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Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Judaism has 3 major branches: Orthodox (most traditional), Conservative (middle of the road) & Reform (least traditional). Even if you didn't know that, you probably have a passive scrund about Conservative Judaism, because there's something about Conservative Judaism which is very surprising about any religion. What is it?(A passive scrund is a scrund you've never really thought about & don't even realize you believed until you learn -- to your surprise -- that it is false.)
Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

any of these relevant: sexual orientation? family relationships? romantic relationships? money? education? the sabbath? language? prayers? places of worship? relationships between non family members? jobs? music? rabbis? food? drink? holidays? holy days? rules? beliefs about the status of non-believers?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kdoc (Kdoc)
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Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 9:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
any of these relevant: sexual orientation? yes family relationships? yesromantic relationships? yesmoney? no education? no the sabbath? nolanguage? noprayers? yopeplaces of worship? noish relationships between non family members? just romantic onesjobs? nomusic? norabbis? yes food? no drink? no holidays? noholy days? norules? yesbeliefs about the status of non-believers? yope
Kyeannpepper (Kyeannpepper)
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Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relationships with non-believers relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kyeannpepper (Kyeannpepper)
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Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 9:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Relationships with non-believers relevant? yesish
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RECAP WHICH IS ALSO A HINT: You have already uncovered the following important facts: the puzzle involves sexual orientation, (Conservative Jewish) rabbis, rules, romantic relationships, family relationships, and relationships with non-believers (or, more accurately, relationships with non-Jews, since you don't to be a religious believer to count as a Jew). Put all these things together!!
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the perspective of people from a particular religion (not Jewish) relevant? Christian? Muslim?
Is the term conservative of particular relevance? Are certain people interpreting the use of 'conservative' incorrectly?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 9:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Is the perspective of people from a particular religion (not Jewish) relevant? no Christian? noMuslim?no
Is the term conservative of particular relevance? no Are certain people interpreting the use of 'conservative' incorrectly? no
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are Messianic Jews relevant?
Does the misconception have to do with food? Jesus? stereotypes? Israel?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 11:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Are Messianic Jews relevant? yope
Does the misconception have to do with food? noJesus? no stereotypes? noIsrael? no
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Relevant what Messianic Jews believe?
Relevant what others believe about Messianic Jews?
The fact that Conservative Jews accept and acknowledge the "hand of man" in the Scriptures relevant?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 4:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Relevant what Messianic Jews believe? yesish
Relevant what others believe about Messianic Jews? yes, but HINT: pursuing the Messianic Jews angle would be a blind alley
The fact that Conservative Jews accept and acknowledge the "hand of man" in the Scriptures relevant?yes
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still really wide open....hmm
Is the scrund related to gender equality in particular? Intermarriage? Same sex marriage? Grace before/after meals? The scriptures? How the scriptures were delivered by God?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 5:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Still really wide open....hmm
Is the scrund related to gender equality in particular? see later answersIntermarriage? yes Same sex marriage? yes Grace before/after meals? noThe scriptures? no How the scriptures were delivered by God? no
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. The scrund is that gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies for lesbian and gay Jews? Or that gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to exist at all?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 6:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. We sure are!! The scrund is that gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies for lesbian and gay Jews? That's HALF the scrund. Remember, religious intermarriage is also involved in the puzzle. Or that gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to exist at all? No, that's not surprising nowadays.
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so then in theory there are gay and lesbian rabbis that are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies between Jewish gays/lesbians and non-jewish gay/lesbians. Is that it? Incidentally the Conservative Jewish community still prohibits sex between gay Jewish men (and presumeably Jewish gay men and non-Jewish gay men that they perform commitment ceremonies for).
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 8:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Ok, so then in theory there are gay and lesbian rabbis that are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies between Jewish gays/lesbians yesand non-jewish gay/lesbians. no Is that it? Incidentally the Conservative Jewish community still prohibits sex between gay Jewish men (and presumeably Jewish gay men and non-Jewish gay men that they perform commitment ceremonies for).
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Incidentally the Conservative Jewish community still prohibits sex between gay Jewish men (and presumeably Jewish gay men and non-Jewish gay men that they perform commitment ceremonies for)I gather that there are a variety of positions within CJ on this.
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let me be more clear, just to make sure I am not being misunderstood. Gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies. Those ceremonies may involve a Jewish gay or lesbian person, and a gay or lesbian non-Jewish person. (I'm not asking, I'm telling.) They may also involve two gay or lesbian Jewish people. Does the scrund involve the former circumstance? Just making sure.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 9:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
Let me be more clear, just to make sure I am not being misunderstood. Gay and lesbian rabbis are permitted to perform commitment ceremonies. yes Those ceremonies may involve a Jewish gay or lesbian person, and a gay or lesbian non-Jewish person. Not according to my source, a Conservative Jew who told me that Conservative Jewish rabbis are not permitted perform marriages between Jews & non-Jews(I'm not asking, I'm telling.) They may also involve two gay or lesbian Jewish people. yes Does the scrund involve the former circumstance? yes Just making sure
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wasn't talking about marriage, but rather commitment ceremonies, so perhaps we are both correct after all. However, my source indicates that Conservative Jewish rabbis can perform marraiges between Jews and non-Jews (that are not gay or lesbians).
Nevertheless, let us proceed.
The information I have indicates that rabbis cannot marry gay or lesbian Jews, but if your information says otherwise, that could be part of the scrund indeed.
You said that religious intermarraige is part of this as well. What other religion, might be involved or is it all other religions? One in particular? If so, relevant which one?
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 11:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)
I wasn't talking about marriage, but rather commitment ceremonies, so perhaps we are both correct after all. However, my source indicates that Conservative Jewish rabbis can perform marraiges between Jews and non-Jews (that are not gay or lesbians). My source says that it's up to the individual CJ rabbi whether to perform same-sex marriages, but that they are NOT allowed to perform religious intermarriages, same sex or otherwise.
Nevertheless, let us proceed.
The information I have indicates that rabbis cannot marry gay or lesbian Jews, but if your information says otherwise, that could be part of the scrund indeed.
You said that religious intermarraige is part of this as well. What other religion, might be involved or is it all other religions? yes One in particular? If so, relevant which one?

********* SPOILER ****************
A Conservative Jewish friend told me that CJ rabbis are allowed to perform same-sex weddings between 2 Jews but not to perform religious intermarriages, same-sex or otherwise. This struck me as a surprising contrast & thus revealed what I thought was my passive scrund. But I didn't check what my friend said, & now Wildcard says she's wrong. So I'll $spoil the puzzle for now, check out the situation with the rabbi at my university tomorrow, & get back to you. In the meantime, a new puzzle awaits you!!
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just checked with a rabbi, who told me that the Conservative Jewish rabbinical board of decision-makers has approved resolutions both supporting & withholding support from rabbis who officiate at same-sex weddings, which leaves each rabbi free to make up his own mind. But officiating at interfaith marriages is not permitted for Conservative Jewish rabbis (although it is for Reform Jewish ones.)
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My source (which is admittedly dated 1995) says: The Leadership Council of Conservative Judaism has a different sociological approach to this issue than does Orthodoxy, although agreeing religiously. In a press release it has stated:

"In the past, intermarriage...was viewed as an act of rebellion, a rejection of Judaism. Jews who intermarried were essentially excommunicated. But now, intermarriage is often the result of living in an open society....If our children end up marrying non-Jews, we should not reject them. We should continue to give our love and by that retain a measure of influence in their lives, Jewishly and otherwise. Life consists of constant growth and our adult children may yet reach a stage when Judaism has new meaning for them. However, the marriage between a Jew and non-Jew is not a celebration for the Jewish community. We therefore reach out to the couple with the hope that the non-Jewish partner will move closer to Judaism and ultimately choose to convert. Since we know that over 70 percent of children of intermarried couples are not being raised as Jews...we want to encourage the Jewish partner to maintain his/her Jewish identity, and raise their children as Jews." LEADERSHIP COUNCIL OF CONSERVATIVE JUDAISM, Statement on Intermarriage, Adopted March 7, 1995
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm hardly an expert, to put it mildly, but I gather that the rabbi I talked with has information that is less than 17 years old. Also, the press release above does not say that CJ rabbis may marry Jews to non-Jews.
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I cannot claim to be an expert either. Seems strange that they would accept it and then do a 180. I guess I assumed that because they accepted it, they would allow it to be done. My bad. Sorry if I messed up your puzzle.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The rabbi also said that it's common for different viewpoints to be endorsed on many issues, leaving individual rabbis to decide for themselves.
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did see some of that on other issues. The idea that they would pass two opposing measures that essentially allows individual rabbis to decide for their own circumstances, is very interesting. Never heard of that. Anyway, I apologize again.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why apologize? What you said was very interesting!!
Wildcard (Wildcard)
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Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I feel like I messed up your puzzle. Anyway, I found the example I was thinking of:
In December 2006, a responsum was adopted by the Committee that approved the ordination of gay and lesbian rabbis and permitted commitment ceremonies for lesbian and gay Jews (but not same-sex marriage), while maintaining the traditional prohibition against gay sex between men. An opposing responsum, that maintained the traditional prohibitions against ordinations and commitment ceremonies, was also approved. Both responsa were enacted as majority opinions, with some members of the Committee voting for both (that's the part that kills me). This result gives individual synagogues, rabbis, and rabbinical schools discretion to adopt either approach. Fancy that.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 12:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So that's another passive scrund about Judaism -- it has a decision procedure that endorses both of two opposing views.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way, the rabbi asked me what I needed the information for, and I asked him whether he had ever heard of lateral puzzles. He said no. But when I said, "Such as 'A man walks into a bar and asks for a glass of water. The bartender takes out a gun and points it at him," etc., the rabbi had heard of that. He just didn't know the term 'lateral puzzle.'
Solitiare (Solitiare)
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Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BTW, a couple of years ago, I went to the wedding of a young cousin. Her mother is Christian, her father Muslim, and she married a Jew! (None of them especially serious about religion.) They dodged the question by getting a judge to officiate. Lovely wedding - 3 different types of food, 3 different types of music. Fathers of the bride & groom made toasts in Farsi & Hebrew, respectively. Talk about a melting pot, huh?
They now have a little daughter - Lord knows how she is being raised!
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Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Which Lord knows? I mean...oh nevermind...it would be another puzzle.
Nimue (Nimue)
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Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Solitare: This delightful anecdote will be EVEN MORE so if you describe the food on detail, esp. the wedding cake(?). Pictures will be especially appreciated.
Gregoryuconn (Gregoryuconn)
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Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With NYS having legalized same-sex marriage last year, my (conservative) rabbi is trying to get our temple's by-laws changed to allow same-sex couples to be recognized by the synagogue. New York's law specifically included provisions saying religious organizations did not have to even recognize same-sex marriages, yet alone perform them. I don't know if the same would apply if other states or if conservative congregations have to recognize same-sex couples who were lawfully married outside the synagogue. Anyway, he doesn't perform interfaith marriages because that is forbidden, but says he often directs interfaith couples to the reform rabbi in the area. Although he abides by the ruling prohibiting interfaith weddings, he says it's very frustrating, because it often leads to interfaith couples who want to be married by a rabbi instead opting to be married by a priest, and then wind up raising their kids Christian instead of Jewish. Most reform rabbis will perform interfaith weddings, although it is a source of contention whether they can/should co-perform them with someone of another religion.

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