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Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I'd carried an umbrella, I'd have been arrested.
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 537
Registered: 5-2010
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it raining?
If you'd carried a cane, would you have been arrested?
Would you have been arrested for a crime you actually committed, regardless of umbrella?
A crime you would have committed only on the condition of carrying an umbrella?
A crime you didn't commit?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was it raining? yes
If you'd carried a cane, would you have been arrested? no
Would you have been arrested for a crime you actually committed, regardless of umbrella? no
A crime you would have committed only on the condition of carrying an umbrella? no
A crime you didn't commit? yes
Biograd (Biograd)
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Post Number: 936
Registered: 6-2008
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were those who would have arrested you, looking for a suspect described only by his carrying an umbrella in a particular place? Would they have in fact been searching for a suspect at the time they saw you with the umbrella? or would seeing you with the umbrella have been the thing that made them think a crime was committed?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 2808
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Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Longshot this but is Georgi Markov relevant?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1012
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were those who would have arrested you, looking for a suspect described only by his carrying an umbrella in a particular place? no Would they have in fact been searching for a suspect at the time they saw you with the umbrella? no or would seeing you with the umbrella have been the thing that made them think a crime was committed? no

Longshot this but is Georgi Markov relevant? no
It_so_happened (It_so_happened)
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Post Number: 541
Registered: 5-2010
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is being dry what would have resulted in arrest?
Is being wet what prevented your arrest?
If it had not been raining, and you were without an umbrella, would you have been arrested?
If it had not been raining, and yet you were still carrying an umbrella, would you have been arrested?
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 3641
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was an umbrella used in the crime? Was the crime stealing an umbrella? Other theft?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Post Number: 4618
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Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 5:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a true story? Is it only possible in a fictitious setting? Any archaic laws relevant? Would the umbrella have been seen as a weapon? Type of umbrella relevant? Would the umbrella have been in use? Or just carried unfurled?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1013
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is being dry what would have resulted in arrest? no
Is being wet what prevented your arrest? no
If it had not been raining, and you were without an umbrella, would you have been arrested? yes
If it had not been raining, and yet you were still carrying an umbrella, would you have been arrested? yes
Was an umbrella used in the crime? FA, but no Was the crime stealing an umbrella? FA, but no Other theft? FA, but yes
Is this a true story? yes Is it only possible in a fictitious setting? no Any archaic laws relevant? no Would the umbrella have been seen as a weapon? no Type of umbrella relevant? no Would the umbrella have been in use? yes Or just carried unfurled? no
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 3648
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2010 - 7:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a crime committed at all? And yet they would have thought you had committed one, had you been carrying the umbrella? Had the police received a tip about a potential crime? Potential theft?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1014
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was a crime committed at all? no And yet they would have thought you had committed one, had you been carrying the umbrella? yes Had the police received a tip about a potential crime? no Potential theft? no
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1071
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Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

relevant where you were at the time? inside? outside? town? countryside?
were you walking into a building? out of one? were you stationary? running? walking?
did you say anything relevant? did anyone say anything relevant to you?

so the relevant thing which keeps you from being arrested is the combination of raining plus no umbrella? you said you would have been arrested if it were not raining? with or without umbrella?

so we need to find out why the police might have thought you'd committed a crime? and why, by not carrying an umbrella in the rain they did not think you had? or was it that they just didn't notice you? or thought someone else had committed a crime? or didn't think a crime had been comitted at all? or that you had done something but it was not a crime? was justified in some way?

is any person other than you and the police relevant?
were the police particularly looking for criminals? looking out for someone comitting a certain type of crime?

to be arrested would you have been holding an open umbrella in the normal way? would the holding of the umbrella have stopped you from doing something else that might have made it seem you had not committed a crime?

the theft they might have arrested you for: of money? shoplifting? of a car? pickpocketing?
Viniter (Viniter)
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Post Number: 130
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Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I was on the same place at the same time with umbrella, would I have been arrested? If there were 100 people with umbrellas would all of them have been arrested?

Was it a place where you were restricted to carry and umbrella? Was some kind of event going on? Speech/performance of important/famous person... inauguration of president maybe?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

relevant where you were at the time? yes inside? this one outside? town? countryside?
were you walking into a building? out of one? this is closest were you stationary? more or less running? at my time of life? no walking more or less
did you say anything relevant? did anyone say anything relevant to you? well, there was a conversation during which I was accused of an attempted crime

so the relevant thing which keeps you from being arrested is the combination of raining plus no umbrella? in effect, yes you said you would have been arrested if it were not raining? I would with or without umbrella? indeed

so we need to find out why the police might have thought you'd committed a crime? well, the police were never actually involved and why, by not carrying an umbrella in the rain they did not think you had? no or was it that they just didn't notice you? no or thought someone else had committed a crime? no or didn't think a crime had been committed at all? no or that you had done something but it was not a crime? no was justified in some way? oh, everything everyone did on this occasion was entirely justified

is any person other than you and the police relevant? again, the police were not actually on the scene, but no one is relevant apart from me and those who would have summoned the police to arrest me had I carried an umbrella
were the police particularly looking for criminals? I expect so, which is why they would not have been overjoyed to be summoned to arrest me, who was at least on this occasion entirely innocent looking out for someone committing a certain type of crime? oh, every type of crime - in Shepherd's Bush, the police are not exactly idle

to be arrested would you have been holding an open umbrella in the normal way? yes would the holding of the umbrella have stopped you from doing something else that might have made it seem you had not committed a crime? no

the theft they might have arrested you for: of money? shoplifting? this one - now then... of a car? pickpocketing?

If I was on the same place at the same time with umbrella, would I have been arrested? if you found yourself in the same circumstances as I did, yes If there were 100 people with umbrellas would all of them have been arrested? ditto, but that is a vanishingly unlikely state of affairs

Was it a place where you were restricted to carry and umbrella? no Was some kind of event going on? Speech/performance of important/famous person... inauguration of president maybe? nothing at all like this - the circumstances in which I would have been arrested but for my lack of umbrella were the most ordinary and commonplace in the world
Balin (Balin)
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Username: Balin

Post Number: 3710
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the specific building relevant? Is it a public building? A bar? Restaurant? Grocery store?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the specific building relevant? yes Is it a public building? A bar? Restaurant? Grocery store? this is closest
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3714
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it another type of store? Hardware store? Umbrella store? Clothing store? Walmart-type superstore? Convenience store? General store?
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Post Number: 1074
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so you were leaving a store in the rain? and you would have been accused of shoplifting if - you had been carrying an umbrella and/or it wasn't raining?
were you taking something out of the store without paying/

were you actually taking an item from the shop to the door to see it in daylight (for example to check it's true colour) and, if you had been carrying an umbrella it would have looked as though you intended to leave the store without paying? but because it was raining, and you didn't have an umbrella, it would be much less likely that you were actually intending to leave the store? had you in fact left your umbrella in the store? to show that you were not actually intending to leave with the item?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 2809
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Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the shop actually sell Umbrellas?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1018
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it another type of store? Hardware store? Umbrella store? Clothing store? Walmart-type superstore? Convenience store? this one General store?

so you were leaving a store in the rain? not quite, but that was my intention and you would have been accused of shoplifting if - you had been carrying an umbrella and/or it wasn't raining? I would have been accused of shoplifting if either it had not been raining or I had carried my umbrella
were you taking something out of the store without paying? no

were you actually taking an item from the shop to the door to see it in daylight (for example to check it's true colour) and, if you had been carrying an umbrella it would have looked as though you intended to leave the store without paying? no but because it was raining, and you didn't have an umbrella, it would be much less likely that you were actually intending to leave the store? no had you in fact left your umbrella in the store? no - I had left it at home to show that you were not actually intending to leave with the item? no

Did the shop actually sell Umbrellas? no
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Username: Mattiel

Post Number: 251
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant how long have you been inside the store?
Was it raining when you had entered the store? Relevant?
Did you or your clothes get wet because of the rain at any moment? Alternatively, were your shoes dirty because of the rain, or of some rainy water puddles? If so, before you entered the store? After? Relevant all this?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you put a plastic bag on your head?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 2813
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Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2010 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Inspired guess Woodworm, maybe it was a newspaper.
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1019
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 1:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant how long have you been inside the store? no, but I had been there about two minutes, as usual
Was it raining when you had entered the store? yes Relevant? yes
Did you or your clothes get wet because of the rain at any moment? yes Alternatively, were your shoes dirty because of the rain, or of some rainy water puddles? no If so, before you entered the store? no After? b{no} Relevant all this? no

Did you put a plastic bag on your head? I was shopping, not trying to commit suicide, although I confess that the former has on more than one occasion encouraged me to contemplate the latter

Inspired guess Woodworm, maybe it was a newspaper. maybe what was a newspaper?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3808
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe Peter means "did you put a newspaper over your head" - did you? If so, is the newspaper relevant? Did you use any means other than an umbrella to keep dry? Relevant exactly what?
Biograd (Biograd)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the relevant factor in your hypothetical arrest your wet clothing?

I'm thinking that maybe someone was shoplifting something wet/filled with water. If it had not been raining, it would have been hard to explain wet clothes unless you handled something wet in the store, and therefore you would have been a suspect. And similarly, had you carried an umbrella, your clothes should have been kept dry, so wet clothes would again indicate you had handled something wet in the store.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Taking one step back, did "the others" accuse you of shoplifting? And you could prove your innocence thanks to the fact that you had no umbrella?
Or they didn't even accuse you, because they had already noticed you had no umbrella?

If they did accuse you, was it because of some particular characteristics you had? Because of some physical/appearance reason? Maybe being wet? Because of the way you behaved?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 12:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe Peter means "did you put a newspaper over your head" - did you? I did not If so, is the newspaper relevant? no Did you use any means other than an umbrella to keep dry? no Relevant exactly what? no

Was the relevant factor in your hypothetical arrest your wet clothing? no

I'm thinking that maybe someone was shoplifting something wet/filled with water. If it had not been raining, it would have been hard to explain wet clothes unless you handled something wet in the store, and therefore you would have been a suspect. And similarly, had you carried an umbrella, your clothes should have been kept dry, so wet clothes would again indicate you had handled something wet in the store. nobody was actually shoplifting anything

Taking one step back, did "the others" accuse you of shoplifting? yes And you could prove your innocence thanks to the fact that you had no umbrella? yes, indeed
Or they didn't even accuse you, because they had already noticed you had no umbrella? no

If they did accuse you, was it because of some particular characteristics you had? no Because of some physical/appearance reason? no Maybe being wet? no, but... Because of the way you behaved? no
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3841
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 2:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they realize that because you were wet, you could not be able to conceal anything? Is the item/items they accused you of shoplifting relevant? Was the store indoors? (Sounds like a dumb question, but I know some stores without roofs - just asking.)

And just a note - you have a puzzle in Limbo you may want to rescue....
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1021
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they realize that because you were wet, you could not be able to conceal anything? no Is the item/items they accused you of shoplifting relevant? well, it was a magazine - a copy of New Scientist, in fact Was the store indoors? yes (Sounds like a dumb question, but I know some stores without roofs - just asking.)
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3868
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you accused of stealing that magazine from that store? Is the important factor that you were wet? Did you point out that you would have had to conceal a magazine under wet clothes? Which would have ruined the magazine and made the shoplifting pointless?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Post Number: 1022
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Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Were you accused of stealing that magazine from that store? yes Is the important factor that you were wet? no, but... Did you point out that you would have had to conceal a magazine under wet clothes? no Which would have ruined the magazine it would not have done - it was not raining very hard and made the shoplifting pointless?
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they think that a stolen magazine could be hidden inside a closed umbrella?
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2010 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you actually have a copy of this magazine with you? Before entering the store? And they accused you to have stolen it from their store?

If so, was your copy wet? dry? How were you carrying it, in your pockets? In a bag? Hidden under your clothes (maybe to avoid it getting wet)?
Woubit (Woubit)
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Username: Woubit

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 5:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they think that a stolen magazine could be hidden inside a closed umbrella? well, thinking wasn't the sort of thing they went in for generally, but help is at hand...

Did you actually have a copy of this magazine with you? indeed I did Before entering the store? yes And they accused you to have stolen it from their store? exactly and precisely so

If so, was your copy wet? this one dry? How were you carrying it, in your pockets? In a bag? Hidden under your clothes (maybe to avoid it getting wet)? none of the above, but that will do...

***** SPOILER *****

The strange thing about all this was that I went into what I guess is called a "convenience store" next to my local Underground (subway) station as I have done almost every day for the last eight years. I bought my usual sandwich, I trotted up as usual to the counter to pay for it, and the bloke behind the counter demanded another 3 and change for the copy of New Scientist that I was also carrying.

In vain did I protest the truth: that I had the magazine before I entered the store. Our man was convinced that I had nicked it from their stock and was trying to avoid paying for it. He was on the point of telephoning for the police when a thought struck me.

"Look", I said, "it's raining outside. And this magazine is wet". (It was, for the downpour had been sudden, and I carried nothing to shield either me or my possessions from its blast.) "Now, how did it get wet if I'd just pinched it from your shelves?"

To his lasting credit, the bloke (who was newly employed at the store and did not, as its other employees did, know me by sight) reacted both speedily and graciously - I was treated to a free sandwich. But if I'd carried an umbrella, I'd have been arrested.

Well done Mattiel, well done the bloke at Budgens.
Mattiel (Mattiel)
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Post Number: 294
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Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice puzzle!
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 3957
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Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Almost turned into an "inconvenience store," I see...excellent puzzle, and excellent quick thinking on your part!
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2010
Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2010 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yay for free sandwich, hurrah for woubit puzzles! sorry to see I came across this puzzle so late, but free sandwiches are always good.

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