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Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Too french for being dutch. Too dead for being american.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 541
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi and welcome!

Was someone too french for being dutch? Was someone too dead for being american? If so, is he1=he2? Are they HAM?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 2
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was something too french for being dutch?
YES (if question is rephrased as above)
Was someone too dead for being american?
YES
If so, is he1=he2?
NO
Are they HAM?
Explain HAM (sorry I am new to this)
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 542
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HAM = Human? Adult? Male?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 543
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, it was something (as opposed to someone) too french for being dutch? And someone too dead for being American? Time relevant? Location? Is this a real story? FYOI? FSEI?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HAM = Human? Adult? Male?
YES regarding "he2"
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 544
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Title relevant? The profession of he2? (let's name him Bob, ok?)His age? Did someone die? Did Bob die? Sport relevant?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 4
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, it was something (as opposed to someone) too french for being dutch?
YES
And someone too dead for being American?
YES
Time relevant?
YES
Location?
YES
Is this a real story?
NO (assuming you mean "non-fictional") he2
YES in reference to it

FYOI?
NO
FSEI?
YES (assuming FSEI means "from someone else imaginition")
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Title relevant?
YES
The profession of he2? (let's name him Bob, ok?)
NO (Bob OK)
His age?
NO
Did someone die?
YES
Did Bob die?
YOPE
Sport relevant?
NO
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 546
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Time relevant: specific era? specific year? month? day? season? time of the day? Did this happen in [LTPF list of centuries]?

Location: country relevant? did this happen in Europe? North America? South America? Asia? Africa? Australia and Oceania? Is the type of location relevant? (in the mountains as opposed to the sea shore, for example)
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 547
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarifying the YOPE to Bob's death: Did he actually die in the sense that he lost his life? Is this relevant? Was he through some sort of near-death experiences? Is Bob a living person? Or was he, at some point in time? A character in a movie? A character in a computer game?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Time relevant: specific era? specific year? month? day? season? time of the day? Did this happen in [LTPF list of centuries]?
NO (Hint: above aspects of time not relevant - time somewhat relevant in another sense)
Location: country relevant?
YES
did this happen in Europe?
YES
North America?
YES
South America? Asia? Africa? Australia and Oceania?
NO
Is the type of location relevant? (in the mountains as opposed to the sea shore, for example)
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 7
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarifying the YOPE to Bob's death: Did he actually die in the sense that he lost his life?
YES
Is this relevant?
YES
Was he through some sort of near-death experiences?
NO (but eg. since he died he was also near dying)
Is Bob a living person?
YOPE (in the fictional space established by answer below)
Or was he, at some point in time?
YES
A character in a movie?
YES
A character in a computer game?
NO
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 548
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attempting an early recap here: Something was too French for being Dutch. Someone (Bob, HAM and a character in a movie) is too dead for being American. Bob died. Time is relevant in a certain sense. Country is relevant. This happened in North America and Europe. Correct so far?

Was Bob killed? Did he commit suicide? Are there other persons relevant? Are wars relevant? The 'it' that is too french to be dutch: is it something tangible? If so: larger than a golf ball? larger than a microwave? a room? a building? Is the name of 'it' relevant? Its colour? The part that happened in North America was in: Canada? the US? Mexico? The part that happened in Europe -- please insert here the [LTPF list of European countries]?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attempting an early recap here: Something was too French for being Dutch. Someone (Bob, HAM and a character in a movie) is too dead for being American. Bob died. Time is relevant in a certain sense. Country is relevant. This happened in North America and Europe. Correct so far?
YES

Was Bob killed?
YES
Did he commit suicide?
YOPE
Are there other persons relevant?
YESISH
Are wars relevant?
NO
The 'it' that is too french to be dutch: is it something tangible?
NO
If so: larger than a golf ball? larger than a microwave? a room? a building?
NR
Is the name of 'it' relevant?
YES
Its colour?
NR
The part that happened in North America was in: the US?
YES
Mexico? The part that happened in Europe -- please insert here the [LTPF list of European countries]?
France
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 9
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Attempting an early recap here: Something was too French for being Dutch. Someone (Bob, HAM and a character in a movie) is too dead for being American. Bob died. Time is relevant in a certain sense. Country is relevant. This happened in North America and Europe. Correct so far?
YES (but important hint and clarification - BOB did both die and not die)
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 549
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Religion relevant? Time travel? Is the actor playing Bob in the movie relevant? Maybe because the character dies in the movie while obviously the actor is still alive?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Religion relevant?
NO
Time travel?
NO
Is the actor playing Bob in the movie relevant?
YOPE
Maybe because the character dies in the movie while obviously the actor is still alive?
NO (not at all relevant)
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5779
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die in a dream? Did he die but was then revived? Did Bob die in France? In the US? Alternate universes relevant? Dream sequences relevant?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die in a dream?
NO
Did he die but was then revived?
NO
Did Bob die in France?
YES
In the US?
NO
Alternate universes relevant?
NO
Dream sequences relevant?
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Post Number: 12
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alternate universes relevant?
NO (putting in a vague hint here: Alternate Corporate Cultures are relevant though - maybe that could vaguely be regarded as an "Alternate Universe")
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5789
Registered: 4-2010
Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die and stay dead? Is this a movie-inside-a-movie?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die and stay dead?
YOPE
Is this a movie-inside-a-movie?
NO
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5809
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the afterlife relevant? Reincarnation? Heaven? Hell? Ghosts? Zombies?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2010 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the afterlife relevant? Reincarnation? Heaven? Hell? Ghosts? Zombies?
NO to all
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that was "too French for being Dutch" - was that a person? Do the two halves of the puzzle statement refer to the same thing? The same person?
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5877
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that was "too French for being Dutch" - was that a person? Do the two halves of the puzzle statement refer to the same thing? The same person?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The thing that was "too French for being Dutch" - was that a person?
NO
Do the two halves of the puzzle statement refer to the same thing? YES
The same person?
NO (eg. This "same thing" is not a person)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any animals relevant? Is there more than one person involved? If so, 2? 3? [LTPF list of integers]? H? A? M?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any animals relevant?
NO
Is there more than one person involved?
YES (the specificness of this is more releveant in BOBs part of the puzzle than in the french/dutch part - but still - both parts refer to the same main thing of the puzzle)
If so, 2? 3? [LTPF list of integers]?
four main persons four secondary persons and more people where their numbers are not that relevant
H? A? M?
Four adult males main characters, four adult females secondary characters
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP SO FAR:
Something was too French for being Dutch and "Bob" was too dead for being American (US)
"As Leeman" is relevant to main puzzle
"Time" and "Location" are relevant
"Too French for being Dutch" is a true story
"Bob" is a fictional character occuring in (existing) cinema
The cinema part involves 4 male main characters and four female secondary characters.
It happened in France and the US
"Bob" both died (France) and did not die (US).
When "Bob" did die he was killed but also comitted suicide
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5923
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die from assisted suicide? Euthanasia? Was the cause of death blunt force? Sharp force? Strangulation? Poisoning? Electrocution? Cardiac arrest? Burning to death?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we looking for a single French film? Perhaps one in which a character dies in the French version but not in the US version? And perhaps also one in which some detail is de-Gallicized for the Dutch market? Something along these lines? Is it anything to do with the translation of the title?

La Grande Bouffe?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is 'As Leeman' an anagram? Of a French phrase?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Bob die from assisted suicide?
Yesish (a matter of interpretation by the audience to the film)
Euthanasia?
NO
Was the cause of death blunt force? Sharp force? Strangulation? Poisoning? Electrocution? Cardiac arrest? Burning to death?
NO to all
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are we looking for a single French film?
Noish
Perhaps one in which a character dies in the French version but not in the US version?
Yes! (but not really a French version)
And perhaps also one in which some detail is de-Gallicized for the Dutch market?
No
Something along these lines?
Yesish
Is it anything to do with the translation of the title?
No
La Grande Bouffe?
No
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is 'As Leeman' an anagram? Of a French phrase?
No to both
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 5937
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Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob shot? Did he drown?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob shot? Did he drown?
No to both
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die from a long-term illness? Was he executed?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 6:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he die from a long-term illness? Was he executed?
No to both
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he suffocated? Did he die of smoke inhalation?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he suffocated?
YES!
Did he die of smoke inhalation?
NO
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he suffocated with a pillow? A plastic bag?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he suffocated with a pillow? A plastic bag?
NO to both
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 593
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The French/Dutch "it": is it an idea? an emotion? a sentiment? a color? a state of mind? a concept? a god? a name? Is it really Dutch, but sounds more like French? Or is it French, but someone thinks or want someone else to think that it is Dutch?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

new recap/clarifications on where we are at the moment in the puzzle
- the skeletal form of the second phrase in the puzzle is solved "Too dead for being American"
- An American remake of a film is changed in content so that the main character does not die.
To solve the rest of the puzzle (which is a real story - as the film(s) are existing (eg FSOEI)) the general storyline of the film(s) and the details of "BOB"s death might be one way to go. "Bob" was killed and died of suffocation and it might be seen as a suicide. There were more characters of importance in the film(s) - another male adult (in both films) and two other adult women (in both films). The title "As Leeman" and how that relates to the puzzle is also unresolved so far
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Made a clumsy and misleading writing in previous post "was killed and died of suffucation" should instead read "was killed by suffocation"
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carbon monoxide poisoning relevant? Sitting in a car with the gas filling up an enclosed garage?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 595
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You missed my questions
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The French/Dutch "it": is it an idea? an emotion? a sentiment? a color? a state of mind? a concept? a god? a name?
No to all
Is it really Dutch, but sounds more like French?
YES!
Or is it French, but someone thinks or want someone else to think that it is Dutch?
NOISH
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the pronunciation or spelling of a certain word relevant?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carbon monoxide poisoning relevant?
NO
Sitting in a car with the gas filling up an enclosed garage?
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the pronunciation or spelling of a certain word relevant?
YES (but question should actually be rephrased not to make WA - at least remove "of a certain word" and go broader in the assumption)
Balin (Balin)
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Post Number: 6120
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is pronunciation relevant? Spelling? Of the title?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is pronunciation relevant?
YESISH (hope it is not my fault that you seem to miss the obvious line of thought that would make the YESHISH into YES )
Spelling?
YESHIS
Of the title?
NO
Balin (Balin)
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It's not...I tend to miss obvious stuff a lot =P

Pronunciation/spelling of something in French? Dutch? English? Of Bob's name?
Balin (Balin)
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Of the word "suffocation"?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Pronunciation/spelling of something in French?
YES!
Dutch?
YES!
English?
NO
Of Bob's name?
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Of the word "suffocation"?
NOISH (too particular - somewhat WA)
Mosson (Mosson)
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A vague but also such an interesting hint that I cannot withold it:
It is much easier for a Scandinavian, Dutch, British or Portugese citizen to solve this part of the problem than it is for an American, German, French, Italian or Spanish citizen (other nations Iīm not that sure about how easy/hard it might be but it differs between countries)
Mosson (Mosson)
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Also Romanians, Serb, Croat, Macedonian, Greek and Turkish citizen should have less problem than other europeans solving it (also harder for Swiss, Austrian, Czech, Hungarian, Belgian and Slovak citizens)
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the film censored/Bowdlerised in some countries but not in others?

Does it have something to do with the American penchant for happy endings?

I'm assuming that the difficulty has nothing to do with language, then? As a Brit, I only have a little French and a smattering of American ...

Is it a Dutch film? A Scandinavian film? A British film?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Was the film censored/Bowdlerised in some countries but not in others?
Donīt really know but NR
Does it have something to do with the American penchant for happy endings?
YES
I'm assuming that the difficulty has nothing to do with language, then?
NO (it has everything to do with language)
As a Brit, I only have a little French and a smattering of American ...

Is it a Dutch film?
YES!
A Scandinavian film?
NO
A British film?
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Too not be confusing or misleading:
Does it have something to do with the American penchant for happy endings?
YES (the "Too dead for being American" part)
I'm assuming that the difficulty has nothing to do with language, then?
NO (it has everything to do with language (the "Too French for being Dutch" part))
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Is it some phonetic rule relevant? That is harder for some to grasp, while it is easier for others? In your hint above, is it language that matters?

Hmmm... long shot... does it have anything to do with subtitling movies, as opposed to doubling them?
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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@ Rbruma ... well, we have a Brit and a Romanian on the case. Perhaps we should drag that Czech guy out of his bear?

Lijmen? Translated as 'Leeman'?

Oh heck, this is hard!

Would it help to do a bit of brute-force guessing of Dutch films? Or is there a more subtle way of approaching it?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is it some phonetic rule relevant?
NOISH
That is harder for some to grasp, while it is easier for others?
NO if you are referring to the original puzzle YES if you refer to the hint
In your hint above, is it language that matters?
YES

Hmmm... long shot... does it have anything to do with subtitling movies, as opposed to doubling them?
YES! Brilliant assumption - but remember this was a hint that almost became a puzzle within the puzzle and the hint is still not used on the main puzzle - I will rephrase the hint more bluntly since you solved it:
Why would dubbing vs. subtitling make a difference in how easy it is to grasp the "Too French for Being Dutch"?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Lijmen? Translated as 'Leeman'?
NR
Oh heck, this is hard!
Clarification: "As Leeman"(not solved) refers to "too dead for being American" (statement solved) - but no title yet that could help with the first statement "Too French for being Dutch"

Would it help to do a bit of brute-force guessing of Dutch films?
Maybe - It would most likely lead to the puzzle being solved if the correct title was found but not as fun if "brute force googling/listing was used"
Or is there a more subtle way of approaching it?
Yes - and they are not that subtle - definately - It would also be more fun if the three parts was solved and then a moviebuff would have a good chance to provide the title - or I would give you the reasoning and facts
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As a Romanian, always accustomed to subtitling and totally unaccustomed to dubbing...

Is it a Dutch film being dubbed in French? Is it by any chance a film in Dutch, but from Belgium as opposed to the Netherlands? (Not so brilliant assumption anymore, but it's my best at 01:30 AM :=) On the same idea, are different names of places relevant (Charleroi vs. Tchalerwe, e.g)?

Is the pronounciation of some name that it is relevant? Is it an accent relevant, that may confuse regions?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Oh heck, this is hard!

Since "Too dead for being American" is structurally solved "As Leeman" is not neceesary to solve "Too French for being Dutch" - but it would be nice if someone gave "Leeman" a solution also
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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@Woodworm -- by all means -- and then we split it

Is something about death spelled / pronounced differently in the languages used? So that, for example, one can understand that Bob was killed, while another that he committed suicide?

My Dutch is a bit rusty...
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Leeman: layman? Lake Geneva? Is it a name?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is it a Dutch film being dubbed in French?
NO or NR (but this film is dubbed in France like any other film is dubbed when screened in France)
Is it by any chance a film in Dutch,
YESISH
but from Belgium as opposed to the Netherlands?
NO
(Not so brilliant assumption anymore, but it's my best at 01:30 AM :=)
The direction is actually good
On the same idea, are different names of places relevant (Charleroi vs. Tchalerwe, e.g)?
NO

Is the pronounciation of some name that it is relevant? Is it an accent relevant, that may confuse regions?
NO but I have to say that you are so close but being too particular
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is something about death spelled / pronounced differently in the languages used?
YES but you are too particular
So that, for example, one can understand that Bob was killed, while another that he committed suicide?
NO and also NR
My Dutch is a bit rusty...
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A Brit and a Romanian...don't forget the American.

Are there particular accents in French words relevant? In Dutch words? Do Dutch words sound the similar to French words, but are spelled completely different? The other way around?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Leeman: layman?
NO
Lake Geneva?
NO
Is it a name?
YES!
Balin (Balin)
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Leeman: Lehman? Les mains? (From my rusty high school french)?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Are there particular accents in French words relevant?
NR
In Dutch words?
NR
Do Dutch words sound the similar to French words, but are spelled completely different?
NR
The other way around?
NR
Hint to all involved: simplify the questions about language
Mosson (Mosson)
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Leeman: Lehman? Les mains? (From my rusty high school french)?
Leeman is established as being A NAME
Balin (Balin)
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A name...is the name Lee? Is it a man's name?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Hint to all involved: simplify the questions about language
I feel one of the most obvious questions have not been asked yet
Balin (Balin)
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Relevant how widespread the language is? Is it simply easier to understand the French when read, rather than spoken? The other way round?
Mosson (Mosson)
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A name...is the name Lee?
NO (the name is Leeman).
Is it a man's name?
YES.
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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We'll split the Czech in three, Matt. One last question for tonight, at 2:00 AM:

Any reference to Abraham Leeman?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Relevant how widespread the language is?
NR
Is it simply easier to understand the French when read, rather than spoken?
NR
The other way round?
NR
Balin (Balin)
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So you'll Czech back in later, then?

Is the man related to the film? Director? Producer? Actor?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Any reference to Abraham Leeman?
NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is the man related to the film?
NO
Director?
Producer?
NO
Actor?
NO
Tip: Ponder the EXACT phrasing: "Too dead for being American" relates to "As Leeman"
Balin (Balin)
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Is Leeman dead? Is he the one we've been calling "Bob"?
Mosson (Mosson)
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RECAP SO FAR:
A man named Leeman is "as" a character that dies (by suffocation that could be seen as suicide) in a Dutch movie that was later remade In the US where the same character did not die because Americans would want a "happier ending" - In both versions there is additional main characters (two women and and a man in each version). The Movie is "Too french for being dutch" this has something to do with language and this aspect is easier to grasp if you live in a country that donīt dub films (but uses subtitles instead). We are a bit stuck at what is the language problem and why it is "too"... and also "who is Leeman?"
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is Leeman dead?
YES and YES
Is he the one we've been calling "Bob"?
NO (but he is "as BOB")
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is Leeman dead?
Sorry made a mistake - in the logic I have used earlier the answer should of course be YES and YES and NO
Mosson (Mosson)
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IMPROVED RECAP (forgot a few things) SO FAR:
A man named Leeman who has died, died and not died is "as" a character that dies (by being killed by suffocation that could be seen as suicide - the exact fashion this happens is not concluded but would make the film more identifiable) in a Dutch movie that was later remade In the US where the same character did not die because Americans would want a "happier ending" - In both versions there is additional main characters (two women and and a man in each version). The Movie is "Too french for being dutch" this has something to do with language and this aspect is easier to grasp if you live in a country that donīt dub films (but uses subtitles instead). We are a bit stuck at what is the language problem and why it is "too"... and also "who is Leeman?"
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 12:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the language problem auditory? Visual?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Is the language problem auditory?
YES
Visual?
NO
Hint: We seem to be stuck on an assumption that the language problem is a problem for the audience perception or internally in the film structure.
The case though is that the problem concerning language is actually outside of the film (even if it originates within the film - but is not a problem there) and also really outside of the audience but it still affects the fate of the film
Balin (Balin)
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Does a certain Dutch word sound like a certain French word? And that could cause misunderstanding?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Does a certain Dutch word sound like a certain French word? And that could cause misunderstanding?
NO
Perhaps TOO MUCH LATERAL THINKING GOING ON
Hint: "Too MUCH French for beeing Dutch" in relation to the movie as such
Balin (Balin)
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It was a Dutch film, correct? Was the film spoken in Dutch? In French?
Mosson (Mosson)
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It was a Dutch film, correct?
YES
Was the film spoken in Dutch?
YES
In French?
YES
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Was the film spoken in Dutch and dubbed in French?. Was a character in the movie pronounced in a way in the original and another way in the French dubbing? Was the name of the character Leeman? And sounded like Le Mans in French? Is any character in the original movie / American version named Leeman?

Is it correct to assume that there are two things left to determine:

1. Relation between 'Too dead to be american' to 'As Leeman'?
2. The significance of 'Too much French for being Dutch' in relation to the movie?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Was the film spoken in Dutch and dubbed in French?
NO (unless you saw it in France where all films are dubbed to French).
Was a character in the movie pronounced in a way in the original and another way in the French dubbing?
NO or more correctly NR (since in France I assume this could have been the fact - anyway not relevant)
Was the name of the character Leeman?
YESISH (YES if phrased "was a name of a character Leeman")
And sounded like Le Mans in French? Is any character in the original movie / American version named Leeman?
NO to both

Is it correct to assume that there are two things left to determine:

1. Relation between 'Too dead to be american' to 'As Leeman'?
YES!
2. The significance of 'Too much French for being Dutch' in relation to the movie?
YES!!
Balin (Balin)
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Was the movie spoken partially in Dutch and partially in French? Is the language of the character Leeman relevant?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Was the movie spoken partially in Dutch and partially in French?
YES!!
Is the language of the character Leeman relevant?
NO (Leeman issue only realates to "Too dead for being American")
Balin (Balin)
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Does Leeman die in the film? Is Leeman Dutch? French? American? Relevant?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Does Leeman die in the film?
YOPE
Is Leeman Dutch?
NO
French?
NO
American?
YOPE
Relevant?
YES
Balin (Balin)
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In the version where Bob lives, does Leeman die?
In the version where Bob dies, does Leeman live?
Mosson (Mosson)
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In the version where Bob lives, does Leeman die?
In the version where Bob dies, does Leeman live?

In the French version "BOB" dies as Leeman does in a UK version
In the US version "BOB" does not die as "Leeman" also do not die in his US version
Consider "As Leeman" solved - I will present "BOB" and Leeman in a later spoiler - just "Too French for being Dutch" to solve.
The movie with "BOB" had that - in what way was that significant? - Unless anyone wants to keep on trying Iīll give the full spoiler tomorrow
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the movie have a narrator? Was the dialogue in French? Dutch? If there was a narrator, was the narration in French? Dutch?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did the movie have a narrator?
NO
Was the dialogue in French?
YES
Dutch?
YES
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, October 11, 2010 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob's dialogue all in French? Dutch? A mix?
Was Leeman's dialogue all in French? Dutch? A mix?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Bob's dialogue all in French? Dutch? A mix?
YES it was a mix
Was Leeman's dialogue all in French? Dutch? A mix?
NR Leeman relates to "Too dead for being american" Leeman DO NOT relate to "Too French for Being Dutch"
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Leeman also die in the original but not when the movie was brought to the US?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Leeman also die in the original but not when the movie was brought to the US?
YES (movie is not correct format in Leemanīs case though)
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the movie based off a TV show? Video game? Book? Relevant? Did Leeman die in the original TV show/book/etc, but not in the movie?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the movie based off a TV show? Video game? Book? Relevant? Did Leeman die in the original TV show/book/etc, but not in the movie?
YES (Leeman (named in the show in honor of a real Leeman) died in the UK TV-show - the character based on Leeman in the US TV-show did not die (This is the solution to the "As Leeman" part of the puzzle)
Woodworm (Woodworm)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leeman was the name of the man who dies in 'The Kipper and the Corpse', a famous episode of Fawlty Towers. I didn't guess this earlier, as I thought I was looking for a Dutch film, and I'm pretty sure that this doesn't exist in a death-free US version.

So this is the Leeman in question? Or anything to do with the real Andrew Leeman, John Cleese's friend who was the inspiration for the episode?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leeman was the name of the man who dies in 'The Kipper and the Corpse', a famous episode of Fawlty Towers. I didn't guess this earlier, as I thought I was looking for a Dutch film, and I'm pretty sure that this doesn't exist in a death-free US version.

So this is the Leeman in question? Or anything to do with the real Andrew Leeman, John Cleese's friend who was the inspiration for the episode?

YES this is the reference to Leeman. "The Kipper and the Corpse" storyline was used in one of several US attempts to do a hotel comedy on the "Fawlty Towers" concept - I saw the US version many years ago and was amazed when the "dead guest" came alive at the end of the show - I havenīt been able to track down which one of the various US shows it was though.
So the only thing left is the title of the other (movie) which was also "Too French for being Dutch" and the significance of that statement
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the movie from the 2000s? 1990s? 1980s? 1970s? 1960s? Earlier?
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 7:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the movie from the 2000s? 1990s? 1980s? 1970s? 1960s? Earlier?
1980s and 1990s
Mosson (Mosson)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2010 - 9:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

***** SPOILER ******
[I will not have much time to support this thread in the nearest future and the soultion is so close that I might as well present the solution:
The puzzle is about an american remake of a european film. This is not an uncommon thing but in this case unusual for mainly two reasons to me:

1. The original 1988 Dutch version (Spoorlos/Līhomme qui voulait savoir/The Vanishing) is one of my favourite films and by many seen as one of the most chilling and overall best thrillers made in Europe ever
2. The 1993 American Version (The Vanishing) is actually directed by the same (!) person as the original (George Sluizer) and is a rather dismal affair.

In the original version the main character ("BOB1"=Rex Hofman played by unknown actor Gene Bervoets) pursues an obsession to find out what happened to his several years earlier vanished girlfriend (Saskia Wagter played by somewhat less unknown Johanna ter Steege) so that he in the end accepts to follow the same fate that a psychopath gave Saskia - being buried alive by the psycho and dying underground. A new girlfriend tries to save him from his obsession during the preceeding time in the film but fails.

In the American version the main character ("BOB2"=Jeff Harriman played by Kiefer Sutherland) pursues an obsession to find out what happened to his several years earlier vanished girlfriend (Diane Shaver played by somewhat less unknown Sandra Bullock) so that he in the end accepts to follow the same fate that a psychopath (played by Jeff Bridges) gave Diane - being buried alive by the psycho but at the last moment being dug up by a new girlfriend Rita Parker (played by Nancy Travis) she has tried to save him from his obsession during the preceeding time and after she has dug him up they become a very happy couple. There is a lot more major and minor differences between the films.

The original film was officially Dutch but a lot of the story took place in France. The film was very well recieved and was supposed to be the Dutch candidate for the Academy Rewards category of "Best Foreign Film".
It was not allowed to enter though as there was too big a proportion of French dialogue in relation to Dutch language and that broke some rule with the "Academy Awards" (The "duality" of dual language dialogue is lost in countries that dubs films).
This might seem like a trivia sidenote but my belief is that if it had been allowed to enter the "Academy Awards" process the position of George Sluizer would have strengthed and we would perhaps not have had him being pressured to do the American so flawed that it still taints the reputation of the original classic (if you fx. look at the comment fields at Amazon.co.uk or .com you can see that there is confusion on which one is which).

from imdb:
"The film was submitted to the Academy Awards in 1988 as the official Dutch entry for Best Foreign Language Film. However, the AMPAS disqualified it because they determined that there was too much French dialog in the film to warrant it being a Dutch candidate."

Leeman is actually three positions
1. The "real" Andrew Leeman who died 2007 was a famous UK Hotellier that knew John Cleese.
John Cleese was researching a comedy concept that would later become the also classic show "Fawlty Towers" and when questioning Leeman on Hotel stories Leeman told him about the problems of "stiffs" (dead people found in hotel rooms) that had to be dealt with without other hotelguests noticing anything.
2. The Leeman character was named in honor of the real Leeman and is the hotel guest that dies at "Fawlty Towers" in the episode "The Kipper and the Corpse"
3. The third Leeman is probably called something else but I saw him in one of the several ill-fated attempts of an American version of "Fawlty Towers" (which one has eluded me and I have not been able to research it).
As you now must have guessed this supposedely dead "Leeman" turns out to be all well and healthy at the end of the show (he had fallen into some weird "sleep").

I deliberately wanted - as my first ever puzzle - to create something that was about a movie since that is my greatest interest - but since I did not want it to be a matter of memory of films quiz and to straightforward to solve - I made it the story of a film rather than the story in a film. Seems that this approached did lead to some extra confusion. As an extra touch I find it interesting that the original novel that is credited in both films ("The Golden Egg" by Tim Krabbé) is actually built on a classic urban legend and that area seems to also be the most classical source for the most classical lateral puzzles on this site.]

Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2010 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great puzzle! Can't wait for your next one!

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