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Archive through December 31, 2004Felicia Nimue Ackerm22 12-31-04  6:58 pm
Archive through January 02, 2005Hannah Kinghern22 1-02-05  6:56 pm
Archive through January 05, 2005Felicia Nimue Ackerm22 1-05-05  7:56 pm
Archive through January 10, 2005Felicia Nimue Ackerm22 1-10-05  10:05 pm
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Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay - from the top of my head without reading back - does the emotion resemble any more commonly experienced emotions?

Does it involve a sense of any of these things:

power?
helplessness?
completeness?
vulnerability?
change?
enlightenment?
ignorance?
rebirth?
cleansing?
metamorphosis?
fragmentation?
connection?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

okay how about these:
fear?
disgust?
anger?
hate?
disdain?
irritation?
exasperation?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay - from the top of my head without reading back - does the emotion resemble any more
commonly experienced emotions?

Does it involve a sense of any of these things:

power?
helplessness?
completeness?
vulnerability?
change?
enlightenment?
ignorance?
rebirth?
cleansing?
metamorphosis?
fragmentation?
connection? NO TO ALL!!

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:14 pm:


okay how about these:
fear?
disgust?
anger?
hate?
disdain?
irritation?
exasperation? NO TO ALL!!!!
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does it involve a sense of:

ridiculousness?
comedy?
farce?
surrealness?
emptiness?
fullness?
tragedy?
dispair?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

or ..

irony?
wonder?
awe?
puzzlement?
confusion?
dismay?
prejudice?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:40 pm:


does it involve a sense of:

ridiculousness?
comedy?
farce?
surrealness?
emptiness?
fullness?
tragedy?
dispair? NO TO ALL!!:O:O:O:O

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:43 pm:


or ..

irony?
wonder?
awe?
puzzlement?
confusion?
dismay?
prejudice? NO TO ALL!!!:):):):)
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

or ..

mania?
death?
zombifiedness?
freakingoutness?
disembodiment?
cannabalism?
hypnosis?
a feeling of scraping the barrel?

Is it any use trying to compare this emotion to conventional feelings and experiences?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

or ..

mania?
death?
zombifiedness?
freakingoutness?
disembodiment?
cannabalism?
hypnosis?
a feeling of scraping the barrel? NO TO ALL!!:O:O:):)!!!!

Is it any use trying to compare this emotion to conventional feelings and experiences? Yes. It's a new variant of a common emotion--you just haven't mentioined the common emotion yet
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the common emotion / experience one of these and if not can you indicate if any are warmish?

peace?
tranquility?

comfort?
joy?
Bliss?
Happiness?
gladness?
pleasure?
ecstasy?

something orgasmic?
tittilation?
feeling "horny"?

Sadness?
melancholia?
hopelessness?

loneliness?
detached?
disassociated?
solitude?

distress?
uneaseiness?

Anxiety?
Apprehension?

repulsion?
repugnance?

feeling of violation?

distrust?

Compassion?
empathy?

sense of belonging?
friendliness?
feeling of generosity?
sociability?

selfishness?

irritation?
anger?
rage?
fury?
violent?

Is it a group emotion - shared in common by those present?

Does it involve feelings about / toward others or just self?

Is it experienced by both male and female?
Can children experience it?

Is it a motivating emotion?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...

Rapture?
Insecurity?
Boredom?
Delight?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:11 am:


Is the common emotion / experience one of these and if not can you indicate if any are
warmish?

peace?
tranquility?

comfort?
joy?
Bliss?
Happiness?
gladness?
pleasure?
ecstasy?

something orgasmic?
tittilation?
feeling "horny"?

Sadness?
melancholia?
hopelessness?

loneliness? YES!!!!! no to all the others on your list, but YES, it's (an unusual type of) loneliness!!
detached?
disassociated?
solitude?

distress?
uneaseiness?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

istress?
uneaseiness?

Anxiety?
Apprehension?

repulsion?
repugnance?

feeling of violation?

distrust?

Compassion?
empathy?

sense of belonging?
friendliness?
feeling of generosity?
sociability?

selfishness?

irritation?
anger?
rage?
fury?
violent? no to all 4

Is it a group emotion - shared in common by those present? no

Does it involve feelings about / toward others yes or just self? no
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it experienced by both male and female? yes
Can children experience it? yes

Is it a motivating emotion? it can be

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 02:26 pm:


...

Rapture? no
Insecurity? no
Boredom? no
Delight? no
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the emotion akin to 'culture shock'? the kind of loneliness one might feel when everyone around you has a different belief system? or completely different way of life?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you say that it was unlikely that we had heard of this particular term for this unusual kind of loneliness?

Is it related at all to the psychiatric state of "Nihilism"?

Is it a feeling whereby it seems that nobody else exists and that the subject is the only sentient thing in existence?

A feeling that nothing exists other than self?

Complete alienation?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:48 pm:


is the emotion akin to 'culture shock'? yesish the kind of loneliness one might feel when everyone
around you has a different belief system? yesish. You're nearly there:):):):) Just one wore wrinkle. . . or completely different way of life? no

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:19 pm:


Did you say that it was unlikely that we had heard of this particular term for this unusual kind of
loneliness? yes

Is it related at all to the psychiatric state of "Nihilism"? no

Is it a feeling whereby it seems that nobody else exists and that the subject is the only
sentient thing in existence? no

A feeling that nothing exists other than self? no

Complete alienation? yope
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

religious alienation?
spiritual alienation?
philosophical alienation?

I'd better ask - is alienation a relevant word?

The wrinkle - is this to do with a positive side to the feeling?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, and by the way ..

"loneliness?" .." YES!!!!!"


For a moment I thought Freesia may have been kidding us
:)
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

y Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:11 pm:


religious alienation? no
spiritual alienation? no
philosophical alienation? no

I'd better ask - is alienation a relevant word? yope

The wrinkle - is this to do with a positive side to the feeling? no

By Simon Downham (Beroean) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:36 pm:


Oh, and by the way ..

"loneliness?" .." YES!!!!!"


For a moment I thought Freesia may have been kidding us
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

so she was in a situation where everyone around her had a different belief system? one that she found difficult to accept? or one that held no attraction for her at all? this led to a kind of loneliness? a feeling of walking 'out of step' with all those around? that many people would not like because they would feel uncomfortable being the only one of a kind? many would want to conform to the majority view? but some people would enjoy because they like to be non-conformist?

if there is more - can you tell me the question we should be answering?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc) on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:15 pm:


so she was in a situation where everyone around her had a different belief system? Yes. one that
she found difficult to accept? yes or one that held no attraction for her at all? yesthis led to a kind of
loneliness? a feeling of walking 'out of step' with all those around? yres that many people would not
like because they would feel uncomfortable being the only one of a kind? yes many would want to
conform to the majority view? yes but some people would enjoy because they like to be
non-conformist? yes


if there is more - can you tell me the question we should be answering?
*****SPOILER ****
British sociologist Eileen Bennett reaearched her excellent book The Making of a Moonie by interacting directly with Moonies as well as by reading about them. She soon experienced an emotion that she called intellectual loneliness. Everyone she dealt with either subscribed to Moonie ideology or subscribed to the conventional wisdom that Monnies were some sort of evil & crazy "cult". Sensible EB simply considered the Unification Church a perfectly legitimate religion whose world-view she didn't happen to share. So she experienced intellectual loneliness--an emotion I experience a lot & LOVE (because it makes me feel special). Thanks for sticking with it everyone & for solving it, Hanbnah, & please check out my replacemnent puzzle at the bottom of the page N.B. Thought for the day: A cult is the other guy's religion.
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 8:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting .... I wonder how many of us embrace a religion just to get away from 'intellectual loneliness'..
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess it depends on your milieu--most people I know are atheists.
Hannah Kinghern (Kdoc)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It might also be that some of us embrace atheism to get away from the same intellectual loneliness..
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does it seem more logical to embrace what is true and if this fails to satisfy itellectual companionship, to seek this intellectual fulfillment from sources that do not compromise truth?
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course Simon is right, but I think Hannah is talking about what people actually do, not what ideal rational agents do.And of course she's right that people are just as apt to embrace atheism in order to conform as to embrnce religion in irder to conform.
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 12:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The argument I would make, Simon (being less tactful than Felicia Nimue), is that with regard to religion truth is completely beside the point (whether you're an atheist or not)--it comes down to belief. Atheists certainly don't have "proof" there is no God (proving a negative being pretty much impossible, after all), but it's what they believe, and they believe it just as fully as those who believe there is at least one God. To put it another way, I think that if it were to be proven beyond anyone's doubt that everything in the Bible (both testaments--heck, even all three) was false (or at least of human origin), the vast majority of non-atheists would continue to believe in God.

Something else to consider is that atheism is not an "anti-religion" per se, but simply a different belief system (in effect, a different religion).

I suppose what I'm saying is that without faith, there is no religion. Similarly, I think most (or even all) atheists would say they'd rather be that than a hypocrite.

Agnostics, on the other hand, are simply unwilling to admit what they believe (even to themselves):O.

Please note that with the above my intent is neither to justify nor impugn any belief system; they're simply my thoughts on religion. I often wonder if anyone's done a study to determine if there are more/fewer atheists in non-Judeo/Christian parts of the world. I've even heard (although I haven't checked it out) that there is a genetic pre-disposition in humans to believe there is a God (not that I'm implying that atheists are mutants :O).
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Felicia Nimue is not tactful!!!! Horrors!!!! To prove it, let me ask the following. If atheists belive "on faith" that there is no God, then do adults believe "on faith" that there is no Santa Claus, no Great Pumpkin, no gremlins, no Bogeyman, etc.? Sometimes you can hace excellent reason to believe something does not exist.
Eliot (Eliot)
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

They do not believe in Santa Claus etc. because they have played this character for others to believe in. If you play God, does that necesarily mean there's no God?

BTW, I'm just arguing for arguments sake. No seriousness intended. :)
Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abject apologies for implying (or even saying outright) that you might be anything even remotely resembling or approaching tactful, Ms. Felicia Nimue, even at your current spectacular level of sophistication. Please forgive me--it won't happen again.

Or then again, it might, given that my lack of sophistication is likely the equal of your own spectacular level. :O

And I never said atheists were being arbitrary or had no reasons for their belief, I simply said when you boil it all down the very last bit of anything solid that's left is belief, since there isn't really proof either way. It's one of the reasons I'm always perplexed when I hear of "scientific" explanations/research intended to prove the accuracy of the Bible--it's missing the point, to me (and it smacks of a lack of faith). An atheist hears the dogma and thinks "Whoa, I can think of many other explanations for that stuff." instead of "Hey, that's really cool, it resonates with me: I grok that." The world-view of an atheist, whether genetically inclined or environmentally assumed, inclines her or him to believe there is/are no deity/deities. Plus, emotionally, atheism is easier--in the same way that it might be easier to not jump out of a plane when skydiving.

I also believe that any institutionalized religion is going to have to be able to adapt to new knowledge and discoveries (but not, necessarily, new social mores) if it's going to survive.

On the other hand, if you could just prove to me that there's no Santa Claus...
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Philip Larkin called religion "that mystical, moth-eaten brocade/Created to pretend we never die." Whether or nor you agree with him, it's pretty easy to see that for some people religion is easier to believe in than atheism, because the former offers the comforting assurance of immortality. In fact, what it's easy or hard to believe depends on one's temperament--different strokes for different folks.
Jens Weber (Sundowner)
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 2:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've even heard (although I haven't checked it out) that there is a genetic pre-disposition in humans to believe there is a God (not that I'm implying that atheists are mutants.

There is indeed the notion that religion came up as a necessary consequence of consciousness. Human beings (and perhaps some other developed species as well) started to notice relations between different observations and tried to identify a cause for every effect they observe. And as many effects were hard to understand, the idea of mystical forces, or gods, behind them came up. This returned some comfort to the disconcerted conscious humans, because to gods one could pray, and therefore be active instead of having to surrender to the randomness of nature. (It's another story that this activeness is an illusion: even in our days a lot of politicians, for instance, have the illusion that they could do something about unemployment .. and they do what they think to do and get paid for it..)

So, in consequence, religion prevented the planful acting human from becoming mad about all the uncertainties and things that can neither be explained nor influenced. Some people even say that without gods humankind never would have reached the level of development it has now.

From the original meaning of the word, religion (ligare = to glue together) has a social function. It keeps people together because it establishes common norms of behavior. So any system of common values and beliefs shared by a group of people, without being seriously questioned (that is, "believed"), may be called a religion. (therefore, a religion does not necessarily imply the belief in the existence of a God -- actually whether some value is related to God or not is sometimes hard to tell: Section 242 of the Penal Code exactly maps Exodus 20:15: Thou shouldst not steal.) From that point of view, atheism is a religion as well.

Philip Larkin is wrong, of course, but this can be excused. :)

It is, in general, difficult to approach a religion from a logical point of view. As mentioned above, religion is about believing or not believing -- this might explain the "intellectual loneliness". The only sensible approach I could imagine is from an efficiency point of view. (a system of beliefs is sensible if it helps the society to develop .. Exodus 20:15 is therefore sensible because it protects individual property and gave rise to the liberals :))

As for the Unification Church, one might think of "nomen est omen". (moon = luna) :)
Felicia Nimue Ackerman (Nimue)
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lots of people aren't religious. And the original meaning of a word doesn't always tell you what is means now. "Good-bye' was originally a contraction of 'God be with ye'.' In Malory's time, 'discover' meant 'reveal." Word meanings can change.

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