| Author | Message | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2003 |
The water turned cold. The man died. Explain. | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 245 Registered: 11-2008 |
Let's call the man John. The water that (by weight) constitutes 70% of John's body? Some water external to John's body? In contact with it at the time of death? Near the time of death? Is the water dihydrogen monoxide? Is John human? adult? male? Did the water get colder than: 32 degrees F (0 C)? 50 degrees F (10 C)? 68 degrees F? (20 C)? (continue in increments of 10 C up to 100 C)? Did the water start at (same list, although also include >100 C)? Did John die because of... Poison? Blood loss? Physical (not chemical, as with poison) organ damage? Suffocation? Infection? Heart attack/failure? Decapitation? Electrocution? Suicide? Murder? Starvation? Dehydration? Is any form of mental illness relevant? John's? Someone else's? Are any ancient Greek city-states relevant? ;-) | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2008 |
did the man die because the water turned cold? Was it believed that the man could keep the water from turning cold? Was any wizardry or magic involved? real or imagined? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 429 Registered: 6-2003 |
D_gordon: Let's call the man John. Okie-doke. The water that (by weight) constitutes 70% of John's body? no Some water external to John's body? yes In contact with it at the time of death? yes Near the time of death? also yes Is the water dihydrogen monoxide? no, it's hydrogen hydroxide ;) Is John human? adult? male? yes to all Did the water get colder than: 32 degrees F (0 C)? 50 degrees F (10 C)? 68 degrees F? (20 C)? (continue in increments of 10 C up to 100 C)? Did the water start at (same list, although also include >100 C)? not sure - the exact temperature isn't really relevant anyway Did John die because of... Poison? no Blood loss? yes Physical (not chemical, as with poison) organ damage? only really insofar as they are damaged by blood loss Suffocation? Infection? Heart attack/failure? Decapitation? Electrocution? Suicide? Murder? Starvation? Dehydration? no to the rest Is any form of mental illness relevant? no John's? Someone else's? Are any ancient Greek city-states relevant? ;-) unfortunately not (: Bolapera: did the man die because the water turned cold? not directly, no Was it believed that the man could keep the water from turning cold? no Was any wizardry or magic involved? no real or imagined? | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 102 Registered: 12-2008 |
Cold shock? hypothermia? Did the water turn cold before he came into contact with it? Hit an iceberg while in a ship? Hit in the head by hail or a large chunk of ice? Hit by blue ice? Sleeping in a kiddie pool and the water became too cold for him to survive (it could happen..)? Trying to swim but the water was too cold for him to move? Was he truly alive in the beginning? If so, was he in a state that would have enabled him to possibly be revived in the future? | ||
| Rcs (Rcs)
New member Username: Rcs Post Number: 344 Registered: 9-2008 |
Is any kind of change of state of matter relevant? If so, freezing? melting? boiling? evaporation? condensation? sublimation? some other change of state? Era relevant? Insert LTPF list of centuries. Location? Insert LTPF list of countries. John's occupation relevant? Was he doing something risky when this happened? Some sort of stunt? Did anyone else die along with John? Is the reason the water turned cold relevant? | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2008 |
Did he become so cold that his blood expanded to the point where his skin exploded? Did he fall for any hoax that led to his demise? | ||
| Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
New member Username: Arek_fu Post Number: 611 Registered: 12-2007 |
Was he a tutor? (Trying not to $poil.) | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 432 Registered: 6-2003 |
Bolapera: Cold shock? no hypothermia? no Did the water turn cold before he came into contact with it? NO Hit an iceberg while in a ship? no Hit in the head by hail or a large chunk of ice? no Hit by blue ice? no Sleeping in a kiddie pool and the water became too cold for him to survive (it could happen..)? Wouldn't look fantastic on one's death certificate though, I'd imagine! Fortunately for John, this isn't it. Trying to swim no but the water was too cold for him to move? Was he truly alive in the beginning? indeed If so, was he in a state that would have enabled him to possibly be revived in the future? nope - he is absolutely, irreversibly, literally dead. Rcs: Is any kind of change of state of matter relevant? If so, freezing? melting? boiling? evaporation? condensation? sublimation? some other change of state? none of these Era relevant? to some extent Insert LTPF list of centuries. 20th century onwards Location? to some extent Insert LTPF list of countries. could be almost any country, with at least one important criterion. John's occupation relevant? Was he doing something risky when this happened? Some sort of stunt? Did anyone else die along with John? no to these Is the reason the water turned cold relevant? YES Bolapera: Did he become so cold that his blood expanded to the point where his skin exploded? thankfully not Did he fall for any hoax that led to his demise? no, with a very big -ish Arek_fu: Was he a tutor? irr. (Trying not to $poil.) unfortunately, that doesn't yet seem to be a problem - what were you thinking of? | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2008 |
Did parts of his body fall off because they were frozen? and then he lost blood from where they fell off? | ||
| Adryghi (Adryghi)
New member Username: Adryghi Post Number: 131 Registered: 1-2008 |
Is the amount of water involved relevant? If yes, the amount of water could fit into: - a thimble - a cup - a bucket - a barrel - a swimming pool - a lake - a sea - an ocean Is it stagnant water? Running water? The water turned cold by the help of nature? By the help of man? | ||
| Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
New member Username: Arek_fu Post Number: 616 Registered: 12-2007 |
I was thinking about Seneca's death. Did someone/something artificially extract heat from the water, thereby reducing its temperature? Or did the water come into contact with a cooler body/environment and reach equilibrium? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 434 Registered: 6-2003 |
Bolapera: Did parts of his body fall off because they were frozen? and then he lost blood from where they fell off? no to these Adryghi: Is the amount of water involved relevant? to some extent If yes, the amount of water could fit into: - a thimble - a cup - a bucket - a barrel - a swimming pool - a lake - a sea - an ocean difficult to say, because... Is it stagnant water? no Running water? yes The water turned cold by the help of nature? no By the help of man? yes Arek_fu: Did someone/something artificially extract heat from the water, thereby reducing its temperature? Or did the water come into contact with a cooler body/environment and reach equilibrium? see above | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2008 |
was he excercising in water that became too cold? Is a machine that works by using cold water relevant to his death? Were the mans hands severed? one or both? Legs? one or both? hole in chest? in stomach? Was the man anemic? any other health condition relevant to his death? was he using cold-water therapy techniques no part of the water was frozen right? | ||
| Adryghi (Adryghi)
New member Username: Adryghi Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2008 |
Did he cool the water himself? Did somebody else cool the water? Or he cooled the water together with somebody? Other people involved? | ||
| Adryghi (Adryghi)
New member Username: Adryghi Post Number: 135 Registered: 1-2008 |
Any kind of mechanism involved? Hydroelectric power plant involved? Propeller? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 435 Registered: 6-2003 |
Bolapeara: was he excercising in water that became too cold? no Is a machine that works by using cold water relevant to his death? no Were the mans hands severed? one or both? Legs? one or both? hole in chest? in stomach? nothing as brutal as this, thankfully Was the man anemic? any other health condition relevant to his death? was he using cold-water therapy techniques none of these no part of the water was frozen right? correct Adryghi: Did he cool the water himself? Did somebody else cool the water? this one Or he cooled the water together with somebody? Other people involved? yes Any kind of mechanism involved? yesish Hydroelectric power plant involved? Propeller? but neither of these | ||
| Adryghi (Adryghi)
New member Username: Adryghi Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2008 |
The other people involved.. one? two? >10? >100? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 439 Registered: 6-2003 |
The other people involved.. one? two? >10? >100? Directly, one. It could be argued that an infinitude of other people were involved indirectly, but that may lead to more confusion than is worth. | ||
| D_gordon (D_gordon)
New member Username: D_gordon Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is this a true story? Fictional? FYOI? If it's fictional, could it have happened in real life? Did the water kill him because it was quite hot, much hotter than his body, and therefore turned colder on contact with him? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 441 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is this a true story? Fictional? FYOI? this If it's fictional, could it have happened in real life? certainly could Did the water kill him because it was quite hot, much hotter than his body, and therefore turned colder on contact with him? not this | ||
| Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
New member Username: Arek_fu Post Number: 632 Registered: 12-2007 |
The other relevant person... is he/she HAM? (sticking to "she" for the rest of the questions) Did she cool the water? Thus killing John? On purpose? By using the "mechanism" mentioned above? Is the water a river? A lake? How much time passed between the moment John came in contact with the water and the moment he died? Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Not sure if this has been asked already: is John's cause of death... ...drowning? ...hypothermia? ...bleeding? ...other? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 442 Registered: 6-2003 |
The other relevant person... is he/she HAM? gender not relevant, but let's say yes to all (sticking to "she" for the rest of the questions) Did she cool the water? yes Thus killing John? yesish-yope On purpose? no By using the "mechanism" mentioned above? yes Is the water a river? A lake? neither of these How much time passed between the moment John came in contact with the water and the moment he died? Seconds? Minutes? possibly more seconds than minutes, but definitely within this sort of time-frame Hours? Days? Weeks? Not sure if this has been asked already: is John's cause of death... ...drowning? ...hypothermia? ...bleeding? this ...other? | ||
| Docd (Docd)
New member Username: Docd Post Number: 88 Registered: 12-2004 |
Was he in a natural body of water? Did John's death occur above ground? In close proximity to the other relevant person? The thing that caused John to lose blood. Was it: A single object? Floating in the cold water? Below the surface of the colder water? Not associated with the colder water? In contact with John before the water turned cold? An animal? A man-made object? Metal? Wooden? Rock? Other? Was John originally in the water: Accidentally? As part of his occupation? Recreationally? With anyone else in close proximity? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 443 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was he in a natural body of water? What do you mean by natural? Did John's death occur above ground? yes In close proximity to the other relevant person? no The thing that caused John to lose blood. Was it: A single object? yes Floating in the cold water? no Below the surface of the colder water? no Not associated with the colder water? not this either In contact with John before the water turned cold? yes An animal? A man-made object? Metal? Wooden? Rock? Other? out of this list, most likely to be metal... but in many cases will be an "other" Was John originally in the water: Accidentally? As part of his occupation? no to both of these Recreationally? this is closest: no-ish to no With anyone else in close proximity? no | ||
| Arek_fu (Arek_fu)
New member Username: Arek_fu Post Number: 663 Registered: 12-2007 |
Was he killed by something he was wearing? Relevant what part of his body was injured by the object? Was his death accidental? Was he taking a shower? Does the other involved person work for the water company, or something along those lines? Maybe he caused an accident that cooled the water (this would explain that a large number of people were involved indirectly) and John was unlucky enough to get killed because of the peculiar situation he was in? Am I one million miles from the right forest? | ||
| Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
New member Username: Howardwoman Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2008 |
If Arek fu is right and he was taking a shower, did the water suddenly turn cold? If this is correct, was it due to someone doing something such as flushing the toilet, or turning on another shower in the house? Did the water turning cold startle John, and maybe he hit his head on something? | ||
| Docd (Docd)
New member Username: Docd Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2004 |
(yes, Arek's idea about the shower sounds perfect) Shaving himself in the shower perhaps? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 444 Registered: 6-2003 |
Arek_fu: Was he killed by something he was wearing? no Relevant what part of his body was injured by the object? not really - just that it's something from which someone could bleed out within minutes. Let's say his skull. Was his death accidental? yes Was he taking a shower? YES, indeed he was! Does the other involved person work for the water company, or something along those lines? no Maybe he caused an accident that cooled the water (this would explain that a large number of people were involved indirectly indeed it would, but this isn't how they were involved) and John was unlucky enough to get killed because of the peculiar situation he was in? no Am I one million miles from the right forest? with the shower guess, you've landed yourself in the right region, certainly :-) Howardwoman: If Arek fu is right and he was taking a shower, did the water suddenly turn cold? yes If this is correct, was it due to someone doing something such as flushing the toilet, or turning on another shower in the house? yes - but neither of these specifically Did the water turning cold startle John, and maybe he hit his head on something? yes... Docd: Shaving himself in the shower perhaps? not this | ||
| Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
New member Username: Howardwoman Post Number: 290 Registered: 1-2008 |
Did he hit his head on the wall? The bar where the curtain is hung? The faucet? Nozzle? Soap dish? Did he slip and fall and hit his head on the wall? Floor? | ||
| Howardwoman (Howardwoman)
New member Username: Howardwoman Post Number: 291 Registered: 1-2008 |
Whoops, forget the second "wall" question. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 447 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did he hit his head on the wall? The bar where the curtain is hung? The faucet? Nozzle? Soap dish? Did he slip and fall and hit his head on the wall? Floor? It doesn't matter per se. It's probably easiest, though, to think of any relevant apparatus that has a protuding sharp/dull aspect - anything on which someone could easily, if unlucky / not careful, could split their head open upon. | ||
| Blazingphoenix (Blazingphoenix)
New member Username: Blazingphoenix Post Number: 303 Registered: 2-2007 |
Is it hard water? Hahaha...ha.....ha... Ahem, seriously now, was "she" flushing out the city hydrants? I know that makes our water crazy cold... | ||
| Booklover (Booklover)
New member Username: Booklover Post Number: 979 Registered: 4-2007 |
did the shower water itself turn cold, or was water added somehow? college prank, maybe? I know that in college it was "fun" to fill up a pitcher of cold water and pour it over the curtain. The cold water would make people yell! Maybe someone did this sort of prank, John yelled, jumped back, hit his head on something (say, soapdish) bled, and died. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 448 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is it hard water? Hahaha...ha.....ha... sadly not :-) Ahem, seriously now, was "she" flushing out the city hydrants? nothing as far out as this I know that makes our water crazy cold... did the shower water itself turn cold, this one or was water added somehow? college prank, maybe? I know that in college it was "fun" to fill up a pitcher of cold water and pour it over the curtain. The cold water would make people yell! Maybe someone did this sort of prank, John yelled, jumped back, hit his head on something (say, soapdish) bled, and died. The last answer unfortunately rules this guess out. | ||
| Booklover (Booklover)
New member Username: Booklover Post Number: 985 Registered: 4-2007 |
was a bill not paid, somehow? did the pilot light go out, so the water got cold? did someone turn down the water temperature on the water heater? did the water get cold because he had used up too much hot water? or, was someone else using hot water and it caused the hot water to turn cold? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 449 Registered: 6-2003 |
was a bill not paid, somehow? irr. did the pilot light go out, so the water got cold? what's a pilot light? did someone turn down the water temperature on the water heater? yes did the water get cold because he had used up too much hot water? or, was someone else using hot water and it caused the hot water to turn cold? neither of these - see above. | ||
| Booklover (Booklover)
New member Username: Booklover Post Number: 986 Registered: 4-2007 |
did the person who turned down the temperature on the water heater do it by accident or on purpose? was it done as a joke? was the person who turned down the temperature related to John? was the person an aquaintance of John? was it a plumber? did the person know John at all? was the person who turned down the temperature an adult? child? male? female? btw, the pilot light is under the water heater. it's the little flame that turns on and off to heat the water. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 450 Registered: 6-2003 |
did the person who turned down the temperature on the water heater do it by accident or on purpose? on purpose was it done as a joke? no was the person who turned down the temperature related to John? was the person an aquaintance of John? could be either really - let's say related was it a plumber? no did the person know John at all? yes was the person who turned down the temperature an adult? child? male? female? irr. btw, the pilot light is under the water heater. it's the little flame that turns on and off to heat the water. ah, I see | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 874 Registered: 5-2003 |
So we're talking about a murder? Was the water warm before it turned cold? Did John take some action that led to his death? Did he leave the shower? Try to leave the shower? Was he indoors at the time, or using an outdoor shower? Relevant? Is the location relevant? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 452 Registered: 6-2003 |
So we're talking about a murder? No. When I said that the hot water was turned off 'on purpose', I only meant that the other person intended to turn it off (as opposed to, say, flipping a switch without realising what it controls). I didn't mean to imply that the person purposely killed John. Sorry for any confusion. Was the water warm before it turned cold? yes Did John take some action that led to his death? yes Did he leave the shower? Try to leave the shower? neither of these Was he indoors at the time, or using an outdoor shower? indoors Relevant? somewhat, yes Is the location relevant? somewhat, yes | ||
| Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
New member Username: Jenburdoo Post Number: 877 Registered: 5-2003 |
LTPF list of countries, then. So the person who turned off the hot water was unaware that this would kill John? And therefore John's death was an accident? Could John's death be considered negligent homicide? Was he at home, visiting someone, or on vacation? Did he fall? Was he killed by a blow to some part of his body? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 453 Registered: 6-2003 |
LTPF list of countries, then. isn't any specific country, but is more likely to be in a Western country - America, Europe, etc. - and more likely to be in an English-speaking country than a non-English speaking country. It'd be more interesting, I think though, to investigate the other "somewhat" in that last post... So the person who turned off the hot water was unaware that this would kill John? slight FA And therefore John's death was an accident? yes Could John's death be considered negligent homicide? if a lawyer wanted to be picky and bend the definition of 'negligent' slightly, perhaps. But practically, no. Was he at home, visiting someone, or on vacation? Do you mean John, or the other person? Let's say they're both at home. Did he fall? yes Was he killed by a blow to some part of his body? by virtue of his falling onto something, yes | ||
| Sunshine (Sunshine)
New member Username: Sunshine Post Number: 801 Registered: 1-2001 |
Did he drop the soap and slip on it? Did he turn the shower off? Turn the control knobs? Open the curtain/door? Did he shout to the person who had turned the heat off? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 454 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did he drop the soap and slip on it? no Did he turn the shower off? no Turn the control knobs? no Open the curtain yesish/doorno? Did he shout to the person who had turned the heat off? possibly, yes | ||
| Eli (Eli)
New member Username: Eli Post Number: 1201 Registered: 11-2003 |
Is it relevant why the water temperature was turned down? Do we have to find out anything more about the other person? Is there some aspect of the indoor shower that is relevant for the puzzle? That 'somewhat' relevant thing about the location, is it; location of the shower/bathroom inside the house? location of other rooms in relation to where Jim is? location of the house itself? relevant whether he is in a house or appartment? relevant where the other person is compared to Jim? Do we have to find out more about the shower itself? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 455 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is it relevant why the water temperature was turned down? not really - simply because the other person didn't realise the shower (and thus the hot water) was being used. Do we have to find out anything more about the other person? noish Is there some aspect of the indoor shower that is relevant for the puzzle? yesish That 'somewhat' relevant thing about the location, is it; location of the shower/bathroom inside the house? no location of other rooms in relation to where Jim I assume you mean the person in the shower? is? no location of the house itself? yope relevant whether he is in a house or appartment? no relevant where the other person is compared to Jim? noish Do we have to find out more about the shower itself? only insofar as the relevant 'yesish' above implies | ||
| Yabblesmacker (Yabblesmacker)
New member Username: Yabblesmacker Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2009 |
Is John in a shower in his bathroom? Is the other person (can she be his sister Judith?) in the same house? In the same room? And she doesn't know John is taking a shower? If she had known he was in the shower, would she have done the thing she did? Is the earlier-mentioned mechanism the shower, or the thing that Judith does? If it is the thing that Judith does, is it something you would find in any normal house? Do people do this thing everyday? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 460 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is John in a shower in his bathroom? yes Is the other person (can she be his sister Judith? ok) in the same house? yes In the same room? no And she doesn't know John is taking a shower? correct If she had known he was in the shower, would she have done the thing she did? Do you mean, would she have turned the hot water off? No. Is the earlier-mentioned mechanism the shower, or the thing that Judith does? The thing that Judith does, insofar as we're talking about her turning the hot water off. If it is the thing that Judith does, is it something you would find in any normal house? Do people do this thing everyday? see above | ||
| Ezhonok (Ezhonok)
New member Username: Ezhonok Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2008 |
The object he hit his head against, is it something most people have in their homes? Is it a tool? A tool that cuts? Is it something we can find more easily in English-speaking countries than in other places? Is it made of steel? of glass? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 470 Registered: 6-2003 |
The object he hit his head against, is it something most people have in their homes? Is it a tool? A tool that cuts? Is it something we can find more easily in English-speaking countries than in other places? Is it made of steel? of glass? It can be anything in a shower that could cause blunt force trauma. The precise object itself isn't relevant. Seeing as I feel this is stumbling to a halt, I'll give a quick recap and drop a few hints in: John is in a shower. His sister, Judith, comes into the house and, not realising that he's using the shower, turns the hot water supply off - thus turning the water cold. This starts a series of events that leads to John's death, which happens when he slips in the shower and breaks his neck / cracks his skull open on a hard object / something similarly fatal. Judith at no point intends John to die. Hints: There is something about the shower, yet to be discovered, which is relevant. An earlier question/answer revealed that there are a lot of people who are involved indirectly; this hasn't been significantly followed up yet - doing so may be useful. | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 152 Registered: 2-2009 |
You said an infinitude of other people could be involved indirectly. Infinitude = all people who ever lived? all people who have lived since the creation of modern plumbing? since the creation of the shower? All people currently living at the time of John's death? Anyone who has ever flushed a toilet while someone was taking a shower? Do all the people indirectly involved have something in common? a physical feature? a mental feature? something involving their personalities? Did they all perform an action that indirectly influenced John's death? Did Judith shut the hot water off for any specific reason? to conserve the hot water itself? to conserve electricity needed to heat the water? to conserve money needed to pay for the heating of the water? because someone had told her to do so? because the entire community had to do so? Was the construction of the shower relevant? Was it a bathtub shower? a stall-type shower? handicap-accessible? one with a seat/bench built in? Does the shower have a door? Relevant? Does it have something to stop people from slipping on the floor? So something or several somethings relevant happened between the water turning cold and John hitting his head/neck/whatever? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 473 Registered: 6-2003 |
You said an infinitude of other people could be involved indirectly. Infinitude = all people who ever lived? all people who have lived since the creation of modern plumbing? since the creation of the shower? All people currently living at the time of John's death? Anyone who has ever flushed a toilet while someone was taking a shower? no thus far Do all the people indirectly involved have something in common? yesish a physical feature? a mental feature? something involving their personalities? "personalities" is closest, but still not really there Did they all perform an action that indirectly influenced John's death? yope Did Judith shut the hot water off for any specific reason? not really to conserve the hot water itself? this is enough...her motivation for shutting off the hot water isn't that relevant to the conclusion to conserve electricity needed to heat the water? to conserve money needed to pay for the heating of the water? because someone had told her to do so? because the entire community had to do so? Was the construction of the shower relevant? yes Was it a bathtub shower? yes a stall-type shower? no handicap-accessible? <b> one with a seat/bench built in? no Does the shower have a door? no Relevant? yesish Does it have something to stop people from slipping on the floor? no So something or several somethings relevant happened between the water turning cold and John hitting his head/neck/whatever? correct | ||
| Kalira (Kalira)
New member Username: Kalira Post Number: 161 Registered: 2-2009 |
Okay, so it was more than just the shock of having the water turn cold that caused John to slip and hit his head/neck? Did he attempt to turn up the hot water? turn down the cold? Did he try to reach for something? His towel? Washcloth or other bathing implement? The shower curtain? Did he try to call to the person who had turned off the hot water? Did he realize someone else had shut off the hot water (rather than it going out by itself)? Had the hot water ever gone out on him before? Did it go out on a semi-regular basis? Was he used to it going out? Did he think that there was someone he was not expecting in his house? Did he think there was an intruder? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 480 Registered: 6-2003 |
Okay, so it was more than just the shock of having the water turn cold that caused John to slip and hit his head/neck? correct Did he attempt to turn up the hot water? turn down the cold? irr. Did he try to reach for something? not 'try'... His towel? Washcloth or other bathing implement? neither of these The shower curtain? yes Did he try to call to the person who had turned off the hot water? Did he realize someone else had shut off the hot water (rather than it going out by itself)? yes Had the hot water ever gone out on him before? Did it go out on a semi-regular basis? irr. Was he used to it going out? probably not Did he think that there was someone he was not expecting in his house? not 'think'... Did he think there was an intruder? yopeish | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2009 |
Could the setting for the story be a single family home? Or is it some location that has multiple non-family members living together? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 482 Registered: 6-2003 |
Could the setting for the story be a single family home? sure Or is it some location that has multiple non-family members living together? could be this too | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 126 Registered: 3-2009 |
Is John able to care for himself? Does he have any handicaps or limitations? Medical condition? Is there special equipment in or around the shower? Are there elements in the shower and bathroom that are not found in most shower areas? Anything unusual about the setting of the story? Takes place in the present? In other words, does this story involve weirdness or unrealistic scenarios? When asked, "Did he think that there was someone he was not expecting in his house?", you answered "not 'think'... " -- does your answer mean that he knows someone he was not expecting was in his house. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 488 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is John able to care for himself? yes Does he have any handicaps or limitations? Medical condition? Is there special equipment in or around the shower? not particularly Are there elements in the shower and bathroom that are not found in most shower areas? Anything unusual about the setting of the story? Takes place in the present? yes In other words, does this story involve weirdness or unrealistic scenarios? perhaps a bit of dramatic license in how John dies from a single fall and bang to the head, and practically nothing else - but apart from that, everything's pretty much normal When asked, "Did he think that there was someone he was not expecting in his house?", you answered "not 'think'... " -- does your answer mean that he knows someone he was not expecting was in his house. yes - he wasn't expecting anyone to be home | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2009 |
Okay -- he's in the shower thinking he's along in the house, the water goes cold, which let's him know that someone actually is in the house, and then a sequence of events unfold that result in him hitting his head. Is this correct? Had he realized by some other mechanism than cold water (such as hearing a noise) that someone was in the house, could the events still have unfolded as they did? Was it necessary for him to have been taking a shower for this to have happened? What about the shower is important: - Slipperyness (caused by soap and a slick wet surface) - His nakedness - That he was wet - Water was pouring on him - His being chilled by the cold water - Some other aspect yet to be discovered Was he alone in the shower? Is electricity relevant? Was he not supposed to be there? Was he in a hurry to get out? After the water went cold, was his intention to immedately get out of the shower? Or do something else? Other than shower items like soap and washclothes, were there any items of importance in the shower? In the bathroom? Was his slip a fluke, or is there something about the setting that led him to slip? Is there any relevance to the puzzle title? If so, does the word "madness" relate to insanity? You had mentioned that other people were relevant -- did they have anything to do with the shower? Was the reason he was taking a shower important? Would his sister have been surprized to find him there? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 489 Registered: 6-2003 |
Okay -- he's in the shower thinking he's along in the house, the water goes cold, which let's him know that someone actually is in the house, and then a sequence of events unfold that result in him hitting his head. Is this correct? absolutely Had he realized by some other mechanism than cold water (such as hearing a noise) that someone was in the house, could the events still have unfolded as they did? yes Was it necessary for him to have been taking a shower for this to have happened? yes What about the shower is important: - Slipperyness (caused by soap and a slick wet surface) - His nakedness - That he was wet - Water was pouring on him - His being chilled by the cold water - Some other aspect yet to be discovered this one Was he alone in the shower? yes Is electricity relevant? no Was he not supposed to be there? incorrect Was he in a hurry to get out? no After the water went cold, was his intention to immedately get out of the shower? no Or do something else? yes Other than shower items like soap and washclothes, were there any items of importance in the shower? yesish In the bathroom? no Was his slip a fluke, or is there something about the setting that led him to slip? a fluke - the water/soap had made the bathtub slippery, is all Is there any relevance to the puzzle title? indirectly If so, does the word "madness" relate to insanity? in a similar indirect way, but would probably be misleading to follow this route You had mentioned that other people were relevant -- did they have anything to do with the shower? no, with a very small -ish Was the reason he was taking a shower important? no Would his sister have been surprized to find him there? no | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2009 |
Was he covered in soap or shampoo? Did he attempt to rinse off under the cold water? Did he have soap in his eyes? Was he engaging in normal showering activities? Would his behavior have been considered unusual? Unexpected? Was he shaving? Was he naked? Wet? Covered with soap? Standing? Sitting? Lying? | ||
| Indianforce (Indianforce)
New member Username: Indianforce Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2009 |
About the 'Some other aspect yet to be discovered' for the shower: Is it some shower panel fitting or a tap or knob that controls the shower? Is it the rod on which one hangs the towel? Is it a feature of the curtain? A feature of the tub? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 490 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was he covered in soap or shampoo? Did he attempt to rinse off under the cold water? Did he have soap in his eyes? no to these Was he engaging in normal showering activities? yes Would his behavior have been considered unusual? Unexpected? not until the cold water sequence started, no Was he shaving? no Was he naked? yes Wet? yes Covered with soap? perhaps Standing? yes Sitting? Lying? About the 'Some other aspect yet to be discovered' for the shower: Is it some shower panel fitting or a tap or knob that controls the shower? Is it the rod on which one hangs the towel? Is it a feature of the curtain? A feature of the tub? None of these - there's nothing specific about the shower, just the fact that it is one... | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2009 |
Going back to the beginning -- you said it could have happened in any country with one important criterion -- would that relate to: - form of government - whether it was a first world country ... - and had running water - politics - ethnicity - religion - legal system - health care system - location on the globe - military - environmental factors - some other criterion that would be helpful to know Didn't get an answer on these: Does he have any handicaps or limitations? Medical conditions? Are there elements in the shower and bathroom that are not found in most shower areas? Is his motivation for taking a shower important? If so, is it: - to get clean - to get warm - to get the benefit of moisture - to drink - to rinse away something besides normal body residue? - to steam up the bathroom - to get sleepy - to relieve pain - sexual reasons - to create the sound of the shower - to cause water to fill the tub - to relax - to think - to provide water for some other reason - to sing You gave a yesish for other items of relevance in the shower -- were there items of relevance in the bathroom but outside of the shower? Partially in the shower and outside of the shower? Did these items relate to water? Is the object fixed? Or can he move the item? Is it a camera? Recording device? Restraint? Walking stick? Communication device? Would most people have this item in a shower / bathroom with them? Was he in physical contact with it prior to the cold water? After the cold water? After the water went cold, did he attempt to perform some action prior to attempting to get out of the shower? Was it required to be performed prior to exiting? Had he not slipped, but had not successfully performed this action, what would have happened: - He could not get out of the shower - He could not turn off the cold water - He would be discovered - He would have missed fulfilling some obligation Are any of the following relevant: - Crime - Art - Mental health - Politics - Secrets You mention there are other people of relevance. Do they know John? Related to him? Have similar characteristics? If they were to take a shower, would they attempt to perform the same actions as John did? | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2009 |
Oops, clicked Post too early -- following up on what would have happened had he not slipped but failed to do whatever he was trying to do after the water went cold: - Would he have been harmed? Legally, physically, financially? - Would someone else been harmed? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 492 Registered: 6-2003 |
Going back to the beginning -- you said it could have happened in any country with one important criterion -- would that relate to: - form of government - whether it was a first world country ... yes... - and had running water only insofar as his taking a shower is vital for the plot - politics - ethnicity - religion - legal system - health care system - location on the globe - military - environmental factors none of these - some other criterion that would be helpful to know yes Didn't get an answer on these: Does he have any handicaps or limitations? Medical conditions? Are there elements in the shower and bathroom that are not found in most shower areas? no to these Is his motivation for taking a shower important? no If so, is it: - to get clean we can assume just this - to get warm - to get the benefit of moisture - to drink - to rinse away something besides normal body residue? - to steam up the bathroom - to get sleepy - to relieve pain - sexual reasons - to create the sound of the shower - to cause water to fill the tub - to relax - to think - to provide water for some other reason - to sing You gave a yesish for other items of relevance in the shower -- were there items of relevance in the bathroom but outside of the shower? Partially in the shower and outside of the shower? hard to answer - what do you define as being "out of the shower" and "in the shower"? Did these items relate to water? only very indirectly Is the object I assume you mean this yesish item mentioned previously? fixed? Or can he move the item? yes to this Is it a camera? Recording device? Restraint? Walking stick? Communication device? None of the rest Would most people have this item in a shower / bathroom with them? not sure about "most", but it is a very common item Was he in physical contact with it prior to the cold water? probably not After the cold water? definitely After the water went cold, did he attempt to perform some action prior to attempting to get out of the shower? yes Was it required to be performed prior to exiting? technically, yes, but could be misleading Had he not slipped, but had not successfully performed this action, what would have happened: - He could not get out of the shower yes - He could not turn off the cold water no - He would be discovered irr. - He would have missed fulfilling some obligation no Are any of the following relevant: - Crime - Art - Mental health - Politics - Secrets no to all You mention there are other people of relevance. Do they know John? Related to him? Have similar characteristics? no to these If they were to take a shower, would they attempt to perform the same actions as John did? maybe Oops, clicked Post too early -- following up on what would have happened had he not slipped but failed to do whatever he was trying to do after the water went cold: - Would he have been harmed? Legally, physically, financially? - Would someone else been harmed? no to both these questions | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2009 |
Was the object clothing? Related to grooming? Related to his physical appearance? Related to drying? Staying warm? Was the object a towel? A bathrobe? A toupee? Had he not been able to perform his intended action, he would not have been able to get out of the shower. Would he have been physically constrained? Or would he have been violating a social convention or custom? I will define "out of the shower" and "in the shower" as pertaining to the shower enclosure, so a towel draped over the curtain rod would be partially in and out of the shower. So would the item be: 1. Located completely inside the shower enclosure? 2. Located completely outside the shower enclosure? 3. Located both inside and outside the shower enclosure? Is there more than one item? Is it solid, liquid, gas, or combination? Regarding the distintive criterion of the country -- does it relate to customs? Customs that pertain to showering activities? Nudity? Water? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 494 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was the object clothing? Related to grooming? Related to his physical appearance? Related to drying? yope-ish Staying warm? none to the rest Was the object a towel? A bathrobe? A toupee? none of these Had he not been able to perform his intended action, he would not have been able to get out of the shower. Would he have been physically constrained? yes Or would he have been violating a social convention or custom? no I will define "out of the shower" and "in the shower" as pertaining to the shower enclosure, so a towel draped over the curtain rod would be partially in and out of the shower. OK So would the item be: 1. Located completely inside the shower enclosure? 2. Located completely outside the shower enclosure? 3. Located both inside and outside the shower enclosure? this one Is there more than one item? no Is it solid, liquid, gas, or combination? it is solid Regarding the distintive criterion of the country -- does it relate to customs? Customs that pertain to showering activities? Nudity? Water? none of these...it's less to do with showers themselves, than with something else... | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2009 |
Was it the act of opening the shower door? Related to the door? Or the shower curtain? Did the cold water add urgency to the situation such that he was trying to get out in a hurry and it led to him slipping? Did the door jam? The rest of the questions are assuming it's not a door. It's solid, moveable, and located inside and outside the shower. Is it located at foot level, waist level, eye level, or overhead? Is it completely detacheable? Does it have moving parts? Is it flexible? Or rigid? Is it specifically used in showers and bathrooms? As to the distinctive criterion of the country -- does it relate to items in a bathroom? Bidets? Certain kinds of toilets? Water preservation? Is there a narrative of this story that goes outside of the shower and bathroom? Is the event highly improbable? For example, he is in a country in the southern hemisphere so the water rotates the opposite direction from what he expects making him dizzy and he falls -- anything this farfetched? Or is the sequence of events fairly straightforward? Are there any general aspects of the story we have not even touched on yet? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 496 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was it the act of opening the shower door? Related to the door? FA, see next answer Or the shower curtain? yes Did the cold water add urgency to the situation such that he was trying to get out in a hurry and it led to him slipping? yes Did the door jam? FA The rest of the questions are assuming it's not a door. It's solid, moveable, and located inside and outside the shower. Is it located at foot level, waist level, eye level, or overhead? Is it completely detacheable? Does it have moving parts? Is it flexible? Or rigid? Is it specifically used in showers and bathrooms? It is the shower curtain, as touched on earlier in your set of questions As to the distinctive criterion of the country -- does it relate to items in a bathroom? Bidets? Certain kinds of toilets? Water preservation? none of these either... Is there a narrative of this story that goes outside of the shower and bathroom? yes Is the event highly improbable? only insofar as "one slip in the shower leads to fatal accident" might be improbable in real life For example, he is in a country in the southern hemisphere so the water rotates the opposite direction from what he expects making him dizzy and he falls -- anything this farfetched? nothing like this Or is the sequence of events fairly straightforward? pretty much Are there any general aspects of the story we have not even touched on yet? sort of - the narrative outside of the bathroom that you mentioned earlier | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 201 Registered: 3-2009 |
The outside narrative -- does it involve a single event? A series of repeated events? A sequence of dissimilar events? If I were to put this entire story on a timeline extending into the past, how far back would it go - 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 5 years, all his adult life (was he an adult), all his life? Does the story have any relation to showers? Taking away the outside narrative, had the water gone cold, would he have fallen? The shower curtain -- is it accurate to say that his slip and fall was directly related to his effort to open the shower curtain? Is there something unusual about the curtain? About how it was secured? About what actions he had to perform to open it? Had there been no curtain, would he have fallen? Were his hands occupied? Was he in an awkward position? Beside trying to get out of the shower in a hurry, was there anything else that contributed to his slip, or is that it? Was there some reason that he needed to get out really fast? Had he known it was just his sister in the house, would anything have changed? If it someone besides her, would anything have changed? Had he known that there was someone in the house when he started his shower, would things have unfolded differently? Would he have taken a shower if anyone else was there? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 497 Registered: 6-2003 |
The outside narrative -- does it involve a single event? probably more correct to say it's this A series of repeated events? A sequence of dissimilar events? If I were to put this entire story on a timeline extending into the past, how far back would it go - 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 5 years, all his adult life (was he an adult), all his life? If we're being strict, it's nearly 50 years. But being less strict, it's an indeterminate timescale - for the sake of the puzzle, let's say a few months. Does the story have any relation to showers? yes Taking away the outside narrative, had the water gone cold, would he have fallen? no The shower curtain -- is it accurate to say that his slip and fall was directly related to his effort to open the shower curtain? Directly related in the sense that he slipped and fell in trying to open the curtain, yes. But there's nothing about the shower curtain itself that made him more likely to slip/fall when he reached for it. Is there something unusual about the curtain? About how it was secured? About what actions he had to perform to open it? so no to these Had there been no curtain, would he have fallen? probably not... Were his hands occupied? no Was he in an awkward position? no Beside trying to get out of the shower in a hurry, was there anything else that contributed to his slip, or is that it? that's it: hurry + wet/soapy floor = slip Was there some reason that he needed to get out really fast? yes Had he known it was just his sister in the house, would anything have changed? probably not If it someone besides her, would anything have changed? probably not Had he known that there was someone in the house when he started his shower, would things have unfolded differently? possibly Would he have taken a shower if anyone else was there? might still have done | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 207 Registered: 3-2009 |
Let me confirm what I think I know so far: 1. The fact that someone was in the house, not the temperature of the water, is what made him hurry to get out. 2. The configuration of the shower, bathroom, and items within it is irrelevent -- all we need to know about the shower is that he was in a hurry to get out and fell attempting to do so. 3. The unusual sequence of events that occurred between the time the water went cold and his fall was just the hurried scramble he went through to get out, nothing else. 4. The curtain is only relevant that he needed to open it to get out. If the shower had a sliding door, the story would have worked the same. Is all this correct? If not, what is incorrect? Just to continue to beat the horse -- had he just gotten in the shower for 10 seconds and became aware that someone came home, would he still have scrambled to get out? New questions: Is there some reason he is not supposed to be in the shower? Is the problem was that he was in the shower? Or that he was not somewhere else? His likely mental state when he discovers someone is home -- anxiety? happiness? calm? anger? sadness? Which of these is closest? Had he been taking a bath, would he have needed to hurry to get out? Is the steam of the shower relevant? The sound of the shower? Is social class relevant? Was he a servant? Master? | ||
| Stephanleclercq (Stephanleclercq)
New member Username: Stephanleclercq Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2009 |
Did he need to exit the shower to tell something to his sister ("dont sit on that chair, wet paint") or to hide something from her (he was preparing a birthday present) ? Assuming the "outside narrative" is some activity he was doing, did he need to take a shower because of that activity (he had paint all over his hair) or could the activity simply proceed without supervision, leaving him time to shower while waiting for the activity to finish (recording a tv show)? Did the activity need secrecy (preparing a surprise) ? Was it dangerous for unsuspecting people (fumigating a room to kill pests) ? Did the activity need running hot water (thawing something) ? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 498 Registered: 6-2003 |
Let me confirm what I think I know so far: 1. The fact that someone was in the house, not the temperature of the water, is what made him hurry to get out. correct 2. The configuration of the shower, bathroom, and items within it is irrelevent -- all we need to know about the shower is that he was in a hurry to get out and fell attempting to do so. almost correct - see answer for 4. 3. The unusual sequence of events that occurred between the time the water went cold and his fall was just the hurried scramble he went through to get out, nothing else. correct 4. The curtain is only relevant that he needed to open it to get out. If the shower had a sliding door, the story would have worked the same. incorrect (sorry if I said otherwise, that would be a blooper on my part) Is all this correct? If not, what is incorrect? see above Just to continue to beat the horse -- had he just gotten in the shower for 10 seconds and became aware that someone came home, would he still have scrambled to get out? he wouldn't have scrambled to get out, but he would've reacted very similarly, yes New questions: Is there some reason he is not supposed to be in the shower? no Is the problem was that he was in the shower? Or that he was not somewhere else? neither of these - the former is strictly the closest, but would probably be misleading His likely mental state when he discovers someone is home -- anxiety? happiness? calm? anger? sadness? Which of these is closest? anxiety is perfect Had he been taking a bath, would he have needed to hurry to get out? no Is the steam of the shower relevant? The sound of the shower? neither of these Is social class relevant? Was he a servant? no to both Did he need to exit the shower to tell something to his sister ("dont sit on that chair, wet paint") no or to hide something from her (he was preparing a birthday present)? nor this Assuming the "outside narrative" is some activity he was doing an activity forms a vital part of the narrative, yes, but isn't the entirety of it, did he need to take a shower because of that activity (he had paint all over his hair) or could the activity simply proceed without supervision, leaving him time to shower while waiting for the activity to finish (recording a tv show)? neither of these... Did the activity need secrecy (preparing a surprise) ? Was it dangerous for unsuspecting people (fumigating a room to kill pests) ? Did the activity need running hot water (thawing something) ? none of these either, unfortunately... | ||
| Bolapara (Bolapara)
New member Username: Bolapara Post Number: 794 Registered: 12-2008 |
Was he trying to reach a weapon/phone/camera? because he thought someone was vandalizing the house? | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 214 Registered: 3-2009 |
Back to the curtain then. Does it relate to the outside narrative? Is the salient point about the curtain that it relates to the narrative? Or that there is something unusual about it? Can we assume the curtain is a typical plastic shower curtain? That can be easily opened by sweeping it back with an arm? Are there any additional items attached to the curtain? Is the curtain modified in any way? Is it used for purposes other than preventing water from splashing out of the shower enclosure during normal showering activities? During the shower, was it drawn as expected? After the shower concluded, did he attempt to draw it back to exit? Was there some reason why he could not draw it back? Other than opening and closing the curtain, did he do anything else with the curtain? If he did not open the curtain, could he just step out of the tube, pushing the curtain out of the way? The shower -- does it relate to the outside narrative? There is some reason why it has to be a shower and not a bath, correct? Does it have to do with running water? Water falling from near head height? Water spraying with pressure? Water flowing through an open drain? Water spraying in a certain direction? Standing while bathing? No pooling of water? Ability to change temperature easily? Ability to stop bathing and have the evidence of bathing be gone quickly? No bathtub ring left? No bathtub filling time required? Uses less water than a bath? No drain plug required? Ability to start and stop water quickly? Does the outside narrative take place exclusively inside the house? Inside the bathroom? Inside the shower enclosure? Is his anxiety rational? Does it relate to fear of discovery? Fear of danger to self? Fear of danger to others? Fear of pain? Fear of loss? Fear of embarrassment? Fear of schedule constraints? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 499 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was he trying to reach a weapon/phone/camera? because he thought someone was vandalizing the house? no to both Back to the curtain then. Does it relate to the outside narrative? partially, yes Is the salient point about the curtain that it relates to the narrative? partially, yes Or that there is something unusual about it? not 'unusual', but there is something else that might help if found out Can we assume the curtain is a typical plastic shower curtain? yes That can be easily opened by sweeping it back with an arm? yes Are there any additional items attached to the curtain? no Is the curtain modified in any way? no Is it used for purposes other than preventing water from splashing out of the shower enclosure during normal showering activities? no During the shower, was it drawn as expected? yes After the shower concluded, did he attempt to draw it back to exit? yes Was there some reason why he could not draw it back? no Other than opening and closing the curtain, did he do anything else with the curtain? no If he did not open the curtain, could he just step out of the tube, pushing the curtain out of the way? yes The shower -- does it relate to the outside narrative? yes There is some reason why it has to be a shower and not a bath, correct? correct Does it have to do with running water? Water falling from near head height? Water spraying with pressure? Water flowing through an open drain? Water spraying in a certain direction? Standing while bathing? No pooling of water? Ability to change temperature easily? Ability to stop bathing and have the evidence of bathing be gone quickly? No bathtub ring left? No bathtub filling time required? Uses less water than a bath? No drain plug required? Ability to start and stop water quickly? none of these, and nothing as detailed as this either Does the outside narrative take place exclusively inside the house? strictly, no - but mostly yes Inside the bathroom? Inside the shower enclosure? neither of these Is his anxiety rational? no Does it relate to fear of discovery? Fear of danger to self? this Fear of danger to others? Fear of pain? this also, insofar as it relates to the fear of danger Fear of loss? Fear of embarrassment? Fear of schedule constraints? none of the rest | ||
| Stephanleclercq (Stephanleclercq)
New member Username: Stephanleclercq Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2009 |
Did he experience a psychological trauma in the past, related to the shower? As a kid? Had a stranger entered the house? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 503 Registered: 6-2003 |
Did he experience a psychological trauma in the past, related to the shower? yes As a kid? probably not - let's say as an adult Had a stranger entered the house? no | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 222 Registered: 3-2009 |
Strictly no but mostly yes to the narrative taking place exclusively inside the house -- did it take place inside another house? Is the transparency of the curtain relevant? It the thing that would be helpful to find out about the curtain visually apparent to the eye? Does it have to do with its appearance? Some physical characteristic about it? Or its relationship with the trauma? Was the curtain the same curtain that was present during the trauma? Did the narrative involve another person? If so, did he develope a general aversion to showering when others are present? Did the trauma occur once as a single incident? Or was it a series of incidents? Did it involve physical pain? Psychological pain? If physical pain, was it caused by water? Another person? The curtain? Did the trauma directly involve the shower, or did it just happen that he was in the shower at the time of the trauma and now associates it with the shower? For example, it he was taking a shower when an earthquake hit, he might be afraid of showers afterwards, but it really has nothing to do with showers. Assuming the trauma directly involved showers, had he been scalded? Was he attacked in the shower? Was he a burn victim who was forced to undergo painful showers to cleanse his wounds? Was it primarily a physical event? Or an event that involved his thoughts and emotions? Was his situation at the time of the trauma different that his present situation, e.g., he was in prison and now he's out? Did the trauma involve a person, a curtain, and a shower? Were the circumstances at the time of the trauma materially the same as the circumstances he found himself in when the water went cold? Regarding the aspect of the country that is important to know -- does it relate to the person, the curtain, or the shower? Beside the person, curtain, and shower, are there other physical items of relevance to the trauma? Is his anxiety strictly limited to his association with the past trauma? Does he have any other psychological issues? Prior to the trauma, did he have psychological issues? Did the trauma involve a death? Assuming another person was involved in the trauma, who was more directly harmed at that time -- our hero or the other person? Was it physical harm? Is the narrative fairly simple, involving one or two items and events? Or is it fairly elaborate with a number of items and events? Does the narrative directly involve the aspect of the country that would be helpful to know about? Or is it more like to have occured in such a country? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 504 Registered: 6-2003 |
Strictly no but mostly yes to the narrative taking place exclusively inside the house -- did it take place inside another house? no Is the transparency of the curtain relevant? FA It the thing that would be helpful to find out about the curtain visually apparent to the eye? have just realised there's two things (sorry) - the answer thus is respectively yes and no Does it have to do with its appearance? Some physical characteristic about it? yes/no respectively Or its relationship with the trauma? no/yes Was the curtain the same curtain that was present during the trauma? no Did the narrative involve another person? yes If so, did he develope a general aversion to showering when others are present? noish Did the trauma occur once as a single incident? yes Or was it a series of incidents? Did it involve physical pain? Psychological pain? this one If physical pain, was it caused by water? Another person? The curtain? Did the trauma directly involve the shower yes, or did it just happen that he was in the shower at the time of the trauma and now associates it with the shower? For example, it he was taking a shower when an earthquake hit, he might be afraid of showers afterwards, but it really has nothing to do with showers. Assuming the trauma directly involved showers, had he been scalded? Was he attacked in the shower? Was he a burn victim who was forced to undergo painful showers to cleanse his wounds? no to these Was it primarily a physical event? no Or an event that involved his thoughts and emotions? yes Was his situation at the time of the trauma different that his present situation, e.g., he was in prison and now he's out? no Did the trauma involve a person, a curtain, and a shower? yes Were the circumstances at the time of the trauma materially the same as the circumstances he found himself in when the water went cold? yes Regarding the aspect of the country that is important to know -- does it relate to the person, the curtain, or the shower? no Beside the person, curtain, and shower, are there other physical items of relevance to the trauma? yes Is his anxiety strictly limited to his association with the past trauma? yes Does he have any other psychological issues? Prior to the trauma, did he have psychological issues? no to both Did the trauma involve a death? yes Assuming another person was involved in the trauma, who was more directly harmed at that time -- our hero or the other person? the other person Was it physical harm? yes - death, as above Is the narrative fairly simple, involving one or two items and events? yes Or is it fairly elaborate with a number of items and events? Does the narrative directly involve the aspect of the country that would be helpful to know about? no Or is it more like to have occured in such a country? yope | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 232 Registered: 3-2009 |
Is the transparency of the curtain relevant -- FA because the curtain is not transparent? Was a shower curtain used to wrap a body? To contain blood? Was emotional pain due to witnessing a death? Besides the person who died, is there another person(s) involved in the trauma? Was the shower directly involved with the death? Did the death occur in a shower enclosure? During the previous trauma, was it our hero who was in the shower, or the person who died? There are other physical items of relevance to the trauma -- how many? 1,2,3,4,5+? Is that physical item present when the water goes cold? Is the item a murder weapon? Was our hero directly involved in the death? Or was he merely a bystander? Cause of death -- is there a LTPF list of causes of death? If so -- insert here -- if not, I'll construct one. | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 505 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the transparency of the curtain relevant -- FA because the curtain is not transparent? correct Was a shower curtain used to wrap a body? To contain blood? not sure, but irrelevant anyway Was emotional pain due to witnessing a death? yesish Besides the person who died, is there another person(s) involved in the trauma? no Was the shower directly involved with the death? Did the death occur in a shower enclosure? yes During the previous trauma, was it our hero who was in the shower, or the person who died? the latter person, but slight FA due to a BLOOPER:instead of answering "Was it physical harm?" with 'yes - death, as above', 'yope - see above' would have been more accurate Sorry for that.</b> There are other physical items of relevance you mean, other than John's shower? to the trauma -- how many? 1,2,3,4,5+? difficult to numerate exactly, but for simpicity's sake let's say just 1 Is that physical item present when the water goes cold? Is the item a murder weapon? no to both Was our hero directly involved in the death? no Or was he merely a bystander? nor this Cause of death -- is there a LTPF list of causes of death? If so -- insert here -- if not, I'll construct one. I'll ask you to construct one, if that's not too much of a probem :-) | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 233 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yesish to the emotional pain due to witnessing a death -- is this not "yes" because John did not actually see the death occur? Is part of the narrative that someone else died while taking a shower? John was traumatized as a result? Relationship between person who died and John relevant? Was he a loved one? If so, is this the full extent of the relationship, I do I need to know more? Did John hurry to get out of the shower because he did not want to suffer a similar fate as the person who died? Or was he doing it out of consideration of the person entering the house? Anything like this? Does the narrative include someone entering a house and finding the other person dead in the shower? Anything like this? The other object -- was it involved in the previous death? If so, was it a direct cause of the death? Is the object present in John's current situation? Is it in the house, bathroom, shower enclosure? Does this story involve medical factors (aside from untimely death)? Foul play? Cause of death (from Wikipedia, with some additions by YT) -impact -electric shock -the other kind of shock -something piercing them -suffocation or asphyxiation -burning -freezing -heart attack -allergies -drowning -explosion -radiation -poison -a psionic death ray -laughing to death -asphyxiation -bleeding -organ failure -other | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 234 Registered: 3-2009 |
The causes of death in my previous post refers to the other person who died. Is it necessary for the curtain not to be transparent? Does the narrative include someone walking into a bathroom undetected? Surprizing the person showering? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 506 Registered: 6-2003 |
Yesish to the emotional pain due to witnessing a death -- is this not "yes" because John did not actually see the death occur? incorrect Is part of the narrative that someone else died while taking a shower? yes, with same potential FA John was traumatized as a result? yes Relationship between person who died and John relevant? no Was he a loved one? If so, is this the full extent of the relationship, I do I need to know more? Did John hurry to get out of the shower because he did not want to suffer a similar fate as the person who died? yes Or was he doing it out of consideration of the person entering the house? Anything like this? Does the narrative include someone entering a house and finding the other person dead in the shower? no Anything like this? not quite... The other object -- was it involved in the previous death? no If so, was it a direct cause of the death? Is the object present in John's current situation? what do you mean by "current situation"? Is this question answered by the following answer...? Is it in the house, bathroom, shower enclosure? the house, but not either of the other options Does this story involve medical factors (aside from untimely death)? no Foul play? yes Cause of death (from Wikipedia, with some additions by YT) -impact -electric shock -the other kind of shock -something piercing them this one -suffocation or asphyxiation -burning -freezing -heart attack -allergies -drowning -explosion -radiation -poison -a psionic death ray -laughing to death -asphyxiation -bleeding -organ failure -other Is it necessary for the curtain not to be transparent? yes Does the narrative include someone walking into a bathroom undetected? Surprizing the person showering? yes to both of these | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 236 Registered: 3-2009 |
Is the movie Psycho relevant? The shower scene? If not, does the narrative involve a murder? That was committed in a similar manner? Is the other object a knife? Some kind of stabbing instrument? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 507 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the movie Psycho relevant? The shower scene? YES to both! If not, does the narrative involve a murder? That was committed in a similar manner? Is the other object a knife? Some kind of stabbing instrument? no to both | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2009 |
Was he traumatized by watching Psycho? And now anytime he is aware of someone in the house when he is showering, he suffers from anxiety? Do we need to know more about the movie other than there is a scene where someone is murdered in the shower? Seems like I recall that prior to the murder, the shower curtain was cut -- is this relevant? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 509 Registered: 6-2003 |
Was he traumatized by watching Psycho? yes And now anytime he is aware of someone in the house when he is showering, he suffers from anxiety? yes Do we need to know more about the movie other than there is a scene where someone is murdered in the shower? not really Seems like I recall that prior to the murder, the shower curtain was cut -- is this relevant? I think you've pretty much got it now - could you put it together, see if there's the whole storyline there? :-) | ||
| Davesnothere (Davesnothere)
New member Username: Davesnothere Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2009 |
He was traumatized by watching Psycho and would be filled with anxiety when he found himself bathing in a manner that was reminiscent of the shower scene: empty house, standing shower, and non-transparent curtain. When the water went cold (if this is an element of the movie, I don’t remember it), he knew somebody was in the house, which reminded him of the attacker in the movie, had a panic attack, scrambled to get out of the shower, slipped and fell? All the other people who were indirectly involved with the narrative were the people who wrote, produced, and watched the movie? The distinctive thing about the country is that it had to be a country that had movie theatres and would have shown the movie Psycho (this feels like a stretch)? Still missing the action that he performed prior to getting out of the shower that, not performed, would have phyiscally constrained him from leaving the shower -- would this be to turn off the water, and draw the curtain? Don a towel or robe? | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 511 Registered: 6-2003 |
He was traumatized by watching Psycho and would be filled with anxiety when he found himself bathing in a manner that was reminiscent of the shower scene: empty house, standing shower, and non-transparent curtain. When the water went cold (if this is an element of the movie, I don’t remember it it isn't), he knew somebody was in the house, which reminded him of the attacker in the movie, had a panic attack, scrambled to get out of the shower, slipped and fell? exactly! *** SPOILER *** All the other people who were indirectly involved with the narrative were the people who wrote, produced, and watched the movie? absolutely The distinctive thing about the country is that it had to be a country that had movie theatres and would have shown the movie Psycho (this feels like a stretch)? maybe...that was I had in mind, though Still missing the action that he performed prior to getting out of the shower that, not performed, would have phyiscally constrained him from leaving the shower -- would this be to turn off the water, and draw the curtain? Don a towel or robe? hmmm... I seem to remember that being drawing the curtain - but now realise that I might have contradicted that later on. Sorry! Thankfully, it didn't seem to stop you from getting it... well done! :-) | ||
| Logician (Logician)
New member Username: Logician Post Number: 512 Registered: 6-2003 |
And just to tie up all the loose ends, the title: What kind of madness is this, relates to the film title 'Psycho' that was integral to the puzzle. Psycho -> Psychotic -> Madness -> The '300' quote which was picked up on early on. Have come up with a new puzzle - I'm sure you know where to find it :-) |
