| Author | Message | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2011 |
It's fascinating to think how different the world would be today if they (H/A/group) hadn't eaten so much dairy. | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4728 Registered: 9-2010 |
They: Real? Fictional? Currently alive? Dead? 20th century? 19th? 18th? 17th? 16th? 15th? 14th? 13th? 12th? 11th? 10th? 9th? 8th? 7th? 6th? 5th? 4th? 3rd? 2nd? 1st? B.C.? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 59 Registered: 9-2011 |
They: Real? this Fictional? Currently alive? Dead?this 20th century? 19th? 18th? 17th? 16th? 15th? 14th? 13th? 12th? 11th? 10th? 9th? 8th? 7th? 6th? 5th? 4th? 3rd? 2nd? 1st? B.C.? medieval in general | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4729 Registered: 9-2010 |
are they from Europe? Asia? Africa? the Americas? Australia/Oceania? Antarctica? (they could be penguins...just kidding =) ) | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 60 Registered: 9-2011 |
are they from Europe? depends on if you define Europe geographically or culturally, but this is the best choice Asia? Africa? the Americas? Australia/Oceania? Antarctica? (they could be penguins...just kidding =) ) that would be awesome | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 84 Registered: 10-2011 |
Are we talking about a specific kind of dairy? Milk? Cream? Cheeese? Sour cream? Butter? Yogurt? Ice cream? I've gone all hungry now... | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 61 Registered: 9-2011 |
Are we talking about a specific kind of dairy? Milk? Cream? Cheeese? Sour cream? Butter? Yogurt? Ice cream? dairy in general, though some historians believe trade of fresh milk may have triggered a specific, relevant event I've gone all hungry now... nomnomnom | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4730 Registered: 9-2010 |
CHEEZBURGUR!!! =) Would they be from Europe: Geographically? Culturally? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1757 Registered: 9-2009 |
Were they living in Eastern Europe? The middle East? Western Europe? Somewhere overseas, belonging to a European empire? North Africa, by any chance? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2011 |
The present would have been different because this milky business... started a war/conflict? made someone wealthy? made someone poor? triggered a catastrophe of some sort? led to an important discovery/invention? made some important change to nature or a part of nature? became the basis for some important story/legend? helped make a special connection between nations/cultures? strengthened a culture's collective identity? changed the importance of milk forever? changed the importance of something else forever? something completely different, Jondahr is on a vast variety of WTs? | ||
| Potato (Potato)
New member Username: Potato Post Number: 955 Registered: 7-2010 |
Germs relevant? Poison relevant? Allergies relevant? Any other kind of pathogens relevant? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15455 Registered: 4-2010 |
The Black Plague? (wild guess) Are the Crusades relevant at all? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 62 Registered: 9-2011 |
CHEEZBURGUR!!! =) Would they be from Europe: Geographically? a few would have been Culturally? but mainly this Were they living in Eastern Europe? The middle East? Western Europe? Somewhere overseas, belonging to a European empire? this is closest, though not exactly fitting North Africa, by any chance? but not this The present would have been different because this milky business... started a war/conflict? one of the relevant events was a brief conflict made someone wealthy? made someone poor? triggered a catastrophe of some sort? didn't trigger it, but was unhelpful when one happened led to an important discovery/invention? made some important change to nature or a part of nature? became the basis for some important story/legend? helped make a special connection between nations/cultures? strengthened a culture's collective identity? the relationship between foods and identity was involved changed the importance of milk forever? changed the importance of something else forever? something completely different, Jondahr is on a vast variety of WTs? Germs relevant? Poison relevant? yope Allergies relevant? Any other kind of pathogens relevant? not AFAIK The Black Plague? (wild guess) Are the Crusades relevant at all? neither Note that there are at least two (somewhat interconnected) ways in which dairy foods affected these peoples' fate | ||
| Solitiare (Solitiare)
New member Username: Solitiare Post Number: 403 Registered: 7-2011 |
India relevant? Horses relevant? Camels? Yaks? (Desperation time!) Maybe goats? sheep? | ||
| Bodo (Bodo)
New member Username: Bodo Post Number: 2653 Registered: 2-2001 |
Is the genetic mutation that allows some people to tolerate milk relevant? Is this strictly dairy from cows (vs. some other beastie)? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 64 Registered: 9-2011 |
India relevant? nope Horses relevant? Camels? Yaks? (Desperation time!) Maybe goats? sheep? sheep were around, no on the others Is the genetic mutation that allows some people to tolerate milk relevant? for one of the events, yes Is this strictly dairy from cows (vs. some other beastie)? mostly from cows, yes | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1759 Registered: 9-2009 |
Did they have an intolerance to dairy products? Were they stranded on a deserted island? | ||
| Rbruma (Rbruma)
New member Username: Rbruma Post Number: 1760 Registered: 9-2009 |
Forgot to ask : Religion relevant? | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2011 |
Is this about Europeans developing a tolerance to drinking milk as adults by drinking lots of it? Do the events related have to do with situations where they had an advantage because they were tolerant to milk? Like a situation where dairy products were almost the only thing they could eat, and they would have starved to death otherwise? Or about the intolerants who actually DID starve to death? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 65 Registered: 9-2011 |
Did they have an intolerance to dairy products? no Were they stranded on a deserted island? yope for one of the events, explore Forgot to ask : Religion relevant? not particularly Is this about Europeans developing a tolerance to drinking milk as adults by drinking lots of it? only to establish that "they" were lactose tolerant Do the events related have to do with situations where they had an advantage because they were tolerant to milk? Like a situation where dairy products were almost the only thing they could eat, and they would have starved to death otherwise? Or about the intolerants who actually DID starve to death? none of these | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2011 |
Were they stuck somewhere else (other than an island), a place of limited space or exits? Did they live on an island? Are we talking about one group of people here? Or several different groups, serving slighlty - or very - different purposes in this story? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 67 Registered: 9-2011 |
Were they stuck somewhere else (other than an island), a place of limited space or exits? Did they live on an island? this Are we talking about one group of people here? "they" are a single group Or several different groups, serving slighlty - or very - different purposes in this story? a different group is involved in one of the events | ||
| Solitiare (Solitiare)
New member Username: Solitiare Post Number: 410 Registered: 7-2011 |
Scandinavia relevant at any point? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2011 |
Scandinavia relevant at any point? yes! | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2011 |
So, vikings, then? Iceland relevant? Greenland? The British Isles? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2011 |
So, vikings, then? indeed! Iceland relevant? Greenland? this The British Isles? | ||
| Solitiare (Solitiare)
New member Username: Solitiare Post Number: 412 Registered: 7-2011 |
Eric the Red? Leif Ericsson? et al. | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 71 Registered: 9-2011 |
Eric the Red? Leif Ericsson? Leif Ericsson is important for one of the events- the other one involves the Greenland Norse as a whole et al. | ||
| Jondahr (Jondahr)
New member Username: Jondahr Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2011 |
So, discovery of America relevant for one of the events? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2011 |
So, discovery of America relevant for one of the events? yes | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15531 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did the Norse not colonize America? Relevant? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2011 |
Did the Norse not colonize America? not permanently Relevant? yes | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2011 |
RECAP TO CLARIFY AND GET THINGS GOING: The world would be a very different place if the Greenland Norse had eaten less dairy. There's no way to know whether it would be better or worse, only different. It would be so because of two events: one being Leif Ericsson's ill-fated attempt to colonize Newfoundland (and why it didn't last), the other event something involving the Greenland Norse as a whole, that has yet to be determined. "Dairy" here refers to cow-based products in general, though we know there was a trade of fresh milk that caused a conflict with another relevant group of people. | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2011 |
RECAP TO CLARIFY AND GET THINGS GOING: The world would be a very different place if the Greenland Norse had eaten less dairy. There's no way to know whether it would be better or worse, only different. It would be so because of two events: one being Leif Ericsson's ill-fated attempt to colonize Newfoundland (and why it didn't last), the other event something involving the Greenland Norse as a whole, that has yet to be determined. "Dairy" here refers to cow-based products in general, though we know there was a trade of fresh milk that caused a conflict with another relevant group of people. | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2011 |
Sorry- Chrome froze there. Can a mod delete the double post? Thanks! | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 2292 Registered: 2-2011 |
were there no cows in Newfoundland? did they obtain milk from moose? buffalo? some kind of deer? is the reason they failed to colonise Newfoundland connected to the dairy eating? Also, I thought L. Ericsson landed in British Columbia? I thought someone before him arrived in Newfoundland? have I got that the wrong way round? did the indigenous population take all the dairy? and the newcomers couldn't get enough to eat? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2011 |
were there no cows in Newfoundland? no, the Vikings brought them did they obtain milk from moose? buffalo? some kind of deer? so no is the reason they failed to colonise Newfoundland connected to the dairy eating? indirectly, yes Also, I thought L. Ericsson landed in British Columbia? I thought someone before him arrived in Newfoundland? have I got that the wrong way round? you're thinking of the Russian expeditions did the indigenous population take all the dairy? not all of it and the newcomers couldn't get enough to eat? so not this | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4846 Registered: 9-2010 |
did the cows get seasick and die? o_o... | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 2313 Registered: 2-2011 |
cows...dairy... I'm thinking chhezburgurz | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4854 Registered: 9-2010 |
CHEEZBURGURZ!!!!!!!!!!! Where???? *lookz arownd* | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2011 |
did the cows get seasick and die? o_o... lol cows...dairy... I'm thinking chhezburgurz CHEEZBURGURZ!!!!!!!!!!! Where???? *lookz arownd* Nomnomnom! Though the indigenous people of Newfoundland could not haz cheezburger- or fresh milk for that matter. Neither party knew why at the time... | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15695 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they bring no female cows? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4872 Registered: 9-2010 |
if they didn't, then they brought steers...or bulls...or something...but not cows. Cows are she's. =) At any rate, they brought cattle whether they were female or not, right Tardigradeparty? *looks at teh t-kitteh* | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2011 |
Did they bring no female cows? no if they didn't, then they brought steers...or bulls...or something...but not cows. Cows are she's. =) At any rate, they brought cattle whether they were female or not, right Tardigradeparty? *looks at teh t-kitteh* that they did HINT: Why could the natives not haz cheezburgur? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15715 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they know how to milk the cows? How to turn that milk into other dairy products? Did they simply choose not to milk them? Because they found them sacred or something? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4883 Registered: 9-2010 |
dey haz no bunz foar cheezburgur? iz two bunz short of a cheezburgur? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2011 |
Did they know how to milk the cows? How to turn that milk into other dairy products? Did they simply choose not to milk them? Because they found them sacred or something? FA here, so no for all- by "haz cheezburgur" I just meant consume dairy products dey haz no bunz foar cheezburgur? iz two bunz short of a cheezburgur? maybe they were on Atkins :p | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15723 Registered: 4-2010 |
Did they actually have dairy products? Did they think they were inedible? Poisonous? Did they have other uses for them? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2011 |
Did they actually have dairy products? only through trade with the Vikings Did they think they were inedible? Poisonous? dingdingding! Did they have other uses for them? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 4896 Registered: 9-2010 |
teh natives thot cheez an othur milkstuffz wuz poizon? o.O why??? O_o I iz confuseded kitteh! needz cheezburgur...it nawt poizon... | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2011 |
teh natives thot cheez an othur milkstuffz wuz poizon? o.O why??? good question, explore O_o I iz confuseded kitteh! needz cheezburgur...it nawt poizon... nomnomnom | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15734 Registered: 4-2010 |
Were they lactose intolerant? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2011 |
Were they lactose intolerant? Yes! So now we've just about established event 1: the natives were lactose intolerant, tried some milk, and thought it was poisoned because they got violently ill from it. They then attacked the settlement in retaliation and drove the Vikings back to Greenland. So what happened between then and now? | ||
| Balin (Balin)
New member Username: Balin Post Number: 15909 Registered: 4-2010 |
Um...did someone else prove that the milk wasn't poisonous? The Pilgrims relevant at all? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 99 Registered: 9-2011 |
Um...did someone else prove that the milk wasn't poisonous? think later than this The Pilgrims relevant at all? but earlier than this | ||
| Solitiare (Solitiare)
New member Username: Solitiare Post Number: 509 Registered: 7-2011 |
Roanoke relevant? Jamestown? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 101 Registered: 9-2011 |
Roanoke relevant? Jamestown? before that- note we're still talking about the Vikings | ||
| Solitiare (Solitiare)
New member Username: Solitiare Post Number: 524 Registered: 7-2011 |
The vikings then went to Russia, where the natives are lactose tolerant? Or had they already been there? Ireland? Scotland? England? | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 2367 Registered: 2-2011 |
did the Vikings come back? bearing cheezburgurz? | ||
| Kayleetonkslupin (Kayleetonkslupin)
New member Username: Kayleetonkslupin Post Number: 5092 Registered: 9-2010 |
Shez kitteh: I hope so!!! =) | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 103 Registered: 9-2011 |
The vikings then went to Russia, where the natives are lactose tolerant? Or had they already been there? Ireland? Scotland? England? none of these places did the Vikings come back? bearing cheezburgurz? unfortunately I don't think the climate was suitable for the kind of grain farming that would be required for cheezburgur buns | ||
| Shez (Shez)
New member Username: Shez Post Number: 2404 Registered: 2-2011 |
did the Vikings come back but not to Newfoundland? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2011 |
did the Vikings come back but not to Newfoundland? no, still in Greenland at the time | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 922 Registered: 6-2003 |
The Vikings left Greenland because the climate changed to worse? Otherwise, if they gained a foothold in Newfoundland, they would have stayed there? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2011 |
The Vikings left Greenland because the climate changed to worse? well, for a certain definition of "left"... Otherwise, if they gained a foothold in Newfoundland, they would have stayed there? yes | ||
| Sundowner (Sundowner)
New member Username: Sundowner Post Number: 924 Registered: 6-2003 |
Is the idea that the world would be much different now if the Vikings had settled in Newfoundland? if there had been a growing and prosperous Viking colony in Northern America? if the colonization of North America would have started already in the 11th century? .. Danish language or culture would have a more prominent role in North America? (one particular aspect of it? one particular word?) .. there would be kingdoms in North America rather than republics now? .. the native Americans would not have been driven back to that extent, (as the Vikings were colonizers, rather than warriors)? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 118 Registered: 9-2011 |
Is the idea that the world would be much different now if the Vikings had settled in Newfoundland? if there had been a growing and prosperous Viking colony in Northern America? if the colonization of North America would have started already in the 11th century? .. Danish language or culture would have a more prominent role in North America? (one particular aspect of it? one particular word?) .. there would be kingdoms in North America rather than republics now? .. the native Americans would not have been driven back to that extent, (as the Vikings were colonizers, rather than warriors)? all of these are possible, and yeah, that's the difference talked about in the original post Sundowner pretty much nailed the conclusion, so now all we're missing is the second event. Googlepedia now permitted. | ||
| Docd (Docd)
New member Username: Docd Post Number: 183 Registered: 12-2004 |
Related to the Norse colonies having to abandon Greenland in the 15th century- the Little Ice Age having made it too cold to support livestock there? And the settlers being over-reliant on their livestock (rather than fish) for food? | ||
| Tardigradeparty (Tardigradeparty)
New member Username: Tardigradeparty Post Number: 129 Registered: 9-2011 |
Related to the Norse colonies having to abandon Greenland in the 15th century- the Little Ice Age having made it too cold to support livestock there? And the settlers being over-reliant on their livestock (rather than fish) for food? DINGDINGDING! SPOILER TIME: After doing some research for a class, I got to thinking about the ever-increasing body of evidence showing pre-Columbian European encounters with the North American continent. In particular, the Greenland Viking colony. It lasted over 400 years and repeatedly came into contact with Native Americans, then abruptly died off with little trace. If they had been able to establish a permanent presence in North America and initiate cross-Atlantic trade and diplomacy 500 years earlier than actually happened, how would the world have changed? Then it turned out that a large part of the problem stemmed from the Vikings' over-reliance on livestock and unwillingness to use a lot of local marine resources. In particular, when the first attempt was made to settle in North America, depending on which scholars you ask, a productive trade was interrupted by the natives either getting sick from milk they bartered for and destroying the Viking settlement thinking they had been poisoned or being scared off by the sight of dairy cows and destroying the settlement thinking they were a threat. The Vikings were able to go back to Greenland and hold on for hundreds of years, but then the Little Ice Age hit and rendered most of their (already-depleted by cattle grazing) farmland unusable and their trade routes blocked by ice. Due to cultural taboos and unwillingness to adopt Native American hunting methods that kept the Inuit alive at this time, and unable to return to Europe via the Arctic island-hopping method that they had always used, they quickly succumbed to starvation and conflict over dwindling resources. The only place they could have gone at this time? North America. |
