This time it is not ;-))
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Forgot about this one...

Are Bob and Trey going to marry? Was it this marriage that John considered sinful? Due to their "noish" blood relation? Did he attempt to stop it somehow?

Did Bob command the animal to attack John in response to John's attempt to stop his "sinful" action?

Is the "noish" blood relation noish because John is mistaken about it? Because it's quite distant? Because one of Bob and Trey are related by blood to someone the other was married to earlier in their life?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Bob and Trey going to marry? Yes Was it this marriage that John considered sinful? Yes Due to their "noish" blood relation? No Did he attempt to stop it somehow? Yes

Did Bob command the animal to attack John in response to John's attempt to stop his "sinful" action? Yes

Is the "noish" blood relation noish because John is mistaken about it? No Because it's quite distant? No Because one of Bob and Trey are related by blood to someone the other was married to earlier in their life? Yes

Excellent questions and a big leap forward. Keep up the good work :-))
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John consider the marriage sinful due to age of one of the participants? That one of the participants had previously divorced? Due to believing that Bob should not marry at all?

Would Bob's commanding of the animal to attack John be considered self-defense? Did John use physical force to try to stop Bob and Trey's marriage? Against Bob? Trey? Life-threatening force to Bob? To Trey?

Was Trey married to someone related to Bob earlier in her life? Bob's brother? Father? Son? Uncle? Nephew? Cousin?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 261
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Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did John consider the marriage sinful due to age of one of the participants? No That one of the participants had previously divorced? No Due to believing that Bob should not marry at all? Yes

Would Bob's commanding of the animal to attack John be considered self-defense? No Did John use physical force to try to stop Bob and Trey's marriage? Yes Against Bob? No Trey? Yes Life-threatening force to Bob? No To Trey? Yes

Was Trey married to someone related to Bob earlier in her life? Yes Bob's brother? Father? Yes Son? Uncle? Nephew? Cousin?
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 153
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Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Trey was formerly married to Bob's father. (We know that Trey is not Bob's biological mother, because the blood relation is noish.) Was Bob aware of this? Did Trey act as a stepmother to Bob?

Did John believe that Bob should not marry at all due to his job? And that marrying anyone would condemn him? So he attacked Trey with deadly force? Thinking it was the only way to save Bob from an eternity in hell? And Bob commanded the animal to attack John? And the animal killed John?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 8:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Trey was formerly married to Bob's father. Yes(We know that Trey is not Bob's biological mother, because the blood relation is noish.Exactly so. ) Was Bob aware of this? Yes Did Trey act as a stepmother to Bob? Not really.

Did John believe that Bob should not marry at all due to his job? Yes And that marrying anyone would condemn him? Yes So he attacked Trey with deadly force? Yes Thinking it was the only way to save Bob from an eternity in hell? Yes And Bob commanded the animal to attack John? Yes, with a really slight FA And the animal killed John? Yes, with a really slight FA
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob not intend for the animal to kill John? Only to drive him away? Did John then persist in attacking the animal? And did the animal then injure John? Who then died from his injuries?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob not intend for the animal to kill John? He wanted him to be killed Only to drive him away? See above Did John then persist in attacking the animal? John did not attack the FA animal And did the animal then injure John? Who then died from his injuries? Your previous assumptions were totally correct. The FA was related only to the word "animal"
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the animal a member of the biological kingdom Animalia?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 275
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the animal the same FA again a member of the biological kingdom Animalia? Yes
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 166
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All right, let's step back.

We know Bob commanded some entity to attack John. Call this entity Jason.

Is Jason alive, in the usual sense? Is Jason a member of the kingdom Animalia? Is Jason vertebrate? Reptile? Bird? Mammal? Human?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 276
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We know Bob commanded some entity Yes, with a slight FA to attack John. Yes Call this entity Jason. alright

Is this is the slight FA Jason alive, in the usual sense? Yes Is the same slight FA again Jason a member of the kingdom Animalia? Yes Is and again, a slight FAJason vertebrate? Yes Reptile? Bird? Mammal? Yes Human? No to the rest
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 168
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Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 10:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aha.

Jason includes more than one entity, then? Rename to "The Jason Club" for historical reasons. ;-)

Is The Jason Club a pack of dogs? Something else? And Bob released them on John?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 278
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Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aha.

Jason includes more than one entity, then? Yes Rename to "The Jason Club" for historical reasons. ;-) Ok ;-))

Is The Jason Club a pack of dogs? Yes Something else? And Bob released them on John? Exactly so.
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 3:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Bob a priest? Bishop? Monk? Some other position under the Catholic Church whose holders were expected to remain celibate? Is this why John thought Bob should not marry? Which led to him attacking Trey to save Bob's immortal soul? Which, from John's point of view, was the best thing he could do for Bob? Even though it resulted in John being killed by The Jason Club?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Post Number: 279
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Posted on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Bob a priest? Bishop? Monk? This one Some other position under the Catholic Church whose holders were expected to remain celibate? Yes this was the point Is this why John thought Bob should not marry? Exactly so Which led to him attacking Trey to save Bob's immortal soul? and bingo again Which, from John's point of view, was the best thing he could do for Bob? Yes Even though it resulted in John being killed by The Jason Club? Yes. There you are - you have said everything so I think it is time for the


****************SPOILER***********************



John and Bob are members of the Order of the Teutonic Knights. John is a bit older, very pious monk who had participated in the Crusades, and a sort of Bobís mentor. Bob is a son of a small yeoman; when he was a young boy, he nearly spoiled the marriage of his widowed father to a very young girl - Trey. His father in rage hurls him against a wall. Fearing to have killed him, his father promises that if the boy survives he would become a monk. Bob is raised in a strict monastic order, and has taken a vow of chastity. But he hates the religious life and one day runs away, heading home. John decides to bring him back. At home, Bob finds out that his father had died and only Trey is still living in his native castle. They fall in love and decide to marry. At the day of the marriage, John comes to the castle, and Bob invites him as his friend to the wedding. John, a fanatic fearing for Bobís soul, kills the bride, and Bob, in rage, sends the Jason Club - er, his pack of dogs - to tear John to pieces. John, dying, implores Bob to return back to the Order, which he does given that there is nothing more left for him to live for.

For John, the highest sacrifice was not his life but rather his soul Ė as he died without confession, he could not be sure that he would not go to Hell, but his friendship was so strong that he sacrificed his own soul to save Bob's.

This was the plot of a great film I liked very much, ĄThe Valley of the Bees". http://www.filmwalrus.com/2008/09/review-of-valley-of-bees.html

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this puzzle, and especially D_gordon for his brilliant questions and impressive finale :-))).
D_gordon (D_gordon)
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Post Number: 178
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Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 3:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for posting it, Alhucema. It was a very interesting puzzle, with a surprising twist (for me, anyway) on the title in the spoiler. "The Valley of the Bees" looks like an excellent movie as well.

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