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Markobr (Markobr)
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Post Number: 183
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ordering bad work helped to solve the problem.
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

bad work = work done badly? work for a bad cause? illegal work?

Is the problem financial? procedural? functional? social?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there one person ordering? One person the order is given to?

Real situation? FYOI? Fiction?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

bad work = work done badly? This. work for a bad cause? illegal work?

Is the problem financial? Yes, at least indirectly and partially. procedural? I don't think so. functional? Not sure what you mean. social? Yes.

Is there one person ordering? Yes. One person the order is given to? No.

Real situation? Possibly. FYOI? Fiction? Probably folklore/urban legend.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the order given to an organization?

Does the orderer know he/she is ordering bad work? Does he/she do it on purpose? Is it relevant whether it's a "he" or a "she"?

Does the work ordered involve something tangible (eg. manufacturing a product)?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the order given to an organization? Yes. Or rather, to some part of an organization.

Does the orderer know he/she is ordering bad work? Yes. Does he/she do it on purpose? Yes. Is it relevant whether it's a "he" or a "she"? It's somewhat relevant, and it's a "he".

Does the work ordered involve something tangible (eg. manufacturing a product)? No.
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he deliberately order bad work in order to make up for something which went wrong earlier?

If so, was the first "bad work" done by the same part of an organization?

Does the work ordered involve preparing some documents? Giving some advice? Repairing something?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he deliberately order bad work in order to make up for something which went wrong earlier? No.

If so, was the first "bad work" done by the same part of an organization? FA.

Does the work ordered involve preparing some documents? Giving some advice? Repairing something? Nothing of this.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he order bad work in order to make money? Is he subverting a regulation (for example ordering shoddy construction in order to get insurance when it collapses)?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does he order bad work in order to make money? This is one of his motives, but quite misleading.

Is he subverting a regulation (for example ordering shoddy construction in order to get insurance when it collapses)? No.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So money is a motive, but not the primary motive? A secondary motive, perhaps? Is the prime motive:

- Love?
- Revenge?
- Honor?
- Restitution for something?
- Criminal? Larcenous?
- Have anything to do with government? Espionage?

Was ordering the bad work his own idea, or was he told to do it by someone else?

How many others involved? 1? 2? 3? More?

Era relevant? Location relevant? Season of year relevant? How long the work takes relevant?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So money is a motive, but not the motive? Probably not. A secondary motive, perhaps? One of the motives. Is the prime motive:

- Love? No.
- Revenge? No.
- Honor? Maybe another motive.
- Restitution for something? No.
- Criminal? No. Larcenous? No, but...
- Have anything to do with government? Yes. Espionage? But No.

Was ordering the bad work his own idea This, or was he told to do it by someone else?

How many others involved? 1? 2? 3? More? More.

Era relevant? Yes. Location relevant? Yes. Season of year relevant? Yes. How long the work takes relevant? Not really.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LTPF list of centuries? LTPF list of continents? LTPF list of seasons?

Is the commissioner of the work a government employee? Are the workers government employees? Are the others involved government employees?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LTPF list of centuries? 18th century. LTPF list of continents? Europe. LTPF list of seasons? Spring, summer, and early autumn.

Is the commissioner of the work a government employee? Yope. Are the workers government employees? Yes. Are the others involved government employees? No.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is anyone involved famous? The commissioner of the work?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is anyone involved famous? Yes. The commissioner of the work? Yes.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Royalty involved? Politician? Artist? Religious personage?

The work being done:

- manual labor?
- destruction?
- construction?

Is a building of some sort involved? A public building?

Can the work not be done in winter? Farming relevant? War?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Royalty involved? This. Politician? And by consequence this. Artist? Religious personage?

The work being done:

- manual labor? Noish or Yope.
- destruction? No.
- construction? No.

Is a building of some sort involved? No. A public building?

Can the work not be done in winter? Correct. Farming relevant? Yes. War? No.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A king? Prince? Other? Relevant? Ordered someone? Or a group? To not farm? To farm improperly?

Were fields allowed to lie fallow? Salted? Food allowed to rot, or destroyed?

Livestock involved, agriculture, or both?

Did people starve as a consequence? Was the king's intention to prevent starvation? Did he intend to punish? reward?
Alhucema (Alhucema)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Growing something? Animals involved?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A king? This. Prince? Other? Relevant? Quite relevant. Ordered someone? Or a group? This. (It is possible however that he gave the order personally only to one person. But it was intended to be done by a group. To not farm? No. To farm improperly? No.

Were fields allowed to lie fallow? Salted? Food allowed to rot, or destroyed? Nothing of this.

Livestock involved, agriculture This., or both?

Did people starve as a consequence? No. Was the king's intention to prevent starvation? Yes. Did he intend to punish? No. reward? No.
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Growing something? Growing something plays an important role. The work in question, however, is not growing something. Animals involved? No, at least not in a relevant way.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are his people likely to praise the king for his actions? Immediately, or in future? Ditto for protesting/grumbling.

Did he order all his people to do this thing? A particular segment? People in a particular location? People led by a particular lord/vassal?

Is this a true story? Does it occur in France? Britain? Germany? Russia? Austria? Italy? Scandinavia? The Baltic? Iberia?

Nothing was destroyed or built... was a different or new crop to be grown? Were his people starving at the time or was this intended to prevent starvation in the future?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are his people likely to praise the king for his actions? Yes. Immediately, or in future? In future. Ditto for protesting/grumbling. This may have occured in connection with the king's more general activities to solve the problem but not with his ordering bad work.

Did he order all his people to do this thing? No. A particular segment? Yope. People in a particular location? Certain people there. People led by a particular lord/vassal? Yope.

Is this a true story? Maybe, but probably folklore/urban legend. Does it occur in France? Britain? Germany? This. Russia? Austria? Italy? Scandinavia? The Baltic? Iberia?

Nothing was destroyed or built... was a different or new crop to be grown? Yes. But the order in question was not growing the crop. Were his people starving at the time or was this intended to prevent starvation in the future This.?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LTPF list of countries?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LTPF list of countries? Prussia. As to "particular location" inside Prussia, I'm not sure, and it's also irrelevant. The relevant order didn't directly affect the whole of Prussia, however.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 3:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a new method of growth, sowing, fertilization or another task ordered?

Was the king personally interested in farming?

Was the bad work objectively bad, or did it just appear bad and would turn out in future to have been a good decision?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a new method of growth, sowing, fertilization or another task ordered? b{Another task, not itself agricultural in nature.}

Was the king personally interested in farming? Yes.

Was the bad work objectively bad, or did it just appear bad and would turn out in future to have been a good decision? b{If you consider the normal way and purpose of the work, it was objectively bad - the result was what you usually want to avoid if you do work of this kind. But this helped solve a problem as the king intended.}
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 5:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the king a lateral thinker?

Nothing was built or destroyed -- Was a physical action done? Outdoors or indoors? Is the local terrain relevant? Was this done at a specific location or locations? By one person, two, more? A whole village? Was any training necessary?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the king a lateral thinker? Well, probably. Just that he had the idea this puzzle is about seems to show it...

Nothing was built or destroyed -- Was a physical action done? Yes. Outdoors This. or indoors? Is the local terrain relevant? Not really. Was this done at a specific location or locations? Yes. By one person, two, more? More. A whole village? No. People like those doing the work usually don't live in villages. Was any training necessary? They were trained. No special training was necessary to prepare for the task in question.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the people doing the work unskilled? Craftsmen? Members of guilds? Farmers? Soldiers? Prisoners? Were animals used? Is physical exercise relevant? Is the title relevant?

Is anyone relevant besides the king and his subjects? Another king, for example? Was the king trying to set an example? To improve the taxes he would later be paid? To feed his subjects?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were the people doing the work unskilled? Craftsmen? Members of guilds? Farmers? Soldiers? This. Prisoners? Were animals used? Maybe horses, but irrelevant Is physical exercise relevant? Not really. Is the title relevant? No.

Is anyone relevant besides the king and his subjects? No, although there are other relevant people than the king and the soldiers. Another king, for example? No. Was the king trying to set an example? Yesish. To improve the taxes he would later be paid? Yes. This is the "make money" motive from above. To feed his subjects? Yes.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a machine being built? An obstacle?

By physical exercise I meant physical labor. Does this apply? Could some group other than soldiers have done the work?

Is digging relevant? A canal? Wells?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a machine being built? An obstacle? No to both.

By physical exercise I meant physical labor. Does this apply? No. Could some group other than soldiers have done the work? Probably not. It is work typically done by soldiers (well, today more by policemen).

Is digging relevant? A canal? Wells? No.
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 1:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So it would help to figure out what soldiers and police have in common?

Does the work involve security or protection of something? Require weapons to be used? Are any of the following skills necessary to what they were doing:

- use of specialized equipment
- communication
- alertness
- discipline
- observation
- interaction with civilians
- preventing or restricting movement

Is anything criminal going on?

Is anyone besides the soldiers and the king relevant?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So it would help to figure out what soldiers and police have in common? Yes. But keep in mind that we talk about soldiers in 18th century Prussia, not about soldiers in my/your country today. I doubt the Prussian king would have had the option to replace the soldiers by policemen.

Does the work involve security or protection of something? YES. Require weapons to be used? Yes. Well, at least to be carried. Are any of the following skills necessary to what they were doing:

- use of specialized equipment No (besides of weapons).
- communication No.
- alertness Yes.
- discipline would be helpful.
- observation Yes.
- interaction with civilians Probably.
- preventing or restricting movement Noish.

Note that these skills are required for the work being done properly. Alertness and observation are far less required for doing the work badly. Interaction with civilians may be even more important.

Is anything criminal going on? Yes. But not on the side of the soldiers or the king.

Is anyone besides the soldiers and the king relevant? Yes. The "criminals".
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the soldiers guarding something? Preventing people from going inside? From taking something? Are they trying to insufficiently guard it? Perhaps to allow a building to be burgled? And the soldiers are there to get the attention of the burglars ("Ooh, must be something valuable in there.")
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the soldiers guarding something? Yes. Preventing people from going inside? Inside? No. From taking something? YES. Are they trying to insufficiently guard it? YES!!! Perhaps to allow a building to be burgled? But no. And the soldiers are there to get the attention of the burglars ("Ooh, must be something valuable in there.") YES!!!
Indianforce (Indianforce)
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Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a trap to lure the burglars into thinking that the building isn't well-guarded, and then surprise them?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it a trap to lure the burglars into thinking that the building isn't well-guarded, and then surprise them? No. And what building?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the peasants suspicious when ordered to plant the crop, but when they think it's valuable, are willing to steal it and grow it w/out being told? Anything similar?
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the peasants suspicious when ordered to plant the crop, but when they think it's valuable, are willing to steal it and grow it w/out being told? YES. Anything similar? That's basically the story. Time for a

****SPOILER****

This is the story of the Prussian King Frederic II. (also known as Frederic the Great) and the introduction of the potato as a widespread crop in Prussia. Like in other countries, the farmers were quite sceptical about the introduction of the unknown crop, and it turned out to be difficult to convince them. After some unsuccessful attempts in parts of his country, Frederic resorted to a trick. He ordered potatoes to be planted on crown land and then be guarded by soldiers. The soldiers, however, were instructed to guard them badly: to brag about the valuable crop exclusively destined for the King's table during daytime and to frequently look away or sham being asleep at night. Soon, the first farmers came to the fields to steal the "forbidden fruits" and plant them on their own fields...
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 2:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a pretty cool story. Good puzzle!
Markobr (Markobr)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BTW, this is a fairly well-known story in Germany - fortunately, this is an international forum where most people don't know your local folk-lore!

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