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Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 729
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He was waiting for it, although he had pretended to not want it. His cousin took it, although it was of no use for him.
What's going on?
Kalira (Kalira)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am vaguely reminded of how Gollum got the One Ring, here, though I'm sure that's not at all relevant to the puzzle, so...

All 'he's refer to the same person? All relevant players human? adults? Is it relevant whether 'his cousin' is male or female?

All 'it's the same thing? Is 'it' something that men are more likely to have than women? the opposite? or is it something that could theoretically belong to either?

"it was of no use for him": because cousin didn't know how to use it? because cousin did not have the ability to use it? or turn it on (if it's something that can be turned on)? because cousin (someone please think of names for these people -- I'm no good at it today) did not need to use it (for example, didn't need to accomplish whatever can be accomplished by using it)?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are "he" and the cousin the only two relevant parties here?

Did the cousin know "he" wanted it?
Did the cousin take it for that reason?

Based on true story?
From your imagination?
From some fictional work? Myth/legend?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 8:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kalira:
I am vaguely reminded of how Gollum got the One Ring, here, though I'm sure that's not at all relevant to the puzzle, so... You're right - it's not relevant to the puzzle.

All 'he's refer to the same person? The last "him" refers to the cousin, the rest - yesAll relevant players human? yes adults? yes Is it relevant whether 'his cousin' is male or female? yes and it's male

All 'it's the same thing? yes Is 'it' something that men are more likely to have than women? the opposite? or is it something that could theoretically belong to either? It could theoretically belong to either, but in the context men are much more likely to have it than women

"it was of no use for him": because cousin didn't know how to use it? definitely not because cousin did not have the ability to use it? partly this or turn it on (if it's something that can be turned on it is not) ? because cousin (someone please think of names for these people -- I'm no good at it today) did not need to use it partly this (for example, didn't need to accomplish whatever can be accomplished by using it)? but not as in the example
None of these reasons is the major motivation of the cousin.

Vesica:
Are "he" and the cousin the only two relevant parties here? Many people were involved in the story, but only "he" and "cousin" - names below - are directly acting.

Did the cousin know "he" wanted it? yes
Did the cousin take it for that reason? partly, but... Maybe rephrasing would help

Based on true story? yes
From your imagination?
From some fictional work? Myth/legend?

Let's call him Louis and his cousin - Henry.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Henry take it just so Louis couldn't have it?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Did Henry take it just so Louis couldn't have it? YES
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Henry H? A? M?
Is Louis H? A? M?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did Louis pretend he didn't want it because he knew Henry would take it?

did Henry steal it? or did he simply snaffle it as soon as it became available?

was Loius waiting for it to come into existence? or did it already exist but he couldn't have it? if so, did it belong to someone else?

is the thing an object? tangible? intangible? valuable? rare? of sentimental value?

do most men have only one? or might they have a few?

had Louis hoped to inherit it?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Is Henry H? A? M? yes to all
Is Louis H? A? M? yes to all

Shez:
did Louis pretend he didn't want it because he knew Henry would take it? Partly

did Henry steal it? This is the best, yet a bit inaccurate description or did he simply snaffle it as soon as it became available?

was Loius waiting for it to come into existence? yesish or did it already exist but he couldn't have it? if so, did it belong to someone else? no to the rest

is the thing an object? yes, but... tangible? yes, but... intangible? valuable? yes rare? very of sentimental value? not really sentimental, but...

do most men have only one? Most men do not have any or might they have a few? those who have any may have a few

had Louis hoped to inherit it? that's not the case
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

kings relevant?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it unique? is it a person? an animal?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kayleetonkslupin:
kings relevant? very much so

Shez:
is it unique? yes is it a person? an animal? but none of these
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the throne of France? of England? both?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

KayleeTonksLupin:
the throne of France? of England? both? none
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A crown? A title? A throne?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

you did say he didn't hope to inherit it?

is it land? power? respect?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noel:
A crown? A title? A throne? yes to all. The object Louis was waiting for was a crown - and other stuff needed for coronation. But it was connected with receiving a title and a throne.

Shez:
you did say he didn't hope to inherit it? Yes, indeed. No inheritance involved.

is it land? power? respect? see above
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was the crown stolen?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Henry forcibly take the crown? Overthrow the existing ruler? Was the previous king related to him? To Louis?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Friday, April 01, 2011 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did a monarch die?

was he waiting for someone to die? or for a country or territory to be taken over? or for a treaty to be signed? or for the monarchy to be re-instated?

good grief! it's not King Juan-Carlos? and I think his cousin-ish was called Juan too?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was the crown stolen? yes

Noel:
Did Henry forcibly take the crown? yes Overthrow the existing ruler? no Was the previous king related to him? irrelevant, but yes To Louis? ditto

Shez:
did a monarch die? not within the timeframes of this puzzle

was he waiting for someone to die? no or for a country or territory to be taken over? yesish or for a treaty to be signed? no or for the monarchy to be re-instated? yesish

good grief! it's not King Juan-Carlos? and I think his cousin-ish was called Juan too? no, it's not the case
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 2:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are the long-time English land claims in France relevant?
Anything about the fact that lots of English Kings included "King of France" as part of their title?

Did Henry simply claim the crown?
But it was of no use to him because he wasn't where the "ruled" lands were?
Or had no way to claim them?
Or not enough military might to seize them?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2011 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vesica:
Are the long-time English land claims in France relevant? no
Anything about the fact that lots of English Kings included "King of France" as part of their title?no

Did Henry simply claim the crown? no, see posts above, he forcibly took it
But it was of no use to him because he wasn't where the "ruled" lands were? no
Or had no way to claim them? noish
Or not enough military might to seize them? no
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP:
Louis was waiting for a crown (and kingdom, but physical crown is very much involved) although he had pretended he did not want it. Louis was yesishly waiting for the kingdom to come into existence. Louis couldn't inherit the crown. His cousin Henry forcibly and physically took the crown, mostly to deprive Louis of it. The crown was of no use to Henry - partly because he didn't need it, partly because he was unable to use it.

Still to be found out - why was the crown of no use to Henry? And how one can steal the crown of non-existing kingdom?
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Louis going to create the kingdom? Was Henry?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was Louis going to create the kingdom? yes - but how? Was Henry? no.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he planning on forming his own country? Conquering another place?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was this a case where a number of kingdoms were united to form a new kingdom under a single user? or was there no monarchy at all and then a place became a kingdom?

or was it a country which was previously part of another kingdom but then it broke away under a new ruler?
Noel (Noel)
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Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2011 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the kingdom a literal, physical kingdom (i.e. if Louis created the kingdom, would it be in the real world, with land and subjects)? Is it a fictional kingdom? If so, created within a book? A movie? A game?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Friday, April 08, 2011 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was he planning on forming his own country? yesish. Conquering another place?

Shez:
was this a case where a number of kingdoms were united to form a new kingdom under a single user? yes, something like this, with the difference that these were rather lands than kingdoms. or was there no monarchy at all and then a place became a kingdom? The land of Louis was some time ago the kingdom, then it was not (but remain souvereign) and then it united with another land - already a kingdom - to be one kingdom.

or was it a country which was previously part of another kingdom but then it broke away under a new ruler? see above

Noel:
Is the kingdom a literal, physical kingdom (i.e. if Louis created the kingdom, would it be in the real world, with land and subjects)? yes it is. Is it a fictional kingdom? If so, created within a book? A movie? A game? so no.
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

could Henry not use the crown because of his age? religion? marital status? was he already a monarch?

did the land remain sovereign but not a kingdom because it had a different kid of ruler? a queen? a duke? someone else representing the monarch? or was it because it had become part of another kingdom?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez:
could Henry not use the crown because of his age? religion? marital status? was he already a monarch? this

did the land remain sovereign but not a kingdom because it had a different kid of ruler? yes a queen? a duke? this someone else representing the monarch? or was it because it had become part of another kingdom?

Almost there.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Henry the duke? Was Louis?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was Henry the duke? Was Louis? the latter
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is it Normandy?
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez:
is it Normandy? no, it is not. Where it happened is mostly irrelevant for the puzzle.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP:
Louis was waiting for a crown (and kingdom, but physical crown is very much involved) although he had pretended he did not want it. Louis was a duke and his land was united with another one and formed one kingdom. Louis was about to become a king of his land, which would then separate from the union. His cousin Henry forcibly and physically took the crown, mostly to deprive Louis of it. The crown was of no use to Henry, because he already was a king.

HINTS: Henry was a king of the united kingdom, and the land of Louis was part of this kingdom.
Exploring when it happened and where Louis got the crown from may be helpful. Remember that Louis pretended that he didn't want the crown.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Henry hoping to lay claim to Louis' land? To keep the kingdom together?
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Henry's name actually Henry? Was Louis' actually Louis? (If Henry was King of the United Kingdom, then clearly not, as the last Henry was not King of Scotland, no matter how hard he tried)

Kings of the United Kingdom:
George I
George II
George III
George IV
William IV
Edward VII
George V
Edward VIII
George VI
(Anyone want to place bets on what Charles will call himself? Somehow I don't see Charles III as going over well...the last two had rotten luck. George VII, maybe?)
Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Please assume each name was a question, as I was trying to find out which one it was. I just forgot the question marks...blame the earliness of the hour.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2011 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Balin:
Was Henry hoping to lay claim to Louis' land? To keep the kingdom together? this

KayleeTonksLupin:
Was Henry's name actually Henry? Was Louis' actually Louis? no to both (If Henry was King of the United Kingdom, then clearly not, as the last Henry was not King of Scotland, no matter how hard he tried)
I see that my last hints were misleading - Henry was not the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under this or any former name, he was the king of the unspecified united kingdom, composed of Kingdom of X and Land of Y, ruled by the Duke Louis.

Kings of the United Kingdom: No to all, see above.
George I
George II
George III
George IV
William IV
Edward VII
George V
Edward VIII
George VI
(Anyone want to place bets on what Charles will call himself? Somehow I don't see Charles III as going over well...the last two had rotten luck. George VII, maybe?)
Redwine (Redwine)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As noone seems longer interested in this puzzle and I have no idea for new hints that wouldn't give away the solution, so here is the

*******SPOILER************
The puzzle is about the king of Poland (here Henry) and Great Duke of Lithuania (here Louis) and took place in the early XVth century. Henry and Louis were cousins and their lands were united under the reign of Henry, but Louis still held his title, lands have separate parliaments etc.
Internal opposition and some foreign powers offered a crown of Lithuania to Louis. He pretended not to want it, because he didn't want to openly raise against Henry. The german king (Kaiser) sent the crown to Louis, but Henry got known of it and his men stole the crown before it entered Lithuania. Louis had to pretend he knew nothing about the crown being sent to him and later stolen. The crown was of no use to Henry, because he already ruled Lithuania, being King of Poland. But by stealing the crown, Henry preserved the union.
Balin (Balin)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry for not asking questions -- I was interested, but had no idea what to ask. That is an interesting story, and it makes for a great puzzle!
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Redwine,

me too - I just ran out of ideas. bur thanks for an interesting puzzle.

as for Charles - I'm still surprised that they would let him reign now that he's married to a divorcee - they must have changed our non-existent constitution. But I don't think he'll call himself King Arthur - how about another middle name - Louis, who was also his favourite uncle?

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