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Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 587
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 3:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"After you, Claude."

"No, no - after you, Cecil."

"Ah yes, quite so - but last week, I would have been right."

Explain this somewhat curious conversation.
Doctapeppa (Doctapeppa)
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Post Number: 2312
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 3:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar Wilde play?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Post Number: 132
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the phrase "age before beauty" relevant here? Anything to do with birthdays? or age? Is there any relevance in the fact that these names are relatively close alphabetically?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 589
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 4:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oscar Wilde play? no, but not all that bad a shot - there is a character named Cecil Graham in Lady Windermere's Fan, but as far as I know Wilde never created a character by the name of Claude.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 590
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 5:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the phrase "age before beauty" relevant here? no Anything to do with birthdays? no or age? no, with the very faintest trace of ish Is there any relevance in the fact that these names are relatively close alphabetically? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1882
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Claude & Cecil H? A? M?

Are they real people or fictional? Are the protagonists actually being polite to each other in the first two sentences or is there some point scoring going on? Are they friends? Are they enemies? Colleagues? Relatives? Are they walking though a door or an entrance or something similar? Is the last line uttered by Claude? Cecil? someone else?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 591
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Claude & Cecil H? A? M? all three

Are they real people or fictional? this one, but they do not appear in any particular piece of fiction apart from this puzzle Are the protagonists actually being polite to each other in the first two sentences or is there some point scoring going on? both Are they friends? yes Are they enemies? no Colleagues? no Relatives? no Are they walking though a door or an entrance or something similar? no Is the last line uttered by Claude? Cecil? someone else? by Cecil - only two people are involved in the conversation
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1883
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they playing a game of some sort?

Are their occupations relevant? Do their names have some relevance or did you just pick them at random?
Ezhonok (Ezhonok)
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Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they just friends or more than that? Working partners? Is this relevant? Is any past episode relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 592
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they playing a game of some sort? no

Are their occupations relevant? no, but... Do their names have some relevance or did you just pick them at random? it's that question again...
Liquizt (Liquizt)
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Post Number: 678
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 2:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You've missed Ezhonok's questions.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 593
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they just friends this one or more than that? Working partners? no, but... Is this relevant? not really Is any past episode relevant? very much so
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1887
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they performers of any sort? A double act? Do they share a relevant common interest or hobby?

Is Cecil correct in his assertion that "Last week he would have been right?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 594
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they performers of any sort? no A double act? no Do they share a relevant common interest yes or hobby? no

Is Cecil correct in his assertion that "Last week he would have been right? yes
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 481
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the puzzle set in the present? (that is, last week = the week April 6-12, 2009)
Would "Claude before Cecil" be right only for last week? or also for the weeks before?
Is there an exact date where "Claude before Cecil" changes to "Cecil before Claude"? if so, was it last Sunday? last Monday?
Was the change related to some event? to some event we might have heard of in the news?
Easter relevant?
Sports relevant?
Does the "after you" relate to entering a room or building? leaving a room or building? appearing in some place? some activity only one person can do at a time? (like drinking from the same cup)
does it refer to some score or competition?
The Boat Race relevant? (but as far as I know Cambridge is still leading in the total score)
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 595
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the puzzle set in the present? (that is, last week = the week April 6-12, 2009) yesish - the events of the puzzle could take place only in the week immediately after Easter, but not necessarily Easter 2009
Would "Claude before Cecil" be right only for last week? no or also for the weeks before? yope
Is there an exact date where "Claude before Cecil" changes to "Cecil before Claude"? yesish if so, was it last Sunday? last Monday? the change takes place on Easter Monday of each year
Was the change related to some event? yes to some event we might have heard of in the news? most unlikely
Easter relevant? see above
Sports relevant? no
Does the "after you" relate to entering a room or building? leaving a room or building? appearing in some place? this one some activity only one person can do at a time? (like drinking from the same cup) no
does it refer to some score or competition? no
The Boat Race relevant? (but as far as I know Cambridge is still leading in the total score) the Boat Race is not relevant, but Cambridge are indeed still leading in the total score, as one would expect
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1890
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the fact that Easter is a moveable feast? Does the fact that Easter Sunday marks the end of the lenten period relevant? Has this anythign to do with time? clocks? calendars? moons?

Are any aspects or observances of any particular religeon relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 596
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the fact that Easter is a moveable feast? yes, it is a fact that Easter is a movable feast, but this is not particularly relevant Does the fact that Easter Sunday marks the end of the lenten period relevant? no Has this anythign to do with time? clocks? calendars? moons? with none of those as such

Are any aspects or observances of any particular religeon relevant? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1891
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Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are many Easter superstitions, for instance when i was a child my mother would never let us go fishing on Good Friday. Any superstitions relevant to this puzzle?

For some reason I'm picturing Claude & Cecil as Noel Coward types with smoking jackets and large sifers of brandy. Does their dress or appearance have any relevance?

Are they memebers of a society (secret or otherwise) or a club of some sort? Is the time of day this conversation takes place relevant? Would it only work in the morning ? afternoon? evening? night?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Any customs, rites, games, plays, .. observed/done at Easter relevant? (even silly ones?)
Is the puzzle set in a particular country? if so: would it work in other countries? in countries where the majority is Christian? in countries where Easter Monday is a public holiday?
Do Cecil and Claude perform an activity together? An activity that could be seen by others? Are more people involved in this activity?
If they're appearing in some place (as said above) .. is it a public place? a building? a tv or radio show?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 598
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are many Easter superstitions, for instance when i was a child my mother would never let us go fishing on Good Friday. Any superstitions relevant to this puzzle? no

For some reason I'm picturing Claude & Cecil as Noel Coward types with smoking jackets and large sifers of brandy. Does their dress or appearance have any relevance? no

Are they memebers of a society (secret or otherwise) or a club of some sort? yope Is the time of day this conversation takes place relevant? no Would it only work in the morning ? afternoon? evening? night? it would work at any time of the day or night

Any customs, rites, games, plays, .. observed/done at Easter relevant? (even silly ones?) only one
Is the puzzle set in a particular country? yes if so: would it work in other countries? no in countries where the majority is Christian? this would not matter in countries where Easter Monday is a public holiday? and neither would this
Do Cecil and Claude perform an activity together? yope An activity that could be seen by others? yes Are more people involved in this activity? yes
If they're appearing in some place (as said above) .. is it a public place? a building? this one a tv or radio show?
Bolapara (Bolapara)
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Post Number: 639
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Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 1:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the building a church? a house? a business? a school? a place of worship?

Is the event engaged in by these two men something that its reasonable to expect most all of would know about?

Is this something that would only work with catholics? is opposed to Methodist or Lutherans?

Are both Claude and Cecil of the same religion? And if so the same denomination of that religion?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 599
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Posted on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the building a church? a house? a business? a school? a place of worship? it is none of those, but "business" is closest (though not very close)

Is the event engaged in by these two men something that its reasonable to expect most all of would know about? certainly you would know of the activity if described in general terms, but the particular way in which Claude and Cecil go about engaging in the activity is not widely known

Is this something that would only work with catholics? is opposed to Methodist or Lutherans? it would work with people of any religion, or none

Are both Claude and Cecil of the same religion? irrelevant And if so the same denomination of that religion? equally irrelevant
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1892
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Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they in a library by any chance? Is alphabetical order relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 600
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Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they in a library by any chance? no Is alphabetical order relevant? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1893
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Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, any sort of public or government building?

Do they do this activity for their own benefit? enjoyment? health? do they earn income from doing it? Does it cost money to do this activity?

Does doing it in their own way increase any benefit of the activity?

Does this activity benefit others? entertain them? does it, or could it offend or annoy anyone?

Does anyone see or hear them doing this activity ? if yes then are they present to specifically watch or listen to Cecil & Claude? or just some people who happen to be in the vacinity?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 601
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Posted on Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, any sort of public this one or government building? but not this one

Do they do this activity for their own benefit? no enjoyment? no health? no do they earn income from doing it? no Does it cost money to do this activity? yes

Does doing it in their own way increase any benefit of the activity? no

Does this activity benefit others? very much so entertain them? no does it, or could it offend or annoy anyone? most unlikely

Does anyone see or hear them doing this activity ? you need to think of it not so much as an activity that takes place over a short period of time, but one that continues over months and years. The place where the conversation took place is not directly related to the activity that these people perform in common. if yes then are they present to specifically watch or listen to Cecil & Claude? no or just some people who happen to be in the vicinity? no
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1894
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Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the benefit to others a health benefit? financial? increased knowledge? safety?

Are Claude & Cecil aware of the benefit and is this their sole motivation for doing this?

Any political aspects?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 602
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Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the benefit to others a health benefit? possibly this financial? but more usually this increased knowledge? rarely this safety? nor this

Are Claude & Cecil aware of the benefit yes and is this their sole motivation for doing this? no

Any political aspects? not in the present time, but in former days...
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1895
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm this is tough but then it is a Woubit puzzle.

Would Claude & Cecil's actions be seen as philanthropic? Are they in a position to exert political influence? are they lobbyists of some kind? Are they conducting some sort of social expirement?

Just to clarify that C&C get no benefit from this action other than perhaps a sense of helping others.

Does the benefit to others increase their take home pay? reduce the cost of something? make something more readily available? do they end up getting something for nothing?

Would C&C's actions still have a beneficial effect today? would it always have during the 20th century for instance?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 603
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would Claude & Cecil's actions be seen as philanthropic? most certainly - good question Are they in a position to exert political influence? no are they lobbyists of some kind? no Are they conducting some sort of social expirement? no

Just to clarify that C&C get no benefit from this action other than perhaps a sense of helping others. indeed

Does the benefit to others increase their take home pay? reduce the cost of something? make something more readily available? do they end up getting something for nothing? if you consider that what Claude and Cecil are doing is simply "engaging in philanthropy", you know all that you need to know - what they do can have various beneficial effects at various times, including all that you cite above

Would C&C's actions still have a beneficial effect today? yes would it always have during the 20th century for instance? yes

A short summary: Claude and Cecil are at a social gathering, the primary motivation behind which is philanthropy. The gathering takes place in the week immediatley after Easter. During the gathering, the conversation:

"After you, Claude."

"No, no - after you, Cecil."

"Ah yes, quite so - but last week, I would have been right."

takes place, and your mission is to explain it.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 1896
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just want to check an assumption i've been making. When Claude say's he would have been right does he mean correct or does he mean right as in opposite to left?

as a leftie myself I have the teeniest resentment that the word right is taken to mean correct given that one could infer that left is then wrong

anyway back to the puzzle


Are they at a charity auction? dinner? are they doing a sponsored something or other? Does the exact nature of the gathering matter or is it enough to know that it's purpose is to raise money?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 604
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just want to check an assumption i've been making. When Claude says he would have been right does he mean correct this one or does he mean right as in opposite to left? and not this one

Are they at a charity auction? no dinner? or lunch, or some such function are they doing a sponsored something or other? no Does the exact nature of the gathering matter very much so or is it enough to know that it's purpose is to raise money? no - you need to know more about the gathering
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they toastmasters? masons? a wine club? public speaking relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 605
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they toastmasters? no masons? no, bit this is closer to the right forest a wine club? no public speaking relevant? no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When there is a switch from "Cecil after Claude" to "Claude after Cecil" each year at Easter Monday, is there also a switch back later in the year? if so: at a specific date? in [list of months from May till April]?
Is the country where this takes place the UK? England? Scotland? Wales?
a European country? an English speaking country?
British Commonwealth? Australia?
Are there similar gatherings during the rest of the year where Cecil and Claude participate?
Could anyone participate in this gathering? or does one have to fulfil some qualifications? pay money? can participate by invitation only?
Is the age of Cecil and Claude relevant?
Does "Cecil after Claude" refer to the order in which they enter the room? order in which they take place? order in which they say or do something? order in which they give a speech?
Is any member of the Royals present in this gathering? Are Cecil and/or Claude Royals themselves?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Cecil & Claude ex military? Are military ranks relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 606
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When there is a switch from "Cecil after Claude" to "Claude after Cecil" each year at Easter Monday, is there also a switch back later in the year? no - the switch takes place exactly once a year if so: at a specific date? in [list of months from May till April]?
Is the country where this takes place the UK? this one England? Scotland? Wales?
a European country? an English speaking country?
British Commonwealth? Australia?
Are there similar gatherings during the rest of the year where Cecil and Claude participate? yes
Could anyone participate in this gathering? no or does one have to fulfil some qualifications? yes pay money? in some caese, but not all can participate by invitation only? yesish
Is the age of Cecil and Claude relevant? no, except that they are adults
Does "Cecil after Claude" refer to the order in which they enter the room? not necessarily order in which they take place? yes order in which they say or do something? noish order in which they give a speech? no
Is any member of the Royals present in this gathering? not usually, but it is not unknown Are Cecil and/or Claude Royals themselves? no

Are Cecil & Claude ex military? no Are military ranks relevant? no
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So for the entire year starting with the week after Easter involved in the puzzle statement, "Cecil before Claude" would be accurate? And beginning Easter Monday a year from now, "Claude before Cecil" would become accurate? and last an entire year?

Will this switch occur ad infinitem? Will it occur only until either Claude or Cecil dies? Are there other people for whom this situation occurs as well? Are Claude and Cecil the only ones to experience it currently? ever?

If Claude and Cecil were children, would this situation be happening to them? as it is now?

Would any knowledge on UK philanthropic events be needed to help solve this puzzle? Is either Claude or Cecil a master of ceremonies of the event(s)? Are both? Are they merely participants?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 607
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Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So for the entire year starting with the week after Easter involved in the puzzle statement, "Cecil before Claude" would be accurate? positively, Mr Gallagher And beginning Easter Monday a year from now, "Claude before Cecil" would become accurate? and last an entire year? absolutely, Mr Shean

Will this switch occur ad infinitem? it will not outlast the heat death of the Universe, but it will probably outlast most of us Will it occur only until either Claude or Cecil dies? no - it existed before this particular Claude or Cecil was born, and it will continue after they are gone Are there other people for whom this situation occurs as well? very much so Are Claude and Cecil the only ones to experience it currently? ever? by no means

If Claude and Cecil were children, would this situation be happening to them? no as it is now? no

Would any knowledge on UK philanthropic events be needed to help solve this puzzle? some knowledge of a particular subset of UK philanthropists would help Is either Claude or Cecil a master of ceremonies of the event(s)? no Are both? no Are they merely participants? yes
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 487
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Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the participants members of a particular club or society? (Lions? Rotary? ACPB?)
Are the names of Claude and Cecil relevant? Do the participants take seat in alphabetical order? (and the following year in reverse alphabetical order?) Can they chose themselves where to sit down?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 608
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Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the participants members of a particular club or society? yes, indeed (Lions? Rotary? ACPB?) but none of those
Are the names of Claude and Cecil relevant? no Do the participants take seat in alphabetical order? no (and the following year in reverse alphabetical order?) Can they chose themselves where to sit down? no
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 488
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can one become a member of this club on own request? by recommendation? by appointment? by "buying in"? by nationality? by birth?
Is the club located in UK only? in London? does it have branches/chapters in other countries?
Is the seating order at the table predefined? (i.e. defined completely before any of the club members enters the room)
Is it the same order each year? (so, that just the sequence in which the seats are taken changes)
Or does the seat one can chose depend on the seats the others before him took?
Is the switch to "Cecil after Claude" triggered by something that Claude and/or Cecil do or did? or something that happened to them?
or does the switch "just happen"?
Is the switch something specific for Cecil and Claude? or does it happen to any two members of the club that regularly attend these charity dinners?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 609
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can one become a member of this club FA on own request? no by recommendation? no by appointment? yesish by "buying in"? no by nationality? no by birth? no
Is the FA club located in UK only? yes in London? yes does it FA have branches/chapters in other countries? no
Is the seating order at the table predefined? yes (i.e. defined completely before any of the club members enters the room) yes
Is it the same order each year? (so, that just the sequence in which the seats are taken changes) I don't understand this question - the "seating order" is the same as "the sequence in which the seats are taken
Or does the seat one can chose depend on the seats the others before him took? no
Is the switch to "Cecil after Claude" triggered by something that Claude and/or Cecil do or did? no or something that happened to them? no
or does the switch "just happen"? yes, as far as they are concerned - they cannot do anything about it
Is the switch something specific for Cecil and Claude? no or does it happen to any two members of the club FA, and to clear it up I should say that there is more than one "club" in operation here; Claude belongs to a particular club, Cecil to another, and the gathering is a meeting of the "clubs" to which each belongs that regularly attend these charity dinners? yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1899
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a particular criteria for entry to these "Clubs"? Does one have to have been included in the new year's honours list for example? Do C&C have any relevant letters after their names?

Are these "clubs" simply a gathering of people who have something in common or are they official "clubs or societies" with rules secretaries officers etc.?

What i'm getting at is that if I bought a BMW an other BMW owner might say "welcome to the club" despite the fact that i've not joined anything.

Any of this relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 610
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a particular criteria for entry to these "Clubs"? yes Does one have to have been included in the new year's honours list for example? no Do C&C have any relevant letters after their names? no

Are these "clubs" simply a gathering of people who have something in common or are they official "clubs or societies" with rules secretaries officers etc.? this one

What i'm getting at is that if I bought a BMW an other BMW owner might say "welcome to the club" despite the fact that i've not joined anything. not this sort of thing

Any of this relevant? yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1900
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the members' former occupations relevant? Are the "clubs" associations of retired somethings? Or do the members come from all walks of life? Is wealth an entry criteria ?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 611
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the members' former occupations relevant? very much so, as indeed might their present occupations be Are the "clubs" associations of retired somethings? no Or do the members come from all walks of life? the members of any one given club come from one given walk of life Is wealth an entry criteria ? no, and nor is it a criterion
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 490
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the occupation of the members of at least one of the clubs related to politics? academia? arts? military? sports? hunting? religion? public services? law system?
Are the members of at least one of the clubs noblemen? members of the House of Lords? members of the Privy Council?
Are the clubs best described as "professional societies" where only people who work in a particular profession can become members?
Do the participants in these charity dinners take seat "club by club"? and the criteria/criterion that decides whether Claude or Cecil are first is the club to which they belong?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 612
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the occupation of the members of at least one of the clubs related to politics? academia? arts? military? sports? hunting? religion? public services? law system? to none of these except possibly hunting, and that only tenuously Are the members of at least one of the clubs noblemen? members of the House of Lords? members of the Privy Council? none of those
Are the clubs best described as "professional societies" where only people who work in a particular profession can become members? very much so, indeed
Do the participants in these charity dinners take seat "club by club"? and the criteria/criterion that decides whether Claude or Cecil are first is the club to which they belong? that sort of thing, yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 1:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry i've neglected this one

Are any particular branches of science relevant? or medicine?

Is memebership of the particular profession enough to entitle one to membership of either club or would one have had to achieve some particular distinction such as being published or winning an award?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 616
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 10:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any particular branches of science relevant? or medicine? no

Is memebership of the particular profession enough to entitle one to membership of either club yes, with certain constraints or would one have had to achieve some particular distinction such as being published or winning an award? nothing like this

As a clue, consider what names might be given to groups of people all of whom are members of a particular profession
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 492
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 8:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

guild? fraternity? society?
Are the names of these organizations relevant?
Are these people: craftsmen? accountants? lawyers? teachers? writers? artists?
The Livery of London relevant?
Is this relevant at all to solve the puzzle?
Does the sequence in which the people take seat depend on the name of the organization to which they belong? is it a fixed order that was established centuries ago and nobody dares to question in our days?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 617
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

guild? this is closest, and... fraternity? society?
Are the names of these organizations relevant? yes
Are these people: craftsmen? this is closest, and... accountants? lawyers? teachers? writers? artists?
The Livery of London relevant? ...this is...
Is this relevant at all to solve the puzzle? ...precisely what you need
Does the sequence in which the people take seat depend on the name of the organization to which they belong? yes is it a fixed order no that was established centuries ago and nobody dares to question in our days? yes

Not far to go now
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1902
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the conversation take place at a meeting of all the guilds under the auspices of the Livery of London? Is the order which they are seated relevant? Is it too simple a guess to ask if this order changes every easter? Do we need to know which guild(s) they are members of such as MasterMariners or do we have enough info ?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 618
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the conversation take place at a meeting of all the guilds under the auspices of the Livery of London? well, there is no such thing exactly as the Livery of London - there are a number of Worshipful Companies who are based in London and granted Livery, but apart from that, the answer to your question is "yes, very much so" Is the order which they are seated relevant? indeed Is it too simple a guess to ask if this order changes every Easter? not simple at all, for that is precisely what happens Do we need to know which guild(s) they are members of such as MasterMariners you might as well find out, and spoil the puzzle, for you and Sundowner have performed very worshipfully indeed or do we have enough info ?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1903
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well i don't want to look up the answer so a couple of questions..

Does the order they are seated depend on their members ? how old the company is? Do all the companies positions change or just Claude & Cecil's?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 619
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does the order they are seated depend on their members ? no how old the company is? no Do all the companies positions change no or just Claude & Cecil's? yes
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Username: Peter365

Post Number: 1904
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So the order that C&Cs worshipful companies are seated is the only one that changes each year. There is a strict order of preference for everyone else right? Is this likely to continue into the future? Is there some ancient dispute between C&C's companies and this swapping of order is a compromise? Do we need to find out how the company is granted livery (not sure that's the right phrase)? Is it by Royal appointment?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 620
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Apologies for neglecting this, but Peter has done easily enough for the

***** SPOILER *****

The Livery Companies of London were originally the Guilds of tradesmen, the forerunners of today's trade unions. Nowadays their function is almost entirely social, and they perform many charitable works.

The Worshipful Companies are ranked in order of precedence, with the Mercers (an old word that just means "merchants") first and the Security Professionals last.

The company of Merchant Taylors (an old spelling of "tailors") and the company of Skinners (traders in fur and hides) quarrelled for over a century as to which should rank higher. In 1484 Sir Robert Billesden, Lord Mayor of London, decreed that the two companies should alternate in sixth and seventh place in the order of precedence. It is said that this is the origin of the phrase "at sixes and sevens", but this is almost certainly untrue - the idiom was used by Chaucer long before 1484.

Every Easter, then, the Worshipful Company of Merchant Taylors and the Worshipful Company of Skinners change places in the order of precedence. This puzzle involves Claude, a Taylor, and Cecil, a Skinner, deciding which of them shall enter some formal gathering of the Liverymen first, the event taking place in the week after Easter Sunday.

Well done Peter, well done the Lord Mayor, and thanks to all who joined in.

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