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Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, June 07, 2010 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to have an ant-relevant scrund. Most people never had this scrund, but it's not surprising in someone from my background. What was it?
Balin (Balin)
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Does it involve a specific type of ant? How much ants can carry? Anthills? Fire ants?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Does it involve a specific type of ant? yesishHow much ants can carry? no Anthills? noFire ants? no
Balin (Balin)
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Location relevant?

Is it carpenter ants? Leaf-cutting ants (though that's probably not their technical name)?

Or is it worker ants and the like, rather than species of ant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Location relevant? yes

Is it carpenter ants? no Leaf-cutting ants (though that's probably not their technical name)? no

Or is it worker ants and the like, rather than species of ant? yes
Balin (Balin)
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"Your background" = where you grew up? What environment you grew up in?

Does the scrund involve worker ants? Queen ants (I probably just made that one up)? Drone ants (That too, I think that's bees)?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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"Your background" = where you grew up? no What environment you grew up in? yes

Does the scrund involve worker ants? yes Queen ants (I probably just made that one up)? Drone ants (That too, I think that's bees)? I don';t know whether this distinction exists among ants, but if so, it would be worker
Balin (Balin)
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Did your environment have a ton of worker ants? And so you thought they were the most common type of ant? But they're not?
Gourami (Gourami)
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Does it have to do with the sex of worker ants? Their role in the colony? Their interactions with other colonies? Their physical appearance?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Did your environment have a ton of worker ants? irrel And so you thought they were the most common type of ant? no But they're not? I have no idea!!
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Does it have to do with the sex of worker ants? no Their role in the colony? no Their interactions with other colonies? noTheir physical appearance? no
Balin (Balin)
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Does it involve the type of work they do? Their mating habits?
Noel (Noel)
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What environment you grew up in...
Urban? Suburban? Rural? Relevant?
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Slave-taking ants relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Does it involve the type of work they do? yope or yesish Their mating habits? no
Noel (Noel)
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What environment you grew up in...
Urban? Suburban? Rural? Relevant? Urban (Brooklyn, NY) but irrel
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Slave-taking ants relevant?No. I didn't even know about them before reading your post.
Galfisk (Galfisk)
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Ant navigation/path finding relevant? Ant communication? Ant strength?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Ant navigation/path finding relevant?no Ant communication?noAnt strength? no
Noel (Noel)
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Are ant bites relevant? Ant stings?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Noel (Noel)
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Are ant bites relevant? noAnt stings? no
Jenburdoo (Jenburdoo)
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Are any lifeforms besides ants relevant to this scrund? Humans? Plants? Other insets? Other animals? Fungus-grower or leaf-cutter ants relevant? Is a particular species or type of ant relevant? Ants from a certain continent, country, or terrain type? Fiction or folklore about ants?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Are any lifeforms besides ants relevant to this scrund? yesHumans? no Plants? yesOther insets? yes Other animals? noFungus-grower or leaf-cutter ants relevant? not particularly Is a particular species or type of ant relevant? no Ants from a certain continent, country, or terrain type? noFiction or folklore about ants? YES!!!! GOOOD QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!
Balin (Balin)
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Ant fiction...hmmm. Is a particular fairy tale relevant? Nursery rhyme? Book? Film? TV show?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Ant fiction...hmmm. Is a particular fairy tale relevant? not quite a fairy tale, but you're ORT Nursery rhyme? dittoBook? the tale has been in booksFilm? and filmsTV show? and on TV
Balin (Balin)
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Is it an urban legend? Regular legend (like Paul Bunyan)? Old wives' tale?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Is it an urban legend? no Regular legend (like Paul Bunyan)? yope--you're ORT Old wives' tale? no
Balin (Balin)
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...Folk song? Other song? Computer/video game? Short story? Aesop's fable? Other fable?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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...Folk song? Other song? Computer/video game? Short story? Aesop's fable? Other fable? Aesop's fable
Nimue (Nimue)
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HINT: Now it should be easy. I can think of only one fable that involves an ant & another insect.
Balin (Balin)
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Ant & grasshopper?

(Can't think of what the scrund would be though...)
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Ant & grasshopper? Yes

(Can't think of what the scrund would be though...) I said that the environment I grew up in is relevant. Find out what aspect is relevant.
Balin (Balin)
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Hmmm...

Were there lots of grasshoppers where you grew up?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Hmmm...

Were there lots of grasshoppers where you grew up? In Brooklyn? No.
Balin (Balin)
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Are any of the following aspects of the environment relevant:

-Level of education?
-Proportion of liberals/conservatives?
-Poverty level?
-Housing?
-Religious population?
-Family life?
-Life expectancy?
-Other kids?
-Leisure activity?
-Dialect?
Balin (Balin)
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Aack, wasn't done.

-Climate?
-Electricity?
-Clean water?
-Food?
-Size of buildings?
-Method of transportation?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Are any of the following aspects of the environment relevant:

-Level of education?
-Proportion of liberals/conservatives?
-Poverty level?
-Housing?
-Religious population?
-Family life?
-Life expectancy?
-Other kids?
-Leisure activity?
-Dialect?
Balin (Balin)
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Aack, wasn't done.

-Climate?
-Electricity?
-Clean water?
-Food?
-Size of buildings?
-Method of transportation? The only thing relevant is proportion of liberals/conservatives. They were virtually all liberal & took liberalism for granted.
Balin (Balin)
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Is any particular part of the fable relevant? The moral?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Balin (Balin)
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Is any particular part of the fable relevant? yes The moral? yes
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Is the idea of ants being hard-working relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Is the idea of ants being hard-working relevant? yes, but it's not the only factor
Balin (Balin)
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Is the season relevant? Winter?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Is the season relevant? YesWinter? Yes, but that's not the only relevant season.
Balin (Balin)
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Is the idea of preparing for winter in spring/summer/fall relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Is the idea of preparing for winter in spring/summer/fall relevant? yes
Balin (Balin)
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Did you think that ants prepared for winter in the early seasons? That this was a smart thing? A bad thing? Did you think that grasshoppers did not make these preparations?
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Did you think that ants prepared for winter in the early seasons?Well, I thought the ant in the fable did. I had no beliefs about whether real ants did. That this was a smart thing? yesA bad thing? no Did you think that grasshoppers did not make these preparations? Well, I thought that the grasshopper in the fable did not. I had no beliefs about whether real grasshoppers did.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you assume that ants were smarter than grasshoppers?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Did you assume that ants were smarter than grasshoppers? No. Keep in mind that the relevant aspect of my background was that virtually everyone took liberalism for granted.
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Did you assume that part of the moral was that the ant should help the grasshopper in his time of need?
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Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 7:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Did you assume that part of the moral was that the ant should help the grasshopper in his time of need?I didn't assume it; I was taught that this was the moral!!


***SPOILER ***********
In case anyone doesn't know the fable of the ant & the grasshopper, it's about how the grasshopper had fun all summer, while the ant worked & stored up food for winter. Then when winter came & the grasshopper asked the ant for help, the ant told the grasshopper he should have prepared for winter, too. Coming from an almost exclusively liberal background, I was taught that the moral of the fable was that you shouldn't be like the ant. I still think that's a better moral, but of course it wasn't Aesop's original moral, which was that you shouldn't be like the grasshopper. Thanks for sticking with it, everyone, & for solving it, Ohlala8, & please check out my new puzzle you know where.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I always felt that way about the little red hen, too. Sure, she gets to be all smug and say "Hey, I did all the work, I get all the bread," but she could also admit that sometimes it's nice to share with people even when they don't necessarily deserve it. But I have a very politically conservative friend who uses that story to demonstrate why government bailouts are bad.
Beccaann (Beccaann)
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Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 4:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tend to think maybe the ant should tell the grasshopper, ok, i'll help you this time but next time you need to prepare. and then next time, when the grasshopper doesnt prepare, then he can tell him tough luck buddy.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I were poor, I sure wouldn't want charity dispensed according to whether I "deserved" it! So I think charity (& welfare) should be based on need, not "desert."
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had a video when I was really little, of stories by this guy named Leo Leoni, and one of them was similar, but with squirrels collecting nuts and seeds for the winter. One of them just lounged around all day.

When the others asked him what he was doing, he said he was collecting sunshine, so that the others could be warm during the winter. So the people you were growing up with would have liked that variation, I'm sure.
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 5:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Correction: I just looked it up, and the guy's last name is spelled Leoni, and the story is about mice, not squirrels. You can find a maze game about it on this page:
http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/lionni/activities.php

Well, my memory was reasonably good considering it's been about 20 years...
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 5:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, but really cannot type!
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe it’s one too many moral philosophy classes talking, but I can’t get this out of my head. Nimue, I agree with you to a point – for the most part, people aren’t qualified to judge who’s deserving. There are no objective standards. So as a general principle, it’s best to assume that everyone is deserving, and give accordingly. And if you have extra to spare, of course you should share regardless of desert. But sometimes desert has to at least be a factor. Imagine the ant and grasshopper scenario with two grasshoppers. One, like in the original, spends the summer messing around and just doesn’t gather any food. The other gathers food, but there’s a storm and his food stores are destroyed. The ant doesn’t have enough extra food for both. Who does he share with? The second grasshopper knows how to gather food for himself, and the next year he will probably not need charity again, provided he survives the winter. And giving the food to the more “deserving” grasshopper sends the message that hard work is valued and rewarded, which hopefully encourages the rest of the grasshopper community to follow his example. Certainly on an individual level, and maybe even for a government, there are always more people in need than there are resources, so you want to distribute your charity in a way that will do the most good and result in less need for charity in the future. So there’s my sermon for the week.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's my sermon: When it comes to distributing life-saving resources among the equally needy when there isn't enough for everyone, flip a coin. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and. . . ."
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sure, but just because all men are created equal doesn't mean that their actions have no consequences.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm perfectly happy to have hard workers earn more money (although I'm less enthusiastic about huge inheritances), but when it comes to the basics of life, such as food and shelter, you shouldn't have to "deserve" them.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And in a world where food and shelter simply exist, that's perfectly true. But we do have to work in order to gain food and shelter. We're past a society where everyone has to farm the land and build their own houses, but somewhere out there, people are still farming and building houses. The whole foundation of a community is that you can do whatever you're most skilled at, but you have to contribute something to the common good, and in exchange you benefit from everyone else's services, including the provision of food and shelter. Allowances are made for people who are unable to contribute, but only to a point. If someone simply chooses not to contribute to society, then they are choosing not to be a part of society, and thus have to be self-supporting.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, lots of people thrive without working or contributing--because they come from rich families. As for non-contributing people who are not rich, I think that the richest country in the world should not let them starve.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, people with large inheritances get by without contributing. Which I don't necessarily approve of, but I guess the general idea is that their parents/ancestors contributed several people's worth. I don't think that defeats my point. And as I already said, we certainly shouldn't let people starve whenever possible, but we can't help everyone. Which brings this back to the original point. Those who contribute should be a priority in the distribution of aid.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Many large fortunes come about through luck (such as striking oil on one's land) or worse, rather than through hard work. And a rich country like the USA probably can help almost everyone, at least to some degree, although some priorities have to be set. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree over whether these priorities should be set according to who "deserves" help.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably. Arguing like this doesn't tend to change anyone's mind. I just think it's a little simplistic to say that someone who is "down on their luck" should receive the same treatment as someone who has squandered every opportunity, based on the axiom that everyone is equal.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And I think it is more than a little simplistic to think anyone can decide who is hardworking enough to "deserve" basic necessities like food and shelter. I also think we're not getting anywhere with this debate, so I'm retiring from it. Liberals & libertarians shouldn't expect to convince one another; they start from different moral premises.
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(fyi I do define myself as politically liberal. I believe in social justice, and I believe in welfare programs. I just also believe that individual responsibility should play a part. And it seems like you think that it shouldn't, where the basic necessities of life are concerned. Which is understandable, I guess, but like you say, if that's your starting assumption, it's hard to formulate any kind of counterargument.}
Ohlala8 (Ohlala8)
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Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, sorry for beating this dead horse for so long. I'm a philosophy major - it's in my blood.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm a philosophy teacher; so imagine what my blood is like!!

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