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Archive through December 22, 2004Paul Sloane22 12-22-04  10:08 am
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(Stuccosalt)
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are 'they' the composers of the carol?
Does money factor into their wish for us not to have it?
You mentioned the carol serving a purpose other than being a song - is this purpose contained within the song (i.e. something to do with the lyrics or music of the song)? Or does it involve something the song was used for (i.e. in a musical, advertising jingle, this sort of thing)?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stucco,

Are 'they' the composers of the carol?
YES

Does money factor into their wish for us not to have it?
NO

You mentioned the carol serving a purpose other than being a song - is this purpose contained within the song (i.e. something to do with the lyrics or music of the song)?
NO

Or does it involve something the song was used for (i.e. in a musical, advertising jingle, this sort of thing)?
YES
Ed Mason (Logician)
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the carol 'Walking in a Winter Wonderland'? 'Away in a Manger'? 'The 12 Days of Christmas'?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ed,

Is the carol 'Walking in a Winter Wonderland'? 'Away in a Manger'? 'The 12 Days of Christmas'?

None of those

Paul
Sam Carroll (Greenboi)
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 5:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul,
Are "they" the creators of "Silent Night"?
Sam
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 9:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sam,

Are "they" the creators of "Silent Night"?

NO

Paul
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the carol something obviously religion (ie metion jesus directly or refer to the proper meaning of christmas)

something to do with the new more secular meaning of christmas(o' Christmas tree, santa claus is coming, ext.)

something that refers to winter or holidays in general without refrencing christmas?

is a wish of joy/happiness what they wish but don't want? a wish about receiving presents?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Drew,

is the carol something obviously religion (ie metion jesus directly or refer to the proper meaning of christmas)
IT IS RELIGIOUS

something to do with the new more secular meaning of christmas(o' Christmas tree, santa claus is coming, ext.)
NO

something that refers to winter or holidays in general without refrencing christmas?
NO

is a wish of joy/happiness what they wish but don't want? a wish about receiving presents?
NO

PAUL
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is it something like: Peace on Earth?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Simon,

Is it something like: Peace on Earth?

NO

Paul
Drew Sollenberger (Sollen)
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

good will to men? only you don't want men to be so poor that they need to the help of good will (the charity) to survive
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Drew,

good will to men? only you don't want men to be so poor that they need to the help of good will (the charity) to survive
NO

Paul
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 8:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If "it" is a song, how do we "have" it?
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is the song...
Away in a Manger? Oh Come, All Ye Faithful? O Little Town of Bethlehem? Hark! The Herald Angels Sing? Angels, From the Realms of Glory? Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer? Silent Night? Angels We Have Heard on High? Jingle Bells? Good King Wenceslas? I Saw Three Ships? Joy to the World? We Three Kings of Orient Are? Little Drummer Boy? I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day? From Heaven Above to Earth I Come? Do You Hear What I Hear? Ding Dong! Merrily On High? The Holly and the Ivy? We Wish You a Merry Christmas? The First Noel? The Christmas Song? Must Be Santa? I'll be Home for Christmas? Carol of the Bells? Christmas is Coming? Still, Still, Still? Come On, Ring Those Bells? Frosty the Snowman? Jingle Bell Rock? The Holiday Season (or Happy Holiday)? The 12 Days of Christmas? C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S? Jolly Old Saint Nicholas? Mistletoe and Holly? Oh Holy Night? Here Comes Santa Claus? All I Want For Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth? Oh Christmas Tree? Deck the Halls?the Friendly Beasts? Santa Claus Is Coming To Town? Up On The Housetop? Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer? Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas? The Most Wonderful Day Of The Year? White Christmas? Rocking Around the Christmas Tree? Over the River and Through the Woods? Sleigh Ride? Nuttin' For Christmas? Let There Be Peace On Earth? Star of the East? I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus? Winter Wonderland? Silver Bells? When A Child Is Born? It Came Upon A Midnight Clear? Let It Snow? Birthday of a King? Here We Come A-Wassailing? A different one?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shawn,

If "it" is a song, how do we "have" it?

IF EVERYONE CAN FREELY USE IT, HOW CAN WE NOT HAVE IT?

PAUL
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SHAWN,

Is the song...
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing?

YES!

PAUL
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 5:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Woubit said this:


The trouble is that I may have far more lyrics than I need The compost heap gets deeper by the year. Around here, we sing:

Hark! The herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King.
Peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconciled."
Joyful all ye nations rise,
Join the triumph of the skies;
With the angelic host proclaim,
"Christ is born in Bethlehem!"
Hark! The herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King."

Christ by highest Heaven adored,
Christ the everlasting Lord.
Late in time, behold Him come,
Offspring of a virginís womb.
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see,
Hail the incarnate Deity,
Pleased with man as man to dwell,
Jesus our Emmanuel.
Hark! The herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King."

Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace,
Hail the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings,
Risen with healing in His wings.
Mild He lays His glory by,
Born that man no more may die.
Born to raise the sons of earth,
Born to give them second birth.
Hark! The herald angels sing,
"Glory to the newborn King."


But, as with almost all popular songs, there are very many variations. Charles Wesley's original words were:

Hark, how all the welkin rings,
"Glory to the King of kings;
Peace on earth, and mercy mild,
God and sinners reconcil'd!"

Joyful all ye nations, rise,
Join the triumph of the skies;
Universal nature say,
"Christ the Lord is born to-day!"

Christ, by highest Heaven ador'd,
Christ, the everlasting Lord:
Late in time behold him come,
Offspring of a virgin's womb!

Veil'd in flesh, the Godhead see,
Hail th' incarnate Deity!
Pleas'd as man with men to appear,
Jesus, our Immanuel here!

Hail, the heavenly Prince of Peace,
Hail, the Sun of Righteousness!
Light and life to all he brings,
Risen with healing in his wings.

Mild he lays his glory by,
Born that man no more may die;
Born to raise the sons of earth;
Born to give them second birth.

Come, desire of nations, come,
Fix in us thy humble home;
Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
Bruise in us the serpent's head.

Now display thy saving power,
Ruin'd nature now restore;
Now in mystic union join
Thine to ours, and ours to thine.

Adam's likeness, Lord, efface,
Stamp thy image in its place.
Second Adam from above,
Reinstate us in thy love.

Let us then, though lost, regain,
Thee, the life, the inner man:
O, to all thyself impart,
Form'd in each believing heart.


Is this relevant?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shawn,

Is this relevant?

NO. THE DETAIL OF THE WORDS IS NOT RELEVANT.

PAUL
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are "they":
The creators of Hark the Herald Angels sing?
Anybody else?
The creators of anything else significant?
More than ten people?
Politicians?
Members of christendom?

Is "it":
The song "HTHAS"?
The lyrics?
The music?
Some other aspect of the song?
Something specifically associated with the song?
The Nativity?
Christmas?
Jesus birthday being celebrated on 25/12/ or 12/25 (depending on your view over the pond)?

Did "they" not want HTHAS to be made available?
(Stuccosalt)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the fact that music / lyrics were written by different people at different time relevant?
Simon Downham (Beroean)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The fact that the original lyrics were changed relevant?
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

SIMON

Are "they":
The creators of Hark the Herald Angels sing?
YES

Anybody else?
The creators of anything else significant?
More than ten people?
Politicians?
Members of christendom?
NO

Is "it":
The song "HTHAS"?
The lyrics?
The music?
YES

Some other aspect of the song?
Something specifically associated with the song?
The Nativity?
Christmas?
Jesus birthday being celebrated on 25/12/ or 12/25 (depending on your view over the pond)?
NO TO THOSE

Did "they" not want HTHAS to be made available?
IN A SENSE THAT IS CORRECT

PAUL
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

STUCCO AND SIMON,

is the fact that music / lyrics were written by different people at different time relevant?
YES

The fact that the original lyrics were changed relevant?
YES

PAUL
Paul Sloane (Admin)
Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*** SPOILER ***

I think it is time to clear this one up and move on from Christmas:

The music to Hark the Herald Angels Sing was written by Felix Mendelssohn in 1840 and was expressly intended for secular use. The words were written by Charles Wesley in 1739. He wanted slow solemn music for his words. In 1855 when both Menelssohn and Wesley were dead, William Cummings put the words and music together despite clear indications that neither author or composer would have approved.
Shawn Franchi (Doctapeppa)
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 4:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it was I who did most of the work in solving this puzzle. I managed to figure out which song it was, and.... well, I know I did something else....

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