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Tim A. Dowd (Bodo)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought they were from Job...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Woow....

Any relation to a decision to travel somewhere?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:59 pm:

His health? no ability to have children? this is vaguely relevant, yes the very fact he married Catherine? but this is more to the point

was this circumstance permanent? transitory? poor Arthur died two years after his marriage; no one was therefore able to discover whether the "presence" of the "bear" was of any use

astrology involved? not really, but...

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:02 pm:

The "somewhat involved" other person was Catherine of A.? she was. Also various courtiers, bishops, heralds, lords, commoners, villeins, villains, stewards, bast... well, you get the picture

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:17 pm:

Was the circumstance related to the wedding ceremony? not to the ceremony itself, but to what preceded it...

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:40 pm:

So the circumstance was somehow influenced by the Great Bear, right? had the Great Bear not existed, the "circumstances" of the ceremonial preceding Arthur's marriage to Catherine would have been rather less propitious than it actually was

If so, could changing a time when something relevant had to happen (like postponing an event) make any difference? no Was it a real threat (if I can call it a threat) or an imaginary one this one (as a fear from an unfavourable position of stars)? but not this kind of thing

And the thing avoided was rather a minor nuisance, right? it would have been so regarded, yes Was it actually avoided? see above

So, do we have to find out what the circumstance was, right? yes Is there any other thing for us to reveal? not really

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:13 pm:

The sparks from the title... are they related to somebody burned at a stake? Something burning? A fire? see below

Would it be possible for a similar situation to happen nowadays? I very much doubt it

By Tim A. Dowd (Bodo) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:18 pm:

I thought they were from Job... indeed they are :) "Man is born to trouble, as the sparks fly upwards" is a line from the Book of Job, which also mentions (or according to certain eminent authorities does not mention) the Great Bear constellation, and in particular one of the stars in it... Google away, but look for Roman rather than Arabic references; the Authorised Version may be your best bet :)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:06 pm:

Any relation to a decision to travel somewhere? no
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And, since it's my puzzle :)

Nopery Popery
Catherine of Aragon,
Henry Eight wedded her -
Anne Boleyn next.
Noncatholicity
Would not have come about
Had not our monarch been
So over-sexed.
Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My knowledge of the Tudor history (or is this even Tudor history?) is quite poor. Cricket, I can atleast drop a couple of names... Has this got to do with producing a male heir?
I dont even know who I'm talking about though
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Arjun Rangarajan (Jun) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:15 am:

My knowledge of the Tudor history (or is this even Tudor history? yes :) - the Tudor dynasty began in 1485 with the accession of Henry VII after the battle of Bosworth, and ended in 1603 with the death of Elizabeth I.) is quite poor.

Cricket, I can at least drop a couple of names... so I perceive :) But it is a remarkable fact that very few great cricketers were called Henry, or even Elizabeth.


>Has this got to do with producing a male heir? well, this was certainly one of the chief concerns of royal families at the time of the puzzle, and the Tudors were no exception. The reason for the relevance of the Great Bear certainly had to do (among other things) with the ability of kings and future kings to produce children, preferably male children, yes

I don't even know who I'm talking about though currently, we are concerned with Prince Arthur, who was heir apparent to Henry VII, and who was at the time supposed to produce a son to continue his father's dynasty.
Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So did Prince Arthur manage to produce a son?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Arjun Rangarajan (Jun) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:46 am:

So did Prince Arthur manage to produce a son? he did not. There is considerable scholastic debate as to whether his marriage to Catherine was even consummated - certainly, when Catherine married Henry, she was declared by Pope Julius II still to be a virgin. Not that His Holiness knew any more about the matter than anyone living except Catherine herself, but in those days the children of the ruling houses of Europe were used by their parents as a kind of cross between a bargaining counter and a chess piece.

I should perhaps hint at this point that the Great Bear was important not as an astronomical or astrological thing in itself, but as a... well, I guess "distraction" is the right word. Consider carefully what Prince Arthur might have become...
Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Henry VIII, heir to the throne of Henry VII? And then there would have been no Anglican church? Arthur was so busy admiring the stars that he forgot to do the needful to produce heirs to his dynasty?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Arjun Rangarajan (Jun) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:08 am:

Henry VIII, heir to the throne of Henry VII? Henry VIII is not actually relevant, except that he has served to help identify his brother Prince Arthur, who until he died was Henry VII's heir. Also, Henry VIII has helped identify Catherine of Aragon, his sister-in-law and then his wife. But you can forget about him from now on :)

And then there would have been no Anglican church? probably not, but this does not matter (at least, not to the puzzle - I know that it matters quite a lot to some of the people who have been kind enough to drop in :))

Arthur was so busy admiring the stars that he forgot to do the needful to produce heirs to his dynasty? not this kind of thing - Arthur was, by some accounts, more than happy to lie back and think of England :) The relevant event of this puzzle is one that occurred very shortly before Arthur and Catherine were married.
Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good chance for me to read up some English history. Will be back...
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Arjun Rangarajan (Jun) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 01:22 am:

Good chance for me to read up some English history. Will be back... I had better go to bed anyway :) I should perhaps mention, however, that although the Tudor period did not produce much in the way of great cricketers, Sir Francis Drake was one of our more successful slow bowlers.
Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)



Your best cricketer for a long time I guess. Until Arthur Conan Doyle and PG Wodehouse came along? :)

Arjun Rangarajan (Jun)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 5:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And now my contribution to the red ink...

Missed

The sun in the heavens was beaming,
The breeze bore an odour of hay,
My flannels were spotless and gleaming,
My heart was unclouded and gay;
The ladies, all gaily apparelled,
Sat round looking on at the match,
In the tree-tops the dicky-birds carolled,
All was peace -- till I bungled that catch.

My attention the magic of summer
Had lured from the game -- which was wrong.
The bee (that inveterate hummer)
Was droning its favourite song.
I was tenderly dreaming of Clara
(On her not a girl is a patch),
When, ah, horror! there soared through the air a
Decidedly possible catch.

I heard in a stupor the bowler
Emit a self-satisfied 'Ah!'
The small boys who sat on the roller
Set up an expectant 'Hurrah!'
The batsman with grief from the wicket
Himself had begun to detach --
And I uttered a groan and turned sick. It
Was over. I'd buttered the catch.

O, ne'er, if I live to a million,
Shall I feel such a terrible pang.
From the seats on the far-off pavilion
A loud yell of ecstasy rang.
By the handful my hair (which is auburn)
I tore with a wrench from my thatch,
And my heart was seared deep with a raw burn
At the thought that I'd foozled that catch.

Ah, the bowler's low, querulous mutter
Points loud, unforgettable scoff!
Oh, give me my driver and putter!
Henceforward my game shall be golf.
If I'm asked to play cricket hereafter,
I am wholly determined to scratch.
Life's void of all pleasure and laughter;
I bungled the easiest catch.

-- P.G. Wodehouse

Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anything to do with the consummation of their marriage?

Did this event you mention happen the very day of the wedding ceremony?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

is the star Arcturus aka the Bear Hunter? Hunting involved?
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Atrhur's health involved?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 08:48 am:

Anything to do with the consummation of their marriage? not really, no

Did this event you mention happen the very day of the wedding ceremony? no

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:11 am:

is the star Arcturus aka the Bear Hunter? yes, indeed :) Hunting involved? no
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:22 am:

Atrhur's health involved? no. Rather simpler than that...
Alizon (Alizon)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

did the event happen days earlier? weeks? months?
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, and while we're here, thanks to Arjun for a wholly unexpected, but nonetheless welcome, piece of weightless poetry - it is not often that we receive a contribution on cricket from California in January :)
David Burn (Woubit)
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By Alizon (Alizon) on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:27 am:

did the event happen days earlier? this one, and not very many days :) weeks? months?