| Author | Message | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2370 Registered: 11-2008 |
At the eve of Val's first competition, her coach put his arm around her shoulders and said: "You have practised a lot, you have the necessary technique and stamina, and if you are determined enough, you have almost no limits. However, please be aware there is one goal you will never achieve, no matter how hard you try." What was the goal, and why? | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is Val's sport relevant? Swimming? Gymnastics? Tennis? Is it a team sport? Is it an outdoor sport? Is it a goal others have achieved? Is it a goal others in her sport have achieved? | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2010 |
And when I say "sport" I do mean "competition", in case we're dealing with iffy definitions of sport. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 460 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does her goal involve winning a competition for another gender (i.e. Men's tennis)? Can she not achieve it because she's already competed once? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2371 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is Val's sport relevant? Yes Swimming? Gymnastics? Tennis? None of these Is it a team sport? You can compete both as an individual and in a team Is it an outdoor sport? No Is it a goal others have achieved? Yes Is it a goal others in her sport have achieved? Assume no And when I say "sport" I do mean "competition", in case we're dealing with iffy definitions of sport. OK. Does her goal involve winning a competition for another gender (i.e. Men's tennis)? No Can she not achieve it because she's already competed once? No | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 226 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is it an Olympic event? Can you compete in an ordinary gym? Is water involved? Is a ball involved? Is something held in the hands during the competition (racket, stick, etc.)? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 466 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is this a physical competition? (Like baseball) Intellectual? (Like debate team) | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2373 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it an Olympic event? Yep Can you compete in an ordinary gym? Yes, with some necessary modifications Is water involved? No Is a ball involved? No Is something held in the hands during the competition (racket, stick, etc.)? Yes Is this a physical competition? (Like baseball) Yes Intellectual? (Like debate team) You do have to use your intellect a lot, but let us assume it is rather physical | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 469 Registered: 4-2010 |
Summer Olympics? Winter? Is it gymnastics? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2374 Registered: 11-2008 |
Summer Olympics? This Winter? Is it gymnastics? No | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 227 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is it a winter event? Summer event? Fencing? Shooting? Weightlifting? Archery? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 470 Registered: 4-2010 |
So, quick summary: Val's event is a Summer Olympic event that can be individual or team. It is played indoors, but neither water nor a ball is involved. You hold something when playing it. Is this right? Random and probably wrong guess: fencing? Is Val's height involved? Weight? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2377 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it a winter event? Summer event? Fencing? This Shooting? Weightlifting? Archery? So, quick summary: Val's event is a Summer Olympic event that can be individual or team. It is played indoors, but neither water nor a ball is involved. You hold something when playing it. Is this right? Absolutely. Random and probably wrong guess: fencing? Random and definitely correct guess: yes. Is Val's height involved? Weight? Neither | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 474 Registered: 4-2010 |
Wow. I had no idea there was such a thing as team fencing, that's why I thought I was wrong. Does her goal involve the amount of points scored? Placement of hits? Which sword she uses? | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 229 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is the goal fame? I assume the fact that their faces are covered certainly doesn't help with that... | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 1192 Registered: 10-2008 |
Is the unachievable goal related to a record? Related to one action or skill within the sport? Related to the score? Could anyone in Val's sport achieve this goal? Is it something they would even shoot for? Would it ever be something achievable? Is the goal more involved with semantics than actual action, like "to be the best ________ player ever" or "to do better than I did yesterday"? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 476 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her goal an individual goal? Team goal? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2378 Registered: 11-2008 |
Wow. I had no idea there was such a thing as team fencing, that's why I thought I was wrong. There is indeed :-)) Does her goal involve the amount of points scored? Noish Placement of hits? No Which sword she uses? No Is the goal fame? No I assume the fact that their faces are covered certainly doesn't help with that...It doesn't; however, they have plenty of time in-between matches with their masks off :-)) Is the unachievable goal related to a record? No Related to one action or skill within the sport? No Related to the score? Yesish Could anyone in Val's sport achieve this goal? No Is it something they would even shoot for? No Would it ever be something achievable? It would be achievable if certain circumstances are changed Is the goal more involved with semantics than actual action, like "to be the best ________ player ever" or "to do better than I did yesterday"? No Is her goal an individual goal? Team goal? Can be both | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 231 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is the nature of the scoring system relevant? The length of the matches? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2379 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the nature of the scoring system relevant? Yes (if I understand well what you mean) The length of the matches? No | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 479 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is it possible for there to be a shutout in fencing? Is this her goal? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2380 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it possible for there to be a shutout in fencing? You mean whether you can win a match without scoring? If so, yes, there is Is this her goal? No HINT: You do not need to have special knowledge as to the fencing technique to figure this out | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 483 Registered: 4-2010 |
I meant, is it possible to win without the other team scoring? So a fencing technique is involved? Does it involve the boundary lines? Any fancy moves? Killing a zombie with a fencing sword? | ||
| Gourami (Gourami)
Moderator Username: Gourami Post Number: 1196 Registered: 10-2008 |
Could this be an achievable goal in another sport? Could it be similarly unachievable in another sport? Would you need to learn or know anything about fencing to solve this puzzle? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2381 Registered: 11-2008 |
I meant, is it possible to win without the other team scoring? Yes, but irrelevant in our case. So a fencing technique is involved? No; sorry if I've misled you Does it involve the boundary lines? Any fancy moves? No to both Killing a zombie with a fencing sword? Well, that would be ANOTHER inachievable goal; the first one is yet to be found :-)) Could this be an achievable goal in another sport? It is perfectly achievable in most sports Could it be similarly unachievable in another sport? In theory, yes Would you need to learn or know anything about fencing to solve this puzzle? Yes, there is one relevant thing you would need to know, but I think you do not need any highly specialized information to work it out | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 489 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does it involve the amount of equipment worn when fencing? The method of scoring? | ||
| Galfisk (Galfisk)
New member Username: Galfisk Post Number: 2021 Registered: 9-2009 |
Is a winning or losing streak relevant? Some sort of high score? Is her nationality relevant? Race? Gender? Age? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2382 Registered: 11-2008 |
Does it involve the amount of equipment worn when fencing? No The method of scoring? If you mean the scoring mechanism and/or equipment, than No Is a winning or losing streak relevant? Yesish Some sort of high score? Could you please specify this? Is her nationality relevant? Race? Gender? Age? Neither | ||
| It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
New member Username: It_so_happened Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2010 |
Is it related to scoring within a single game? A series of games? A tournament? | ||
| Emeraldink (Emeraldink)
New member Username: Emeraldink Post Number: 497 Registered: 4-2007 |
Is odd / even scores relevant? Half-points? | ||
| Jumpingjack (Jumpingjack)
New member Username: Jumpingjack Post Number: 1319 Registered: 3-2006 |
Is there a score 'ceiling'? Don't know much about fencing at all, but I'm hoping to take it up one day! | ||
| Noel (Noel)
New member Username: Noel Post Number: 1760 Registered: 7-2009 |
Does fencing have a maximum possible high score? Which has already been reached? So it's impossible to set a new high score? | ||
| Martinfg (Martinfg)
New member Username: Martinfg Post Number: 853 Registered: 8-2005 |
Is there a certain scoreline that is impossible to achieve, for example if one player had to win by 3 clear points a score of 17-18 would be impossible.? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2387 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is it related to scoring within a single game? No A series of games? No A tournament? Yes Is odd / even scores relevant? Half-points? No to all Is there a score 'ceiling'? Yes but irrelevant Don't know much about fencing at all, but I'm hoping to take it up one day! A fencing tournament has several rounds. In the first one, fencers are split into groups or "pools" where they fence 4 to 6 fencers in 5-touch bouts, in an "each to each" system. Depending on his/her results within the pool, the fencer is seeded" into a table chart with the other fencers of the tournament. Fencers then fence the opponent they are paired with in a single-elimination bout, usually 15 touches. If they win, they advance in the table chart, if they lose, they are eliminated from the competition. This table chart phase is called direct elimination. Does fencing have a maximum possible high score? Well, you can score a maximum of 5 hits in a match in the first round, or 15 hits in each of the direct elimination matches but this probably isn't what you meant. And it is irrelevant to the puzzle, anyway. Which has already been reached? So it's impossible to set a new high score? No Is there a certain scoreline that is impossible to achieve, for example if one player had to win by 3 clear points a score of 17-18 would be impossible.? Irrelevant | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2388 Registered: 11-2008 |
Oh, and a big BLLOOOPERR. Val's goal would be inachievable only in individual tournament, but would be achievable in teams. Sorry for that. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 692 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her goal throughout the tournament? Or only in one particular tournament game? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2389 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is her goal throughout the tournament? This-ish Or only in one particular tournament game? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 721 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would her goal be in the "pool" part of the tournament? The single-elimination round? Both? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2391 Registered: 11-2008 |
Would her goal be in the "pool" part of the tournament? No The single-elimination round? Yope Both? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 741 Registered: 4-2010 |
Specific opponent relevant? Specific sword relevant? Referee relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2394 Registered: 11-2008 |
Specific opponent relevant? Specific sword relevant? Referee relevant? Neither | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 758 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her goal related to the tournament format? Her seeding? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2398 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is her goal related to the tournament format? Yes Her seeding? I'd say yesish to yope HINT: It is related to the results of the tournament as such. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 804 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does it involve cumulative points? Lowest seed/Highest seed? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2404 Registered: 11-2008 |
Does it involve cumulative points? No Lowest seed/Highest seed? After a second thought, not really | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 842 Registered: 4-2010 |
Number of participants relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2408 Registered: 11-2008 |
Number of participants relevant? No | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 852 Registered: 4-2010 |
Would the goal be in one particular tournament game? Over the whole elimination round? The semi-finals? Finals? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2409 Registered: 11-2008 |
Would the goal be in one particular tournament game? Over the whole elimination round? The semi-finals? This is closest but beware a FA Finals? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 853 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her goal related to advancement in the tournament? Is Vera's goal related to a tournament she's in? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2410 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is her goal related to advancement in the tournament? No, rather to the overall results Is Vera's goal related to a tournament she's in? It is related to any tournament | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 854 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is her goal about finishing first? Second? Third? Fourth? Placement related to where one ended up losing in the tournament? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2411 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is her goal about finishing first? Second? Third? Fourth? This Placement related to where one ended up losing in the tournament? Now tell me why and I will spoyle | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 856 Registered: 4-2010 |
In a single elimination tournament, is placement by points? For instance, could the person who loses in the final round finish fourth? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2414 Registered: 11-2008 |
In a single elimination tournament, is placement by points? No, it is on a win-lose basis For instance, could the person who loses in the final round finish fourth? No | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 867 Registered: 4-2010 |
Does Val want to finish fourth? And finishing fourth would require making the semifinals, right? Maybe she wants to finish fourth without making the semis? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2416 Registered: 11-2008 |
Does Val want to finish fourth? Yes! And finishing fourth would require making the semifinals, right? Umm.. I am hesitating between Yope and No here Maybe she wants to finish fourth without making the semis? No | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 872 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is there a specific reason she wants to finish fourth, rather than 1st/2nd/3rd? Relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2418 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is there a specific reason she wants to finish fourth, rather than 1st/2nd/3rd? No -let's say it's just her caprice. Relevant? Just for the purposes of this puzzle. Now - WHY is this goal not achievable for Val? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 874 Registered: 4-2010 |
Are there only 3 people in this tournament? So she can't finish lower than 3rd? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2419 Registered: 11-2008 |
Are there only 3 people in this tournament? So she can't finish lower than 3rd? Very good idea - but no, this is not the reason | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 878 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the tournament going on when the coach says this to Val? Is it possible for Val to finish 1st? 2nd? 3rd? 5th? 6th? 7th? 8th? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2421 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the tournament going on when the coach says this to Val? Irr Is it possible for Val to finish 1st? 2nd? 3rd? 5th? 6th? 7th? 8th? Yes to all | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 880 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is the tournament mixed-gender? Genders relevant? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2422 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is the tournament mixed-gender? Genders relevant?Irrelevant to both | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 883 Registered: 4-2010 |
So, Val's goal is to finish 4th in a single-elimination fencing tournament, right? Reason related to Val's size? Height? Weight? Age? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 884 Registered: 4-2010 |
Ooh, thought: The two people who lose in the semi-finals will finish 3rd and 4th, right? So if Val loses in the semis, she will always finish 3rd? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2423 Registered: 11-2008 |
So, Val's goal is to finish 4th in a single-elimination fencing tournament, right? Right Reason related to Val's size? Height? Weight? Age? Neither Ooh, thought: The two people who lose in the semi-finals will finish 3rd and 4th, right? No So if Val loses in the semis, she will always finish 3rd? Yes | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 887 Registered: 4-2010 |
Could someone lose in the semis and finish 2nd? 5th? 4th (not counting Val)? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2424 Registered: 11-2008 |
Could someone lose in the semis and finish 2nd? No; that would be if you lose in the final 5th? No; that would be before the semis, if we suppose the semifinal as two matches between the four best-ranking fencers 4th (not counting Val)? No | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 889 Registered: 4-2010 |
Is there even a 4th place? Or is it just 1st/2nd/3rd? Is there a "bronze medal match"? | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2427 Registered: 11-2008 |
Is there even a 4th place? No, there isn't. Or is it just 1st/2nd/3rd? Yes, and that's the gist of it. Is there a "bronze medal match"? No, and here goes the *******************SPOILER******************* In the second round of a fencing tournament, the competitors are seeded according to their results in the first round (the "pools") in what is called the "direct elimination" This means that if there are eg. 50 competitors overall, the first 32 go to the elimination, for the rest, the competition is over. In the elimination, the best competitor (No 1) is seeded against the worst one (No 32), then No 2 against No 31 and so on. Whoever wins the match, goes further, and so on until the semifinals, where No 1 competes against No 4, and No 2 against No 3. The winners go to the finals and compete for gold and silver, the losers do not compete against each other anymore and they both receive the bronze medal. So in an individual fencing tournament, the ranking goes 1st place, 2nd place, two 3rd places, 5th place and so on. Thank you all for participating, and Balin for the final touché. Actually, I meant this puzzle as a little tribute to Val(entina) Vezzali, one of the best foil fencers ever - five times gold medalist at the Olympics, eleven times World Champion gold medalist and six times European gold winner. | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 965 Registered: 4-2010 |
Ach, of course! It's always the simplest puzzles that take longest - I was guessing all over the place, and, of course, the answer was that simple. Excellent puzzle - I didn't know that about fencing. Very interesting rule - I wonder why they don't have a bronze medal match? And how do you finish fourth in team fencing? Anyway, another great puzzle, Alhucema! | ||
| Alhucema (Alhucema)
New member Username: Alhucema Post Number: 2433 Registered: 11-2008 |
Thank you very much, Balin. I am happy you like my puzzles :-)). In fact, I do not know why the fencers do not compete for the third place, but it is so in all the competitions I know of, including the Olympics. It is better for you, though, as when you get through to the semifinals, you know you will get a medal anyway. The teams just do one more match between the losers of the semifinals as a fence-off for the third place. |
