| Author | Message | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2008 |
It cost so many lives... | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1672 Registered: 12-2004 |
Chernobyl? | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 605 Registered: 5-2003 |
Tobacco? Human lives? Location or time period relevant? Or, since it COST, rather than COSTS, is this something that is no longer used? Is it eaten? Smoked? Used in some other way? Is it wild or cultivated? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 310 Registered: 11-2008 |
Chernobyl? No; an interesting lateral twist, though ;-)) Tobacco? No Human lives? Yes Location or time period relevant? Yes to both Or, since it COST, rather than COSTS, is this something that is no longer used? It is still used, but you are OTRT Is it eaten? Yes Smoked? No Used in some other way? Yes Is it wild or cultivated? Mostly cultivated | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2008 |
The tomato, by every chance? Were all the people killed in the same way? Poisoned? Accidental death? Murder? Suicide? Were the people who ate it the people who died? Hm...cost...anything about money relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2008 |
The tomato, by every chance? No Were all the people killed in the same way? Yope Poisoned? No Accidental death? No Murder? Yes Suicide? No Were the people who ate it the people who died? Not necessarily Hm...cost...anything about money relevant? Yesish, given that money is almost always relevant | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 318 Registered: 6-2008 |
Is it a fruit? vegetable? legume? cereal? Did the people die as a consequence of the impact of the cultivation of this plant on the economy? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 314 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it a fruit? no vegetable? yesish legume? no cereal? no Did the people die as a consequence of the impact of the cultivation of this plant on the economy? no | ||
| Biograd (Biograd)
New member Username: Biograd Post Number: 319 Registered: 6-2008 |
Would you be able find this vegetable(ish) in a typical grocery store? The people murdered--did they grow the relevant plant? harvest it? sell it? purchase it? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2008 |
Would you be able find this vegetable(ish) in a typical grocery store? I would say yes The people murdered--did they grow the relevant plant? Irrelevant harvest it? Irrelevant sell it? Irrelevant purchase it? Irrelevant | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2008 |
Potato famine? Is it a drug of some kind? Does this take place in Europe? US? South America? Asia? Were the people all murdered, but in different ways? If so, were any stabbed? Shot? Starved? Force-fed? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2008 |
Potato famine? No Is it a drug of some kind? in a sense, it can also be used as a drug Does this take place in Europe? No US? No South America? Yes Asia? No Were the people all murdered, but in different ways? Yes If so, were any stabbed? Yes Shot? Yes Starved? No Force-fed? No | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 211 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is a war relevant? A war over this "deadly plant?" Let's clarify "in a sense." Insofar as it can be used as a drug -- is this drug illegal in the United States, as of right now? Is the coca plant relevant? Poppies? Mushrooms? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is a war relevant? No A war over this "deadly plant?" No Let's clarify "in a sense." OK Insofar as it can be used as a drug -- is this drug illegal in the United States, as of right now? No Is the coca plant relevant? No Poppies? No Mushrooms? No | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 58 Registered: 12-2008 |
The 'drug' nature - medicinal? Does this concern chocolate? Is the time period Mayan? Aztec (I know that is a North American civilisation, but is non-US North America or Central America relevant?) The deaths - ritual sacrifice? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2008 |
The 'drug' nature - medicinal? Yes Does this concern chocolate? No Is the time period Mayan? No Aztec No (I know that is a North American civilisation how do you know this?, but is non-US North America or Central America relevant?) Yes The deaths - ritual sacrifice? No | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2008 |
Did the murderers (murderer?) want to obtain the plant? If so, to use it as a drug? To use it as a food? Were the murders cause by an altered state of conciousness? Is the injury/disease/ailment that the drug treats relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2008 |
Did the murderers (murderer?) want to obtain the plant? No If so, to use it as a drug?No To use it as a food? No Were the murders cause by an altered state of conciousness? No Is the injury/disease/ailment that the drug treats relevant? No; the fact that it can also be used a drug is not relevant at all for the purposes of this puzzle | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2008 |
Is the plant used in any way to commit the murders? Okay, trying to get my head around these murders...did they occur at the same time? within a year? Within 10 years? 50 years? Could you call it a massacre? Did everyone murdered have something in common? Relevent where they were killed? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the plant used in any way to commit the murders? Yes Okay, trying to get my head around these murders...did they occur at the same time? Yes within a year? Within 10 years? 50 years? within several days Could you call it a massacre? that's what it is actually called Did everyone murdered have something in common? Yes Relevent where they were killed? Yes | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 218 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is religion relevant? Any form of religious persecution? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is religion relevant? No Any form of religious persecution? No | ||
| Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
New member Username: Doctapeppa Post Number: 1743 Registered: 12-2004 |
So I guess it's not a power plant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2008 |
So I guess it's not a power plant? that' s correct. It isn't. | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2008 |
The country where this massacre took place: Colombia? Peru? Bolivia? El Salvador? Honduras? Nicaragua? Panama? Guatamala? Costa Rica? Mexico? Was it linked to organised crime? politics? Was the government of the relevant country implicated? Any other country's government? The plant: was it a symbol of some sort? Flower for peace? Were either the victims or the perpetrators of the massacre associated with this plant? Is colour significant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2008 |
The country where this massacre took place: Colombia? Peru? Bolivia? El Salvador? Honduras? Nicaragua? Panama? Guatamala? Costa Rica? Mexico? Neither but keep guessing Was it linked to organised crime? No politics? Yes Was the government of the relevant country implicated? Yes Any other country's government? Noish The plant: was it a symbol of some sort? Yes, with SVV of "symbol" Flower for peace? No Were either the victims or the perpetrators of the massacre associated with this plant? No but explore Is colour significant? No, but OTRT-ish. | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2008 |
Were the victims tricked in some way, using the plant? Was the plant somehow used to identify who was to be killed? Does the plant have a certain cultural significance? Is it a flower? A tea, like yerba matte? Were these people rebels? Peaceful protesters? Guerillas? Members of a fallen government? Non-political civilians? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 355 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were the victims tricked in some way, using the plant? Yesish Was the plant somehow used to identify who was to be killed? Yes Does the plant have a certain cultural significance? No, but... Is it a flower? No A tea, like yerba matte? No Were these people rebels? No Peaceful protesters? No Guerillas? No Members of a fallen government? No Non-political civilians? Yes | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2008 |
The country: Brazil? Equador? Uruguay? Paraguay? Argentina? Chile? Venezuela? Guyana? Surinam? Guyane? The people killed: homeless? shanty-town dwellers? inhabitants of a particular town or region? male? female? adults? children? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 361 Registered: 11-2008 |
The country: Brazil? Equador? Uruguay? Paraguay? Argentina? Chile? Venezuela? Guyana? Surinam? Guyane? No The people killed: homeless? shanty-town dwellers? inhabitants of a particular town or region? male? female? adults? children? All of these could be involved; there was one thing they had in common | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2008 |
Were there relevant differences between the victims and the perpetrators? Tribal? Language? Caste? Place of origin? Is some form of colonialism involved? empire? conquest? The plant - a type of tree? nut? seaweed? grass? Century: 20th? 19th? 18th? [LTPF list of centuries allowed?] And on checking back, Belize seems to be the only country I have missed out in Central or South America (although I may of course have forgotten others!). Is it Belize, or are modern country boundaries not relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2008 |
Were there relevant differences between the victims and the perpetrators? Yes Tribal? Language? Yes Caste? Place of origin? Yes Is some form of colonialism involved? empire? conquest? Sort of a conquest-ish The plant - a type of tree? No nut? No seaweed? No grass? No -we have already established that it can be used as vegetable and as a medicinal drug Century: 20th? This 19th? 18th? [LTPF list of centuries allowed?] And on checking back, Belize seems to be the only country I have missed out in Central or South America (although I may of course have forgotten others!). Is it Belize, or are modern country boundaries not relevant? It is not Belize, and modern boundaries are still relevant. Moreover, most of the boundaries of the relevant country cannot be changed whatsoever. | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 123 Registered: 12-2008 |
Ah yes. FA! The country is, presumably, one of the islands off the coast of America. kicks himself . Language spoken by the perpetrators: English? Spanish? French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak? Language spoken by the victims: English? Spanish? French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak? Were the perpetrators of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? The victims of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? The plant in question - chosen by the perpetrators to signal who to kill? or a plant used by the victims? Was this plant, in the main, eaten by the victims? worn by the victims? grown by the victims? used by the victims for some other purpose? | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 223 Registered: 11-2008 |
Falkland Islands relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 365 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ah yes. FA! The country is, presumably, one of the islands off the coast of America. Exactly Language spoken by the perpetrators: English? Spanish? This French? Portuguese? Creole? Carib? Arawak? Language spoken by the victims: English? Spanish? French? possibly this Portuguese? Creole? This Carib? Arawak? Were the perpetrators of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? could be a mixture of all The victims of (mainly) European descent? African descent? American Indian descent? Other American descent? again could be a mixture of all, with the African descent prevailing The plant in question - chosen by the perpetrators to signal who to kill? Yes - explore or a plant used by the victims? Was this plant, in the main, eaten by the victims? Irr worn by the victims? Irr grown by the victims? Irr used by the victims for some other purpose? Irr Falkland Islands relevant? No | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 126 Registered: 12-2008 |
Is the slave trade relevant? The plant linked to the slave plantations? Coffee? Sugar cane? Is the plant signal linked to an event in the plant's life cycle? | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2008 |
Trinidad and Tobago? Antigua? Haiti? Dominican Republic (or that entire island?)? Jamaica? Grenada? Caymans? Was the plant given to/placed with the victims earlier, to signal to the killers who to kill? Was it given to the victims at any point? Planted in their yards? Planted anywhere relevant? Did the killers use some aspect of the plant to decide who was to die? Or to justify themselves? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 369 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the slave trade relevant? No The plant linked to the slave plantations? No Coffee? No Sugar cane? No Is the plant signal linked to an event in the plant's life cycle? No Trinidad and Tobago? Antigua? Haiti? This-ish Dominican Republic This (or that entire island?)? Jamaica? Grenada? Caymans? Was the plant given to/placed with the victims earlier, to signal to the killers who to kill? Yesish - explore Was it given to the victims at any point? Yesish Planted in their yards? No Planted anywhere relevant? No Did the killers use some aspect of the plant to decide who was to die? Yes - explore Or to justify themselves? No Excellent questions! | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2008 |
The timescale involved - was the plant given to the victims within the previous day? 48 hours? week? The aspect of the plant: some part of it? petals? leaves? buds? seeds? its scent? The method of murder relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 370 Registered: 11-2008 |
The timescale involved - was the plant given FA to the victims within the previous day? 48 hours? week? Immediately before they were murdered The aspect of the plant: some part of it? petals? leaves? buds? seeds? I think in this case the leaves were used, but the entire plant would also work its scent? No The method of murder relevant? Not really, besides the fact it was violent; we have already established that some of the victims were stabbed, others shot, there must have been other violent methods as well | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2008 |
So not given- is the plant rubbed on the victims? fed to them? attached to them without their knowledge? Does the plant affect the victims in some way? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 372 Registered: 11-2008 |
So not given- is the plant rubbed on the victims? fed to them? attached to them without their knowledge? None of these Does the plant affect the victims in some way? No - it does not even touch them | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2008 |
The plant is used immediately before the killings? But does not touch the victims? Is it taboo to the victims? Or sacred? Do they react to it in some way that betrays them? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2008 |
The plant is used immediately before the killings? Yes But does not touch the victims? Exactly. Is it taboo to the victims? No Or sacred? No Do they react to it in some way that betrays them? Yes | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 135 Registered: 12-2008 |
A glimmer of light here... Are the intended victims difficult to distinguish physically from other members of the population? Do the perpetrators need some way to detect their victims? Is the plant used at a checkpoint? Are the victims asked to identify the plant? Does the name differ in the two languages? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 375 Registered: 11-2008 |
A glimmer of light here... ...the one at the end of the tunnel :-)) Are the intended victims difficult to distinguish physically from other members of the population? Yes Do the perpetrators need some way to detect their victims? Yes Is the plant used at a checkpoint? Yesish Are the victims asked to identify the plant? Yes Does the name differ in the two languages? Yes You got it! The only thing left is the name of the plant; I am already preparing a $poiler | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2008 |
Do you want us to try and identify the plant? Is it a cultivated plant? if so, is it grown as a human food crop? animal fodder? as a source of oil? Or is it a wild plant? Do the victims realise they are being targeted? Do they know the name of the plant in the perpetrators' language? | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 138 Registered: 12-2008 |
Just realised that this bears a remarkable similarity to the story of the Gileads and Ephraimites. So is the test a shibboleth? Do they pronounce the names differently, even though they are similar words? Spanish relevant, so some confusion over /s/, /sh/, /th/ phonemes? or the /l/ and /r/ phonemes? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2008 |
Do you want us to try and identify the plant? Yes; the English version of its name will do Is it a cultivated plant? Yesif so, is it grown as a human food crop? This animal fodder? as a source of oil? Or is it a wild plant? Do the victims realise they are being targeted? Probably not Do they know the name of the plant in the perpetrators' language? Yes Just realised that this bears a remarkable similarity to the story of the Gileads and Ephraimites. Exactly so. So is the test a shibboleth? Yes Do they pronounce the names differently, even though they are similar words? Yesish Spanish relevant, so some confusion over /s/, /sh/, /th/ phonemes? or the /l/ and /r/ This phonemes? | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 139 Registered: 12-2008 |
Ok - my Spanish is almost non-existent, and although I speak some French, I'm not sure that's going to help, so I'm afraid I'll have to resort to a list approach. Vegetable yesish, and leaves relevant - spice? herb? Dill? Coriander? Basil? Bay? Oregano? Marjoram? Mint? Tarragon? Fennel? Parsley? Sage? Rosemary? and Thyme? And were they going to Scarborough Fair... | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 378 Registered: 11-2008 |
Ok - my Spanish is almost non-existent, and although I speak some French, I'm not sure that's going to help, so I'm afraid I'll have to resort to a list approach. Vegetable yesish, and leaves relevant - spice? herb? Dill? Coriander? Basil? Bay? Oregano? Marjoram? Mint? Tarragon? Fennel? Parsley? This Sage? Rosemary? and Thyme? And were they going to Scarborough Fair... Given the topic of the puzzle, it may seem inappropriate, but I have been humming this for two days and I can now post a **************SPOILER******** In October 1937, Dominican dictator Rafael Leónidas Trujillo Molina ordered the execution of the Haitian population living close to the borders with Haiti. 17,000 to 35,000 Haitian civilians were massacred with machetes, clubs and knives by Dominican soldiers, civilians and local political authorities over a span of approximately five days, from October 2 to October 8, 1937. This infamous act would later become known as the Parsley Massacre due to the shibboleth which Trujillo had his soldiers apply to determine whether or not those living on the border were native Dominicans who spoke Spanish fluently. The soldiers would hold up a sprig of parsley, ask "What is this?", and those who could not pronounce the Spanish word for parsley, "perejil", were assumed to be Haitian and killed. Haitian Creole is a French-based language with the "r" sounding similarly as in French, which makes it difficult if not impossible for the Haitians to pronounce the rolled Spanish "r". The alleged reason was that Haitians stole cattle and crops from Dominican residents of the borderlands, the actual one was trying to avoid Haitians settling on the Dominican land (and Haiti subsequently claiming part of this land), and ethnical cleansing making the population more homogeneous and less resistant to Trujillo’s dictatorship. No international protest was ever raised against this atrocity. If you are interested, you will find more information in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsley_Massacre which I used as a source of this information. Thanks to everyone who has participated and especially to Oisin for the clever questions leading to the final solution. You have been simply excellent. I am looking forward to meeting you at another puzzle, hopefully with a less gloomy topic. | ||
| Oisin (Oisin)
New member Username: Oisin Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2008 |
Excellent puzzle, Alhucema. And a fascinating link. Thank you! | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2008 |
Nice puzzle. I had a feeling I should have asked if a shibboleth was relevant -- the fact that the word means "ear of grain" was putting it in my mind. The same concept was used in the Bible, which originated the word "shibboleth" as meaning "a test or password to distinguish one group from another. "Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say Shibboleth.' If anyone said, 'Sibboleth', because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion." --Judges 12:5-6 | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 386 Registered: 11-2008 |
Thank you for the reference, D_gordon and Oisin. I must confess that when Oisin mentioned it several posts ago, I had to bring my Bible and look for this section, as I knew just the word "shibboleth" as "password", and did not realize that it has Biblical connotations. Shame on me ;-)) But it is one of the things I like on the LTPF - that you guys make me look for information which is outside the area of thinking I am usually moving in. But this is lateral thinking in its pure sense, isn't it? Thank you again, and if you like, it would be nice to meet you at my new puzzle |
