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Peter365 (Peter365)
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Post Number: 3356
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


Kieran : "Did Big Bucks win the 3.20?"

Peter (me) : "Yes he did"

Kieran : "Fantastic, I bet on him"

Peter : "Let me see the bet"

Studies betting slip

Peter : "Oh dear you really didn't want him to win"

Kieran : "Why on earth not?"


To solve simply answer Kieran's question
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a horse race? A greyhound race?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is this a horse race? Yes A greyhound race?
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make a mistake making his bet?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make a mistake making his bet? No but he failed to realise something
Eli (Eli)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Kieran bet on Big Bucks winning the race? Was there something 'in small print' he had overlooked? Some conditions connected to the bet?

Relevant if he bet on only Big Bucks or on other horses? or races? as well?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make a special type of bet? Trifecta or something similar?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Kieran bet on Big Bucks winning the race? Yes Was there something 'in small print' he had overlooked? Yes Some conditions connected to the bet? Yes

Relevant if he bet on only Big Bucks or on other horses? Yes or races? Yes as well? Yes he bet on other races as well
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make a special type of bet? Yes Trifecta or something similar? The bet he made is called a Lucky 15. You pick 4 horses in different races and the bet consists of 4 win singles, 6 win doubles, 4 win trebles and 1 win four timer. As you can see the bet consists of 15 separate bets so a 2 lucky 15 would cost you a stake of 30.

You've made very quick progress on this
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he win a single in that race? But needed a double? Or something like this?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The bet he made is called a Lucky 15. You pick 4 horses in different races and the bet consists of 4 win singles, 6 win doubles, 4 win trebles and 1 win four timer. As you can see the bet consists of 15 separate bets so a 2 lucky 15 would cost you a stake of 30. --
This line is all complete and utter gibberish to me except the part about it being 15 separate bets. Do I need to understand it any more than that to continue this puzzle?


By picking the winning horse, did he make less money on that bet than he lost on the sum of the other 14 bets? Would he have won more if the second place horse placed first?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he win a single in that race? Yes and... But needed a double? he actually got a double Or something like this? See above
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The bet he made is called a Lucky 15. You pick 4 horses in different races and the bet consists of 4 win singles, 6 win doubles, 4 win trebles and 1 win four timer. As you can see the bet consists of 15 separate bets so a 2 lucky 15 would cost you a stake of 30. --
This line is all complete and utter gibberish to me except the part about it being 15 separate bets. Do I need to understand it any more than that to continue this puzzle? Hmm how do I explain it. A double is where if horse 1 wins the entire win amount goes on to horse 2. In a treble if horse 1&2 win then the accumulated win goes onto horse 3 and in a 4 timer if horses 1, 2 & 3 win then the entire winnings go onto horse 4.

By picking the winning horse, did he make less money on that bet than he lost on the sum of the other 14 bets? No the overall bet returned a profit Would he have won more if the second place horse placed Not sure what you mean by this.

To avoid confusion Kieran's bet fared as follows:

Horse 1 -Won
Horse 2 -Unplaced
Horse 3 -Unplaced
Horse 4 (Big Bucks) - Won

Therefore out of 15 bets only 3 were sucessful namely

Win on horse 1
Win on horse 4
Double on horse 1 & 4

Had Big Bucks not won Kieran would only have had 1 successful bet out of the 15 the win on Horse 1.

So why was getting 3 bets up less favourable than getting 1 up

Hope this is clear
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If another horse had won, would Kieran have made more money? If another horse had won, would Kieran have achieved another profitable combination on his bet? If so, would this combination be something harder to achieve? Something rarely happening?

By Big Bucks winning, Kieran had 3 successful bets out of 15, correct? Or is there something yet unknown proving that he did not have even those 3?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If another horse had won, would Kieran have made more money? If you mean horse 2 & 3 in his bet then yes If another horse had won, would Kieran have achieved another profitable combination on his bet? Yes he would. If either horse 2 or 3 would have won he would have had 7 sucessful bets out of 15 If so, would this combination be something harder to achieve? Well picking winners is always difficult Something rarely happening? Picking 3 out of 4 is not that uncommon but pretty difficult nonetheless

By Big Bucks winning, Kieran had 3 successful bets out of 15, correct? Correct Or is there something yet unknown proving that he did not have even those 3? No he did have those 3 but the question is why was winning 3 bets less preferable to winning only one
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds on each horse relevant?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2011 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds on each horse relevant?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds on each horse relevant? Very much so
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Big Bucks have long odds? Average? Was Big Bucks a favorite?

Same questions for the horse in the other race he won?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Big Bucks have long odds? No Average? No Was Big Bucks a favorite? Yes

Same questions for the horse in the other race he won? Horse 1 was a longshot
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would he hsve won more money with just the longshot than with the favorite-plus-longshot?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 11:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would he hsve won more money with just the longshot than with the favorite-plus-longshot? Yes
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2011 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds combined in the double bet? Did he bet the same amount on both horses?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds combined in the double bet?

To explain : Horse 1 won at odds of 8/1 and Big Bucks won at 1/1 (which we call even money).

Therefore a 2 double on an 8/1 and a 1/1 horse would pay 36 i.e 2 x 8 plus stake returned = 18 , 18 at even money with stake returned =36.

Also Kieran had two win singles 2 at 8/1 which as mentioned pays 18 including stake returned and 2 at even money which paid 4.

Therefore the two winners out of 4 gave kieran a total return of 58 i.e. 36 + 18 + 4.

So why do you think it would have been preferable if only horse 1 had won for which he could only have expected a return of 18.

Hope this is not to complicated


Did he bet the same amount on both horses? See above
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had all the races in his bet been run at this point?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 8:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what horse would have won if not Big Bucks? Would it have been any of the other three horses, with higher odds?
Or did you think that it is a waste of money to bet on even money? and he would have done better to bet all 30 Euro on horse 1?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had all the races in his bet been run at this point? Yes

Relevant what horse would have won if not Big Bucks? If you mean the other horses in his bet that were unplaced then yesish . If they had won he would have increased his winnings significantly Would it have been any of the other three horses, with higher odds? Well if any of the other horses had one this anomaly would not have arisen
Or did you think that it is a waste of money to bet on even money? No and he would have done better to bet all 30 Euro on horse 1? Well it's obvious that he would have done better but this is not on the right track
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, March 25, 2011 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds on the horses in the other races (that he didn't win) relevant?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 28, 2011 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the odds on the horses in the other races (that he didn't win) relevant? No
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, March 28, 2011 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make any other bets?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Monday, March 28, 2011 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did he make any other bets? No

Here's a hint . It was a special weeks racing so....
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Monday, March 28, 2011 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any other races outside of the ones he bet on relevant?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are any other races outside of the ones he bet on relevant? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We established that Kieran had overlooked something in small print. Did the overlooked thing:
- state that there will be extra money paid on single winning on combination bet? (please forgive my complete lack of specific language)
- state that there will be no money paid under certain circumstances, even if there are some winnings on combination bet?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We established that Kieran had overlooked something in small print.Indeed Did the overlooked thing:
- state that there will be extra money paid on single winning on combination bet? (please forgive my complete lack of specific language) No forgiveness needed this is the crux of the matter so well done. Yes the bookmakers were offering a special deal for that weeks racing

- state that there will be no money paid under certain circumstances, even if there are some winnings on combination bet? No

Nearly there now. Just think what the special offer was and you're there. A simple mathmatical step required
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the special offer for a single win on a horse with long odds?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the offer to double the odds for the winning bet with the shortest odds?
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the special offer for a single win on a horse with long odds? Well the bookmakers offered to do something to the odds of the winning horse if only one of your 4 won.

Was the offer to double the odds for the winning bet with the shortest odds? No in terms of the bookmaker's offer the odds of the winning horse did not matter they undertook to do something if only one of your 4 selections won

Next post wins
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wins what? :P
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did they double the amount one if you only got one? Did they give more money?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CORRECTION: Did they double the amount won if you only got one? Did they give more money?

!#@$#@^ homophones...
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wins what? :P A healthy dollop of the satisfaction that comes with a job well done

Did they double the amount one if you only got one? Did they give more money? Not exactly but I think we can go to the

***************SPOILER**************

During Cheltenham Festival week our local bookmaker was offering numerous special bets and enhanced odds. One of which was quadrupling the odds of a winner if a punter had only 1 successful horse in their lucky 15 bet.

As we've established Big Bucks' victory at evens gave Kieran a total return of 58 but had Big Bucks not won Kieran's other winner would have paid 32/1 i.e 8/1 x 4 to a 2 stake thus giving him a return (including stake back) of 66.

So having 2 winners rather than one cost Kieran 8.

I ran this puzzle because I'm struggling to think of another circumstance where one, for financial reasons, would hope a horse they bet on didn't win.

Sorry if this was a bit complicated as I should have known that betting over here is very different than it is across the pond.

Thanks to all who ran in this race

Btw Balin the puzzle title is a pun on my favourite REM song "Wendell Gee" . It's on their "Fables of the Reconstruction album" and features, uniquely, Peter Buck playing a banjo. Do check it out.

Thanks again
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Way ahead of you - I checked out Wendell Gee when you first mentioned it in my puzzle involving me shouting Leonard Bernstein. It's on my iPod now.

And I don't know the first thing about betting.
Peter365 (Peter365)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh yes I forgot I mentioned it before.

I've just checked and I have 316 REM songs on my iPod. Some are live versions of studio songs.so the same song may appear twice.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have 19 (including all of AFTP), but my iPod's running low on memory. Although it's also starting to only work intermittently, so I may end up getting a new one. The most I have by any band is 31 (Beatles, including the entire 1 album, but those are shorter).
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I correct myself - the most I have is 112 by one group, then 42, 41, 31 (by 3), 27, 21 (by 2), and then 19 (by 2, including REM).

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