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Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1301
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On my “Of Vice and Virtue” puzzle, Rbruma got the ball rolling with the first questions but commented “A very complicated puzzle statement. I miss the days of ‘He fired. She died. Explain why!’. My puzzle statements tend to be wordy, but his remark got me thinking. So…with a minor edit, here it is. Though I'm not sure this one is going to be simple, though the puzzle statement certainly is.

She fired. He died. Explain!
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1510
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She = H/A/F?
He = H/A/M?

Did she fire a gun?
Did she shoot him?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1303
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She = H/A/F? Yes
He = H/A/M? H and M....

Did she fire a gun? No
Did she shoot him? No
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1511
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he an infant? toddler? child? teenager? Is she his mother?
Did she fire someone from their job? Fire questions at someone?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1306
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is he an infant? toddler? Toddler - 3 year old
child? teenager? No to these
Is she his mother? No
Did she fire someone from their job? YES
Fire questions at someone? No
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1514
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 5:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she fire a H/A/M? H/A/F? The child's mother? father?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1314
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did she fire a H/A/M? H/A/F? Could be either, but let's say HAM

The child's mother? father? Nope
Potato (Potato)
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Post Number: 809
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can we call her Sheila?
And the toddler Mark?
And the HAM Chris?

Relevant why Sheila fired the Chris?

Is Sheila the boss or HR manager of a company and Chris was one of her employees?
Or had she hired Chris privately? Was Chris a babysitter for Mark?

Was Chris involved in Mark's death?
Did Sheila blame him for it?
Was Mark's death an accident?
Did Chris kill him?
If he did, was it revenge for having been fired?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1325
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can we call her Sheila? Sure
And the toddler Mark? Okay
And the HAM Chris? Chris it is.

Relevant why Sheila fired the Chris? Yes

Is Sheila the boss or HR manager of a company and Chris was one of her employees? Yes, let's say boss.
Or had she hired Chris privately? No
Was Chris a babysitter for Mark? No

Was Chris involved in Mark's death? No
Did Sheila blame him for it? No
Was Mark's death an accident? YOPE, rephrase?
Did Chris kill him? No
If he did, was it revenge for having been fired? So no
Potato (Potato)
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Post Number: 811
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mark die while Sheila was firing Chris?
Before?
Afterwards?

When Mark died, was he anywhere near Sheila?
In her company? Even her office?
At home?
At somebody else's place?

The person who was supposed to take care of Mark when he died, was it
...his father?
...his siblings?
...Sheila himself?
...another family member?
...one of Sheila's employees?
...a family friend or acquaintance?

Was said person present when Mark died?
Did they not pay proper attention to what Mark was doing?
Did they make a mistake? Such as accidently giving Mark food that he was allergic to?
Did they mistreat Mark?

Did Mark die from
...falling from something?
...drowning?
...choking?
...an allergic reaction?
...intake of a chemical?
...a wrong dosing of medication?
...a sickness?
Potato (Potato)
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Post Number: 812
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chris know Mark?
Did Mark know Chris?
Had they ever interacted with each other?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Post Number: 1525
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Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chris a custodian for Mark? His doctor? A relative of Mark?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1327
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 1:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Potato
Did Mark die while Sheila was firing Chris? No
Before? No
Afterwards? Yes

When Mark died, was he anywhere near Sheila? Yes
In her company? Like, near her? No.
Even her office? No
At home? No
At somebody else's place? As in at someone's home? No.

The person who was supposed to take care of Mark when he died, was it
...his father?
...his siblings?
...Sheila himself?
...another family member?
...one of Sheila's employees?
...a family friend or acquaintance?
Of what you listed, YOPE to father and Sheila's employee. Not sure what you mean by "supposed to take care of Mark" which is why it's a YOPE.


Was said person present when Mark died?
Did they not pay proper attention to what Mark was doing?
Did they make a mistake? Such as accidently giving Mark food that he was allergic to?
Did they mistreat Mark?
I can't really answer these without making tons of assumptions about what you mean since there isn't a "said person" and there are some phrasing issues going on. Sorry to seem so difficult. I'm really not trying to be.

Did Mark die from
...falling from something?
...drowning?
...choking?
...an allergic reaction?
...intake of a chemical?
...a wrong dosing of medication?
...a sickness? This

Did Chris know Mark? No
Did Mark know Chris? No
Had they ever interacted with each other? No

Rbruma
Was Chris a custodian for Mark? Like a guardian? No.
His doctor? No
A relative of Mark? No
Potato (Potato)
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Post Number: 817
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 1:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With the person who was "supposed to take care of Mark", I meant the person Sheila wanted to look after Mark while she's busy working. Sorry for the not-so-clear phrasing :-)
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1330
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 2:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With the person who was "supposed to take care of Mark", I meant the person Sheila wanted to look after Mark while she's busy working. Sorry for the not-so-clear phrasing :-)
AH, perhaps I should call your attention back to the fact Sheila is NOT Mark's mother?? (see my answers to Doriana)
Shez (Shez)
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Post Number: 959
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was Mark a doctor? nurse? ambulance driver? anything at all in health care?

was Mark a scientist? a policeman? fireman?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1334
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was Mark a doctor? nurse? ambulance driver? anything at all in health care?

was Mark a scientist? a policeman? fireman?
Mark is three years old (and dead) so...none of these. Did you mean Chris?

I'm guessing yes so: YES, Chris is a doctor.
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1522
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chris work in a hospital? Was Mark in said hospital? Because he was ill?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1338
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Chris work in a hospital? Yes
Was Mark in said hospital? Yes
Because he was ill? Yes
Shez (Shez)
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Post Number: 965
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

oops!

is Chris a specialist?

did Mark die specifically because Chris wasn't there or because there weren't enough doctors in general? did Chris have a particular skill or piece of knowledge that would have savedMark's life?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1524
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 5:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is his specific disease relevant? Had he had surgery? Did he need surgery?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1344
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shez
is Chris a specialist? No

did Mark die specifically because Chris wasn't there YES
or because there weren't enough doctors in general? No
did Chris have a particular skill or piece of knowledge that would have savedMark's life? Yes

Doriana
Is his specific disease relevant? Yes-ish. It could have been any one of a set of diseases that share a commonality. I'm not going to make you guess the exact disease (though you are free to if you like).

Had he had surgery? Did he need surgery? No and No (with a slight "ish")
Doriana (Doriana)
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Post Number: 1533
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Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it cancer? Another disease that involves tumors? Is it a disease that affects the brain? blood? lungs? liver? intestines? bones? central nervous system? muscles?
Is the disease more common among young children than among other age groups? Is a chronic disease?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1346
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Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 3:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it cancer? No
Another disease that involves tumors? No
Is it a disease that affects the brain? Yes blood? No
lungs? Yes
liver? No
intestines? No
bones? No
central nervous system? Yes
muscles? No
Is the disease more common among young children than among other age groups? Yesish
Is a chronic disease? No
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 783
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Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it an infectious disease? (measles?)
or a genetic disorder?
Would there have been a chance to save Mark's life? to fully recover him?
Did Mark need medication? did he get? the right one?
Did Mark die from the disease? or from a wrong medication? was he allergic to the medicine he got?
Did Chris have a special knowledge about Mark? Was Mark already in the hospital when Chris was still working there? Did Chris ever see Mark?
Relevant why Chris was fired?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1373
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it an infectious disease? Yes (measles?) No
or a genetic disorder? No
Would there have been a chance to save Mark's life? Yes
to fully recover him? Yes
Did Mark need medication? YOPE
did he get? No
the right one? N/A
Did Mark die from the disease? No-ish
or from a wrong medication? No
was he allergic to the medicine he got? N/A
Did Chris have a special knowledge about Mark? About Mark specifically, No.
Was Mark already in the hospital when Chris was still working there? Let's say no.
Did Chris ever see Mark? NO
Relevant why Chris was fired? Yes, a little.
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Meningitis?
Was Chris a specialist in Mark's disease?
Was there no one else there who could help Mark like Chris could have?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1379
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Meningitis? Yes, this is involved.
Was Chris a specialist in Mark's disease? No

Was there no one else there who could help Mark like Chris could have? YES! Now...why?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 6:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mark need a blood transfusion?
Did he have a rare blood group? but Chris had it, too?
Is Chris Mark's father? (unknowingly, possibly)
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had Chris ever had Mark's disease as well?
Or a family member/friend/acuaintance/colleague of Chris'?

Did Mark die because the other doctors misdiagnosed his symptoms?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1383
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner
Did Mark need a blood transfusion? No
Did he have a rare blood group? but Chris had it, too? Irrelevant

Is Chris Mark's father? (unknowingly, possibly)
Neither knowingly or un-

Potato
Had Chris ever had Mark's disease as well? Irrelevant
Or a family member/friend/acuaintance/colleague of Chris'? No...

Did Mark die because the other doctors misdiagnosed his symptoms? YES!
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1384
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP:

She fired. He died. Explain!


She = HAF = Sheila, who is the boss of Chris (HAM) who was fired.

He, Mark, was a three year old who died.

We Know:
Chris is a doctor who works in a hospital.
It is relevant(ish) why he was fired.

Mark died of a disease and meningitis was involved. Mark died due to misdiagnosis by other doctors.

Mark died because Chris was not there, as there was no one else who could help Mark like Chris could have (were he not fired). However, Chris is not a specialist in Mark’s ailment and had never met Mark.

Mark “Yope-ishly” needed medication.

HINT: There are some standard questions that haven't been asked yet that may help open new avenues of exploration.
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Chris' specialization relevant?
Had Chris had a similar case before?

Had Chris read something about Mark's disease before?

Did he know Mark's family?
And therefore knew something relevant about his medical history?
Or about how he could've contracted the disease?

Was Chris fired because
...he had misdiagnosed a patient himself?
...he otherwise didn't treat a patient correctly?
...he stole something?
...he conducted any kind of unallowed experiments?
...of fraud?
...of an affair/relationship that was not approved of in the hospital?

If Chris had misdiagnosed a patient earlier, had that patient really had Mark's disease?
Or had Chris thought that the patient had Mark's disease?
Shez (Shez)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

was Chris fired because he disagreed with the diagnosis but no-one listened to him?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1385
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Potato
Is Chris' specialization relevant? It might help the puzzle along.
Had Chris had a similar case before? Yes

Had Chris read something about Mark's disease before? Yes, but...

Did he know Mark's family? No
And therefore knew something relevant about his medical history? No, he had NO contact with or knowledge of Mark or his family.
Or about how he could've contracted the disease? Thus no.

Was Chris fired because
...he had misdiagnosed a patient himself? No
...he otherwise didn't treat a patient correctly? No
...he stole something? No
...he conducted any kind of unallowed experiments? No
...of fraud? No
...of an affair/relationship that was not approved of in the hospital? No

As I think on it - "Fired" may not be the best way to put it.

If Chris had misdiagnosed a patient earlier, had that patient really had Mark's disease?
Or had Chris thought that the patient had Mark's disease?
He had not, so ignoring these.

Shez
was Chris fired because he disagreed with the diagnosis but no-one listened to him? No. Again, he never saw or interacted with Mark.
Potato (Potato)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sheila end Chris' employment?
Did Chris do it himself?
Did Chris want to specialize in a different field?
Did Chris have to?
Did Chris no longer want to work as a doctor?
Did Chris lose his license as a doctor?

Was Chris let go because he wasn't able to work in his field any longer?
Because in his field, people often suffer or die suffering and he couldn't take it anymore?

Had Chris done anything relevant wrong before he was fired?

Was Chris specilized in
...tropical diseases?
...psychiatrics?
...anaesthetics?
...surgery?
...cardiology?
...respiratory?
...nephrology?
...ophthalmology?
...orthopedics?
...rheumatology?
...neurology?
...oncology?
...intensive care?
...neonatal care?
...pediatrics?
...ENT?
...haematology?
...gastroenterology?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Sheila end Chris' employment? Yes
Did Chris do it himself? No
Did Chris want to specialize in a different field? No
Did Chris have to? No
Did Chris no longer want to work as a doctor? No
Did Chris lose his license as a doctor? No

Was Chris let go because he wasn't able to work in his field any longer? No
Because in his field, people often suffer or die suffering and he couldn't take it anymore? No

Had Chris done anything relevant wrong before he was fired? No

Was Chris specilized in Amazingly - None of these.
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 7:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chris fired purely because of cutbacks?
Did Mark die soon after Chris was fired or was it a long term thing? e.g. Chris couldn't complete his training and this led on to x and then to y etc?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chris fired purely because of cutbacks? YES! But he was chosen because...

I realized as we went on that "fired" might be less accurate than "let go".


Did Mark die soon after Chris was fired or was it a long term thing? Irrelevant how long after.

e.g. Chris couldn't complete his training and this led on to x and then to y etc? Nope
Lynne (Lynne)
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Posted on Friday, June 10, 2011 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was he chosen because he was 'last in'?
Had he ever treated a child with the same condition as Mark?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 6:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was Chris the one on the list with the highest salary? so firing him might saved two other jobs?
Did Sheila have any serious dispute or argument with Chris prior to his dismissal?
Was Chris a plastic surgeon?
Was a doctor from the pediatric department sent to take over Chris's job?
As I understood, Mark had an infectious disease, but did not die from the disease itself. Right?
So it was not a potentially fatal disease?
Did he recover from the disease but died later? (maybe at home? for reasons unrelated to the disease?)
Did he pick up another infection in the hospital?
Did he die from malnutrition? dehydration?
Were parasites the reason for his death?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1407
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Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 4:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lynne
Was he chosen because he was 'last in'? No, in fact..
Had he ever treated a child with the same condition as Mark? Yes, most likely

Sundowner
Was Chris the one on the list with the highest salary? Most likely, yes
so firing him might saved two other jobs? Yep
Did Sheila have any serious dispute or argument with Chris prior to his dismissal? No
Was Chris a plastic surgeon? No
Was a doctor from the pediatric department sent to take over Chris's job? Irrelevant

As I understood, Mark had an infectious disease, but did not die from the disease itself. Right? Correct
So it was not a potentially fatal disease? It was potentially fatal.
Did he recover from the disease but died later? No
(maybe at home? for reasons unrelated to the disease?) Thus no
Did he pick up another infection in the hospital? No
Did he die from malnutrition? dehydration? Neither of these
Were parasites the reason for his death? Er, yes, in the true definition of the word.
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did Mark die from a different disease?
From an accident? allergic reaction? food poisoning?
Was he murdered?
Is anything else relevant about Chris except that he is no longer there?
Would Mark have survived if Chris was still working there? and somebody else got fired instead of Chris?
Was Sheila aware that Chris could save Mark's live? Did she try to get Chris back?
The yopeish medication Mark needed: some kind of therapy? physical therapy? dialysis? a special diet?
Would it help to identify Mark's disease? Is it a common disease? one that occurs often with children? with boys?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Post Number: 1410
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sundowner
Did Mark die from a different disease? Different than??

To clear up this part, Mark had a specific disease/illness. However, it did not kill him directly. Rather, he died of another condition caused by the original disease. The condition is a known side effect of the disease and is more common in younger children to contract the disease.


From an accident? allergic reaction? food poisoning? Mark died from NONE of these.
Was he murdered? No

Is anything else relevant about Chris except that he is no longer there? YES

Would Mark have survived if Chris was still working there? Yes, very likely.
and somebody else got fired instead of Chris? Yes
Was Sheila aware that Chris could save Mark's live? Perhaps, but probably not clearly aware.
Did she try to get Chris back? No

The yopeish medication Mark needed: some kind of therapy? No
physical therapy? No
dialysis? No
a special diet? No
These are on the wrong track.

Would it help to identify Mark's disease? It might, though figuring out the meds OR what's relevant about Chris might point you to the disease.

Is it a common disease? Yes
one that occurs often with children? No more often with children than adults.
with boys? No
Redwine (Redwine)
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Post Number: 862
Registered: 1-2011
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the dismissal of any other doctor/medical attendant besides Chris have affected Mark's condition?
Are other people relevant besides Mark, Chris and Sheila?
Is that relevant that hospital needed cutbacks (besides the obvious fact of Chris losing job)?
Are not-medical skills of Chris relevant? If so, was he able to speak relevant foreign language?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1412
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would the dismissal of any other doctor/medical attendant besides Chris have affected Mark's condition? In this specific case, No. Assuming Chris is unique from the rest of the staff in one key respect.

Are other people relevant besides Mark, Chris and Sheila? Yes

Is that relevant that hospital needed cutbacks (besides the obvious fact of Chris losing job)? Beyond Chris being let go, No.

Are not-medical skills of Chris relevant? No
If so, was he able to speak relevant foreign language? Thus Irrelevant
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Post Number: 798
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Mark's parents relevant? or any other of his relatives?
Was Mark examined by any doctor? was his disease diagnosed correctly? did the doctor who examined Mark know about the side effects of the disease? did he diagnose it? did he prescribe the needed medication?
Was Mark able to express what is wrong with him? (or was he unconscious all the time?)
If a medication was prescribed: did Mark take it?
Did Mark trust the doctor? did he trust the nurses? Were Mark's parents present in the hospital?
Is the disease parotitis? and the side effect myocarditis?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1438
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Mark's parents relevant? Yes
or any other of his relatives? No
Was Mark examined by any doctor? Yes
was his disease diagnosed correctly? No
did the doctor who examined Mark know about the side effects of the disease? Perhaps
did he diagnose it? The side effect? No
did he prescribe the needed medication? FA

Was Mark able to express what is wrong with him? No...
(or was he unconscious all the time?) Mostly because very sick 3 year olds are often not terribly verbal.

If a medication was prescribed:
did Mark take it? No
Did Mark trust the doctor? Irrelevant
did he trust the nurses? Irrelevant
Were Mark's parents present in the hospital? Yes
Is the disease parotitis? No, but right part of the body for the side effect.
and the side effect myocarditis? No
Potato (Potato)
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Username: Potato

Post Number: 838
Registered: 7-2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Chris is unique from the rest of the stuff because he has knowledge of Mark's disease and he had a similar case before.
Was he able to solve the previous case?
Was another of the doctors who worked on the case able to solve it?
Did the previous patient die?
If so, did he die from the same effect that killed Mark?
Did the previous case also happen in the hospital that Sheila works in?
Or was it a different hospital?

Is the previous case Chris' only source of knowledge about Mark's disease?
If not, is any of the following relevant?
His education?
A hobby of his?
His current living conditions?
His former living conditions, if applicable?
A family member/friend/acquaintance of his?
Anything he has seen on TV or read somewhere?
His own medical history?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1444
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 2:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, Chris is unique from the rest of the stuff because he has knowledge of Mark's disease and he had a similar case before. That would be part of it. See hint below.

Was he able to solve the previous case?
Was another of the doctors who worked on the case able to solve it?
Did the previous patient die?
If so, did he die from the same effect that killed Mark?
Did the previous case also happen in the hospital that Sheila works in?
Or was it a different hospital?
All of this is irrelevant.

Is the previous case Chris' only source of knowledge about Mark's disease? No, assume there were multiple previous cases.

If not, is any of the following relevant?
His education? Yope
A hobby of his? No
His current living conditions? No
His former living conditions, if applicable? No
A family member/friend/acquaintance of his? No
Anything he has seen on TV or read somewhere? No
His own medical history? No

A few HINTS:

1. There is one very simple reason Chris has knowledge others working with him do not. WAY simpler than what some of you have been guessing.

2. There is a "global" issue here that has not be discovered. Figuring out the thing about Chris could reveal this as well.

3. It may be wise to ask some more questions about the medication issue as I think there is an FA that's tripping you all up.
Redwine (Redwine)
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Username: Redwine

Post Number: 869
Registered: 1-2011
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 2:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The medication:
It's not anything like drugs or pills, correct?
It's not also a therapy or a diet, right?
Did Mark need a surgery?
Did Mark need a blood transfusion?
Did Mark need exercises? Sun? Fresh air?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1451
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The medication:
It's not anything like drugs or pills, correct? It's most like this.

It's not also a therapy or a diet, right? Correct.

Did Mark need a surgery? No
Did Mark need a blood transfusion? No
Did Mark need exercises? Sun? Fresh air? No to all.

It IS a medication ("medicinal substance") but it would be very odd to hear it called that since there is a word for the kind of medication. Also, some would not consider it legitimate medication (but this puzzle is NOT about the differences of opinon).
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 800
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The relevance of Mark's parents: did they give inaccurate information? about what had happened? about what medicine they gave Mark already? about some relevant aspect of Mark's home?
Were they misunderstood by the doctor?
Did they oppose the therapy suggested by the doctor?

Does Chris have a three year old boy himself?
Would he have known what drug was required? From an earlier similar case? Is it an unusual drug? one that is hard to get? or a very expensive one? a drug that was not yet officially released? potentially illegal? or a drug that had been used in medieval times?
Did he already administer this drug to a three year old boy? to somebody else? to himself?

Is the disease influenza?

About the "right part of body for the side effect": head? ears? salivary glands?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1456
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The relevance of Mark's parents:
did they give inaccurate information? No
about what had happened? No
about what medicine they gave Mark already?No, FA
about some relevant aspect of Mark's home? No
Were they misunderstood by the doctor? No

Did they oppose the therapy suggested by the doctor? Yes, but be VERY careful.

Does Chris have a three year old boy himself? Irrelevant

Would he have known what drug was required? FA
From an earlier similar case? FA

Is it an unusual drug? No
one that is hard to get? No
or a very expensive one? No
a drug that was not yet officially released? No
potentially illegal? No
or a drug that had been used in medieval times? NO

Did he already administer this drug to a three year old boy? He might have. Irrelevant.
to somebody else? to himself? Irrelevant.

Is the disease influenza? No, but very very close.

About the "right part of body for the side effect": head? ears? salivary glands?
This isn't a vital detail so let's just cut to the chase. Mark died because of epiglottitis (his throat swelled shut and he couldn't breathe).
Doriana (Doriana)
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Username: Doriana

Post Number: 1549
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Had Chris worked in a foreign country? Where the disease is more common?
Is his age relevant?
Rbruma (Rbruma)
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Username: Rbruma

Post Number: 1558
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 5:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Homeopathy medicine or treatment relevant?
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 805
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 7:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, you're going to say that a vaccination could have saved Mark's life?
Did Mark have a vaccination against HIB? (apparently not)
Was he scheduled to get one?
Is the reason why he did not have a vaccination directly related to Chris's dismissal?
Did the vaccine finish? or were the parents not able to afford the vaccine? or did they oppose vaccination in general?
Potato (Potato)
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Username: Potato

Post Number: 840
Registered: 7-2010
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Chris in a way specialized in vaccinations?
So that he could conclude that Mark's symptoms are a result of not being vaccinated (properly)?
While other doctors failed take into account his vaccination status?
Or failed to see the connection?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1469
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doriana
Had Chris worked in a foreign country? No
Where the disease is more common? No, but this has an element of OTRT
Is his age relevant? YES!

Rbruma
Homeopathy medicine or treatment relevant? No

Sundowner
So, you're going to say that a vaccination could have saved Mark's life? In this case Yes
Did Mark have a vaccination against HIB? No(apparently not)
Was he scheduled to get one? Yes
Is the reason why he did not have a vaccination directly related to Chris's dismissal? No
Did the vaccine finish? No
or were the parents not able to afford the vaccine? No
or did they oppose vaccination in general? Yes

Potato
Is Chris in a way specialized in vaccinations? No
So that he could conclude that Mark's symptoms are a result of not being vaccinated (properly)? Yes, but not for the reason you stated.
While other doctors failed take into account his vaccination status? Yes
Or failed to see the connection? No

So, without getting into the politics of vaccination vs. not vaccinating - Can anyone put it all together? We have all the vital elements. Why would Mark have lived had Chris been at the hospital that night?
Doriana (Doriana)
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Username: Doriana

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Chris old? Had the disease been more common before the vaccination was invented? And because Chris is so old, he has seen cases of the disease in the past?
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1483
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is Chris old? Older, yes!
Had the disease been more common before the vaccination was invented? YES
And because Chris is so old, he has seen cases of the disease in the past? Yes!

You-know-what coming right up!
Vesica (Vesica)
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Username: Vesica

Post Number: 1484
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

****** SPOILER ******

This puzzle was drawn from a story in the opening of The Panic Virus: A True Story of Medicine, Science, and Fear by Seth Mnookin about the debate about possible links between autism and vaccination. (Very well written, interesting book by the way.)

The puzzle statement is the opposite of what happened in the true story. “Mark” was a healthy three-year-old boy until he started fussing one evening. His parents had a date night scheduled and one of their parents stayed with Mark and their older child. By the time they arrived home, Mark had a high fever and was having trouble breathing. His parents took him to the ER and were reassured when doctors initially thought it was only the flu or perhaps allergies.

Except Mark didn’t improve. In fact, his breathing was getting worse by the minute. A older doctor the couple had not seen before came to the room, took one look at Mark and asked ‘Have you had this child vaccinated?’. For a number of reasons (mostly concern about possible dangers of vaccines), Mark’s parents had not. The doctor quickly realized Mark had a Hib infection that was causing epiglottitis and his throat was swelling closed. Within minutes, Mark’s room was swarming with staff preparing him for immediate airlift to the closest children’s specialty hospital. The doctor pulled the parents aside and told them that he was going to try to intubate Mark and that if it didn’t work, he might not live long enough for the rescue chopper to arrive. In the end, Mark was fine – but not until after spending nearly a month in a medically-induced coma while his body healed.

I wasn’t trying to get into the politics or beliefs of vaccinating vs. not vaccinating, but the story made what to me was a very interesting point about the fact most of the current US population is vaccinated against a number of diseases.

The Hib vaccine went into common use in 1990. In the 1980’s, 1 in 1000 children caught Hib and some had the more serious side effects, such as epiglottitis. By 2010, cases had fallen to 1 in 100,000. Mark went to the ER in 2008 or 2009 and by sheer luck, the older doctor was working that night. Of all of the staff in the ER, he was the only person that had ever seen a severe Hib infection before and thought to ask if Mark had been vaccinated. If he hadn’t been there, it’s likely Mark would have died, not because the other doctors weren’t excellent, but because it would have taken them too long to realize that they were looking at what, to them, was a very rare disease.


Thanks to all who played! Hopefully it was fun.
Shez (Shez)
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Username: Shez

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 2-2011
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

amazing! and great puzzle, thanks
Sundowner (Sundowner)
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Username: Sundowner

Post Number: 813
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Amazing story. And another argument pro vaccination: Better not become dependent on the abilities of some doctors, or the efficiency of our emergency health care system.
Thanks.

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